Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: Xtrozero

So 3 simple words... The Big Bang.... Once we had Gods for everything we did not understand, 100s of them, so what makes this different in we can not understand the big bang and what is actually outside of our universe, so we say "God did it" just like we once thought the wind or a planet was a God.

I guess straw man arguments have something in common with lies. A book of popular quotations lists this one among them: “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it often enough, many will believe it.”

Repetition is key in brainwashing, conditioning and programming the human mind.

Joseph Goebbels said that quote first then Hitler adopted it too.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: Xtrozero

So 3 simple words... The Big Bang.... Once we had Gods for everything we did not understand, 100s of them, so what makes this different in we can not understand the big bang and what is actually outside of our universe, so we say "God did it" just like we once thought the wind or a planet was a God.

I guess straw man arguments have something in common with lies. A book of popular quotations lists this one among them: “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it often enough, many will believe it.”

Repetition is key in brainwashing, conditioning and programming the human mind.

Joseph Goebbels said that quote first then Hitler adopted it too.

The reason this happened is because People don't bother to think.

Our generations is called many Things like: Generation Zap and wiki knowledge…

Our genesration only beleives what Our so called experts say.

There is no indipendent thinking anymore.

originally posted by: spy66

So how do we adress intelligence when it comes to finite and the infinite..?

If God always was and always is. God is infinite. Before God created the Heaven and the Earth there was only God.

We can't, so the debate is moot. You can quote the bible all day, but you still can never know God or what is outside of our universe and the bible can not explain it. Isn't this the same as what I said when I wrote..

So God is everything and nothing at the same time. We are not even talking intelligence here other than a force across everything, infinite universes type everything.

How can Nothing create a physical mass… You probably would have to be very intelligent to be able to answer that question.
The other issue you would face is that you have to show it.

You are right, and I said we can not explain what is outside of our universe, but you missed my point when I said that in everything we can not explain we make into a God...Today we know a lot so many Gods have come and gone, but we still keep the one to explain the explainable... very convenient isn't it.

In one sentence you say things are unknowable and then you talk about an unknowable force we call God as knowable in your religious phrases.
Which one is it...

originally posted by: spy66

The reason this happened is because People don't bother to think.

Our generations is called many Things like: Generation Zap and wiki knowledge…

Our genesration only beleives what Our so called experts say.

There is no indipendent thinking anymore.

I agree, but it is also how our brains work...

The 1st time people look at ad, they don’t see it.
The 2nd time, they don’t notice it.
The 3rd time, they are aware that it is there.
The 4th time, they have a fleeting sense that they’ve seen it before.
The 5th time, they actually read the ad.
The 6th time, they thumb their nose at it.
The 7th time, they get a little irritated with it.
The 8th time, they think, “Here’s that confounded ad again.”
The 9th time, they wonder if they’re missing out on something.
The 10th time, they ask their friends or neighbors if they’ve tried it.
The 11th time, they wonder how the company is paying for all these ads.
The 12th time, they start to think that it must be a good product.
The 13th time, they start to feel the product has value.
The 14th time, they start to feel like they’ve wanted a product like this for a long time.
The 15th time, they start to yearn for it because they can’t afford to buy it.
The 16th time, they accept the fact that they will buy it sometime in the future.
The 17th time, they make a commitment to buy the product.
The 18th time, they curse their poverty because they can’t buy this terrific product.
The 19th time, they count their money very carefully.
The 20th time prospects see the ad, they buy what it is offering.

a reply to: Xtrozero

You can quote the bible all day, but you still can never know God or what is outside of our universe and the bible can not explain it. Isn't this the same as what I said when I wrote..

So God is everything and nothing at the same time. We are not even talking intelligence here other than a force across everything, infinite universes type everything.

That is correct. I have no more special Powers than you have. I only have my mind.

But you have to agree that finite is not infinite….? Right....

If you agree to that we are back to the question of: How did nothing create something (Finite - finite time)…….

Our universe is not infinite like you have stated in a different reply further back. Because Our universe is not infinite since it is expanding… You would have to explain how Our universe is infinite and at the same time it is expanding.

Something that is infinite must take up all Space there is and should not expand…. Dont you agree..?

If Our universe is expanding there must be a larger void then Our universe……. If not Our universe would never expand.

originally posted by: spy66

If you agree to that we are back to the question of: How did nothing create something (Finite - finite time)…….

Our universe is not infinite like you have stated in a different reply further back. Because Our universe is not infinite since it is expanding… You would have to explain how Our universe is infinite and at the same time it is expanding.

Actually our universe (space/time) is infinite. The mass of the universe is what is expanding. Space doesn't stop just in front to the big bang cloud expanding at the same rate. Space time is infinitely in front of it. At the big bang space/time was instantly infinite.

