Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Pachomius

Hypothetically, God is the cause of all things. (8 words)
notice the bold words: God is
tada! done, proven!
Universe: Everything; including the space in which everything exists.
Okay. Now what?

Why couldn't everything have always existed? Why do you think that it needed to be created, when obviously you don't think "God" needed to be created?

Dear readers, please read the text below under the caption [For your orientation], so that you will know what the thread is all about.
_________________________

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Pachomius

Hypothetically, God is the cause of all things. (8 words)

notice the bold words: God is

tada! done, proven!

Universe: Everything; including the space in which everything exists.

Okay. Now what?

"Okay, Now what?"


Now we go together from the concepts of God and universe in our mind, to the objective world outside and independent of our mind, to look for evidence to God's existence.

Why go outside our mind to the objective world to search for evidence?


What is your answer, dear Peeple?




[For your orientation]

For God, my definition is the following: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning. -Pachomius [17 words]

For universe, my definition is the following: universe in concept is everything observable to man, in particular to scientists to study - most importantly in regard to its origin.

This is the title of the thread from Pachomius:

Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.


And the OP is as follows:

[ posted on Jun, 25 2020 @ 01:12 PM ]
On the assumption that mankind sincerely seeks knowledge, I submit that it is possible for any person to come to resolve the issue God exists or not, with honest intelligent productive thinking, i.e., thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas. Now, honest intelligent productive thinking on the said issue must start with working together to concur on the concept of God. What do you dear colleagues here say?

[End of post]

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Pachomius

Hypothetically, God is the cause of all things. (8 words)
notice the bold words: God is
tada! done, proven!
Universe: Everything; including the space in which everything exists.
Okay. Now what?

Why couldn't everything have always existed? Why do you think that it needed to be created, when obviously you don't think "God" needed to be created?

Because there are things which have a beginning, like babies and roses and you with your nose on your face - and the universe, of course.

Dear everyone, now things will get honest intelligent and productive - so, no need for escapists to bring in their trolls and their bots.

a reply to: Pachomius

What? Me?

I don't go outside looking for objective proof of God - at all. And I don't know why I would because the only way one can know for sure is
Orgasmic epiphanies
Overwhelming feeling of love
Followed by sobbing like a baby "I love you so much, I'm not good enough"

That's kind of private, subjective, but in the end the only proof that counts and matters.
And I was already blessed with that so I don't need to look for anything proving it to anybody.
It's kind of not my problem if someone asks for objective truth they obviously didn't have that and I am not the one to tell God what to do, you know.
Sure I think the world would be better, but if God doesn't want that I have to trust that there's a reason for that.

Add: but you can bet that if I ever find the recipe on how to make that happen, I will be out there yelling it from the roof tops.
I'm working on it

a reply to: cooperton

See, not all Gnostics are on the same page, just as Gospel of Thomas stands apart from other Gnostic(Nag Hammadi) texts.

The Gospel of Thomas is a group of sayings/and or dialogs with the disciples, not a public discourse.

The first Gnostic I mentioned in the above post was very big at pointing this verse out over and over again:

Matt 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;

though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

15For this people’s heart has become calloused;

they hardly hear with their ears,

and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts

and turn, and I would heal them.’

a reply to: Blue Shift

Why couldn't everything have always existed? Why do you think that it needed to be created, when obviously you don't think "God" needed to be created?

Key word in my post: Hypothetically. Which I substituted for the words in concept.

In concept, and hypothetically any thing can be written about or discussed. That does not necessarily imply a personal belief.

There are so many who wants to reason the existance of God but no one knows Howe to start. Not even With the description given in scripture.

God always was and always is...…

God existed before the creation of heaven and Earth. Before finite matter as we know it was formed.

If God is infinite: Always was and always is, God is absolute.

We humans use Our finite knowledge of finte matter and energy to try and argue the existance of God.... And there are so many Clues but non of you have the knowlege to think of one…..

We think we know so much about time, but can not grasp absolute time. Or in other Words...., time as a absolute constant. We cant grasp this because in Our finite universe there are no absolute constants!!

But then again: We forget that God existed before he created the Heaven and the Earth. Our finite universe……

……………………………………………………………..