How does one explain something from nothing, no time, infinite etc we can't so we say God did it...see my point?

a reply to: Xtrozero

I liked that one

originally posted by: spy66

I liked that one

I almost bought a ShamWow... I guess my intellect is a little higher than the average...

a reply to: Xtrozero

Actually our universe (space/time) is infinite. The mass of the universe is what is expanding

Ok. Lets talk about the mass of the universe then. Since Space/time is infinite how did the mass come to be..?

You are already onto two different Properties: Mass and Space time. Which existed before the mass of Our universe..? You would have to answer With Space time right... since you stated that void is infinite…?

Which is finite and which is infinite..? You have to see the issue you have already here right...?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: spy66

I liked that one

I almost bought a ShamWow... I guess my intellect is a little higher than the average...

Yes it is.... You are a challange without dou

originally posted by: spy66

Which is finite and which is infinite..?

The energy and mass of the universe is finite, what we started with at the big bang is what we will end up with if there is a big crunch, or just keeps expanding until every particle is so far from anything else the universe becomes a dark nothing. The black hole paradox is a wrinkle here but what happens there could very well be explained with quantum entanglement, so in the end energy is still the same.

Space/time is different, that is what we mean when we say universe, and that was instantly infinite.

A singularity is something outside of our space/time, so we can not explain it, but it may have happened. We really can not explain something before the universe happened, so we can only start at a point within the inflation period.

If we wanted to rename singularity as God, I don't have a problem with that, but I think if we put God in that roll then the term intelligence would be so far removed as to what God would actually be that the word really means nothing in terms to describing God. God would be an unknowable force that to even use a word like intelligence to describe God is laughable and infinitely (there is that word again) more incorrect than suggesting a super nova is just a pop in space.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Xtrozero

You can quote the bible all day, but you still can never know God or what is outside of our universe and the bible can not explain it. Isn't this the same as what I said when I wrote..

So God is everything and nothing at the same time. We are not even talking intelligence here other than a force across everything, infinite universes type everything.

That is correct. I have no more special Powers than you have. I only have my mind.

But you have to agree that finite is not infinite….? Right....

If you agree to that we are back to the question of: How did nothing create something (Finite - finite time)…….

Our universe is not infinite like you have stated in a different reply further back. Because Our universe is not infinite since it is expanding… You would have to explain how Our universe is infinite and at the same time it is expanding.

Something that is infinite must take up all Space there is and should not expand…. Dont you agree..?

If Our universe is expanding there must be a larger void then Our universe……. If not Our universe would never expand.

A black hole that lost its cookies. No way to say what was on the other side.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Actually our universe (space/time) is infinite. The mass of the universe is what is expanding

Okay so Space time is infinite and the mass of Our universe is finite….. Our finite mass was at some period of time formed…? correct.

What Space time formed the mass…? That is the big question….

You mention the big crunch/black hole Paradox. My question is: For this to be true there have to be some parameters that have to be forfilled. For a black hole to exist don't you need finite, dont you need matter…?

For a black hole to exist it would already have to be after the creation of finite. You can not have a black hole event unles there is finite present.....?

Dont you agree…?

How can a black hole exist if there are no finites…?

Within a infinite Space time there can not exist a black hole. You would need finite matter to have the combination that creates a black hole. Don't you agree…?

originally posted by: spy66

For a black hole to exist it would already have to be after the creation of finite. You can not have a black hole event unles there is finite present.....?

Dont you agree…?

How can a black hole exist if there are no finites…?

What is outside of out universe? That is like saying what is outside of our space/time? What if there are infinite universes, with infinite ways for physics to work, infinite dimensions, where time does not exist...no start or ending...always been there and will always be there. We can not comprehend this since that is not how "our" universe functions. A black hole is said to be a singularity that pushes out of our space/time while all that mass and energy is still within our universe due to quantum entanglement.

If you want to call that God, so be it...lol But that is not the God of the bible...

a reply to: Pachomius

To quote one of my favorite religious leaders from my young days: "GOD IS"

That is what Pastor John Cherry used to say whenever people would question God's existence, motives, etc...

What is boils down to is, What we think, doesn't affect the going's on in the universe, so don't be so full of yourself.

a reply to: Xtrozero

What is outside of out universe? That is like saying what is outside of our space/time?

That is correct. And that is the big question….. And we see Space time as only finite time. And we presume that,... That time will go on for ever..... But to be truthfull we know it wont. Do to the expansion….

What if there are infinite universes, with infinite ways for physics to work, infinite dimensions,

If there were different physical Dimensions Close to Ours we would probably know it by Our observations. Our universe would not expand Equaly in all directions if that was the case....

But when we talk about dimentions there can only be two. The infnite and the finite dimentions. All finite dimetions from the Foundation up must be 3D. Because they have to exist within a infinite Space time. Anything that exists within the infinite must fundementally have to be 3D. They must have Three dementions.

There can not exist infinite dementions becasue only one dimention can take up all Space there is at one time. Any other dimention can not be infinite don't you agree…?

If you don't agree. How can different dimentions be absolute infinite..? Explain that to me….

So when God created the Heaven and The Earth, God only created two different dimentions…. Right...? The Heaven and The Earth....

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Xtrozero

What is outside of out universe? That is like saying what is outside of our space/time?

That is correct. And that is the big question….. And we see Space time as only finite time. And we presume that,... That time will go on for ever..... But to be truthfull we know it wont. Do to the expansion….

Well space time in our universe had a beginning and may have an ending too. If we have a big crunch and all the matter of the universe comes back to a singularity then our space time ends. Even God said there was a beginning, right?

I said that our space time was infinite, I didn't say its been here forever or will be here for ever.

If there were different physical Dimensions Close to Ours we would probably know it by Our observations. Our universe would not expand Equaly in all directions if that was the case....

No way to know...we might be infinity overlapping and never touching...You want to understand something not really understandable, so you can't say something like..."we would probably know"

But when we talk about dimentions there can only be two. The infnite and the finite dimentions. All finite dimetions from the Foundation up must be 3D. Because they have to exist within a infinite Space time. Anything that exists within the infinite must fundementally have to be 3D. They must have Three dementions.

There can not exist infinite dementions becasue only one dimention can take up all Space there is at one time. Any other dimention can not be infinite don't you agree…?

I disagree

The 11th dimension is a characteristic of spacetime that has been proposed as a possible answer to questions that arise in Superstring Theory, which involves the existence of 9 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time.

11...1000... millions... infinite...who knows

So when God created the Heaven and The Earth, God only created two different dimentions…. Right...? The Heaven and The Earth....

That statement is like saying God created the universe and the planet earth...

So if God created our dimension then he did that outside of our dimension. If God is all, everything...then he is infinite everything which means everything is infinite.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Well space time in our universe had a beginning and may have an ending too. If we have a big crunch and all the matter of the universe comes back to a singularity then our space time ends. Even God said there was a beginning, right?

If our universe is expanding without friction at present time.. How will it crunch..? How does that theory hold merits…?

The only way that would happened is if something is pulling at Our universe from its core…. What would that be..? We dont even know where the center of Our universe is.....
What force would be able to create that compression and force all that expanded to retract back to its core..? First it lets it self expand and then it is capable of compression… That is something isent it...?

What force is ackting as a restriction when it comes to Our universes expansion…? Can you answer that..? What is holding the expansion back... What Gravity can you mention…?

What Gravity that we know of would have this function…?

It would mean that this core would have more Power then Space time it self….. How do you argue that..?

Basically With Your theory time should be slowing Down,,,,, right..? SInce there is a Gravity force pulling against the expantion…..

At what point will time stop and retrackt…? That is basically what you are saying will happened….

We should already see some of that retraction already dont you think…?

When it comes to a cruch we are talking about forces…..A probobaly vaccum type force. If there is a Power of Gravity that exists that will pull Our universe back to a singularity. We should see evidence of that already now. because that singularity should aready be forming as we speak as a New universe……..

a reply to: carewemust


Dear carewemust, you are not into inane verbiage all in the cause of pompous self-vanity: I salute you!


Tell me, do you have any critique on the first line of my exposition?

Dear posters here, try this procedure to save time and labor, in proving God exists, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.


1. We know that there is existence - do you concur with me? If not, you are an ignorant dummy.

2. We know that there are entities in existence with a beginning - do you concur with me? If not, you an ignorant dummy.

3. We know that entities with a beginning need an entity without beginning to bring them into existence - do you concur with me? If not, you are an ignorant dummy.

4. We know that we are entities with a beginning - do you concur with me? If not, you are an ignorant dummy.

5. Wherefore we are the evidence to the existence of an entity without beginning which brought us into existence - do you concur with me? If not, you an ignorant dummy.

6. Therefore: God exists in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning - do you concur with me? If not, you are a stubbornly insane ignorant dummy.


Okay, tell me which item, No. 1 to No. 6, you don't concur with me on.

I am so happy that you are not one of them asinine self-vain endless talkers all in self-empty grandeur, to the wastage of ATS' bandwidth.

Don't go away.


This ATS forum is very receptive of all kinds of honest intelligent productive thinking and writing - thanks to ATS founders, owners, and operators.

a reply to: spy66

Conformal cyclic cosmology is intersting to consider.

Penrose's basic construction[5] is to connect a countable sequence of open Friedmann–Lemaître–Robertson–Walker metric (FLRW) spacetimes, each representing a Big Bang followed by an infinite future expansion. Penrose noticed that the past conformal boundary of one copy of FLRW spacetime can be "attached" to the future conformal boundary of another, after an appropriate conformal rescaling. In particular, each individual FLRW metric [displaystyle g_[ab]]g_[ab] is multiplied by the square of a conformal factor [displaystyle Omega ]Omega that approaches zero at timelike infinity, effectively "squashing down" the future conformal boundary to a conformally regular hypersurface (which is spacelike if there is a positive cosmological constant, as is currently believed). The result is a new solution to Einstein's equations, which Penrose takes to represent the entire universe, and which is composed of a sequence of sectors that Penrose calls "aeons".