We are so Bright that we think that the singularity was infinite small when it formed Our universe. When People beleive this it just shows how intelligent People really are. When Our professors state that Our universe was formed by a singularity that was infinitly small. People dont really grasp the meaning of infinite.

Infnitly small is the same as non existing ,because how small is really infinitly small..? Or it could also be infinitly large. Depending on what paradocs you want to use.

- The issue is: if the sigularity was infinitly small…... in what Space was it infinitly small..? That Space existed before the singularity…. WHen you use the term infinitly small you must have a referance to make that scale. If you don't how do you make the claim that the singularity was infinitly small?

It must have been very small compared to something else at the exact time and Space.

Calling the singularity infinitly small is the same as saying Our professors dont have a damn Clue about the singularity at all. It cant be observed and it cant be tested and it can not be calculated. We have no Equation that can calculate the exact size the singulatiry was when it was formed….. That is why the theory of it being infnite is being used.

There is only one Space that can be infinite. There is only one Space that can be a absolute constant and absolute empty. And that Space existed before God created the heaven and the Earth.

a reply to: Pachomius

You

Why go outside our mind to the objective world to search for evidence?

Why would you need to search for God if you walk, talk, and have a relationship with God.

Love your neighbor as yourself, but its up to one’s self to seek a personal relationship with God granted by free will.

But keep quoting your definition. That is religion. Knowing God is to want to walk with God and behave in a way that doesn’t separate you from God. It’s not a matter of behaving for reward. It’s trusting in a spiritual kingdom of God more than a physical corrupt and broken world. A broken world man has created by being blessed with free will.

a reply to: Peeple

but you can bet that if I ever find the recipe on how to make that happen, I will be out there yelling it from the roof tops.

I feel ya!

Check out this shameless plug for my own work: Evangelist's Quest

Thomas asked for proof .
As for bible miracles ( raising the dead ) Pounding on a mans chest who had a heart attack and restarting his heart .
CPR a man who drowned breathing the Breath of life into him .

Lovs and fishes ( hey every one who brought food lest share it . Many bring much more then they can eat as in any outing event . )

Exactly what miracles did a god or Jesus do that can not be explained in any other way BUT miracle .
Ps Gods direct intervention did not even slow peoples killing down .
heck god told them to Kill JERICHO .

How about a Flood care to explain how one man put 2 of every species on earth onto ONE boat ?
over 5 MILLION species and using the most are small wont work .

You do realize its not just the animals of land but thous of sea and water as NO a DROP of fresh WATER on the planet .
Most fish can not live in salt or live in fresh depending on the fish .And ALL ants bees and such CAN NOT live with JUST two .

Nothing in the Bible that proves even One Miracle .

O about MARY in a time when women would get Stoned to death For sex out side marriage is darn good motivation to say OOO but god made me preggers .

Joseph was already the man she was going to marry looks like old boy just could not wate and loved the girl and did not want her dead so they came up with god did it . After all Just who checked her ?

originally posted by: pthena

Matt 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13This is why I speak to them in parables

Imagine a civilization of caterpillars that have forgotten that their birthright is to become a butterfly. They are all too enamored with their life as a caterpillar to hear nature's call of transformation. One day a caterpillar came without negligence to the natural way and taught the fellow caterpillars about a Passing over into a new existence. To be born again. Most were simply thrilled to hear the story, but some took the words to heart and sought out the famed chrysalis that the awakened caterpillar had told them about.

Surely enough, after liquefying their own body inside a cocoon, they emerged with wings and flew away. But who could believe such good news?

Cant even prove the Bible was any thing from a god .
Odd how every book was named after the MEN not god . who wrote it .
heck even the book ist self was named after a KING do think god would have took issue with any man taking credit for his works ha ?

It's true, I do exist


a reply to: Pachomius

a reply to: cooperton

Imagine a civilization of caterpillars that have forgotten that their birthright

I don't have to imagine, because I remember watching what appeared to be a mass migration of Cutworms (moth larvae), long ago, when I was young. They hatched near a pond, travelled en masse through an intervening wild oat field which had recently been mowed down as fire control. Then they got to the closed end of our cul de sac. The call went out through the children's network, "Alarm! The cutworms are coming! The cutworms are coming!"

We started grabbing them up in jars and buckets and empty waxed cardboard milk cartons in order to save neighborhood flower gardens from destruction.

In the larval stage, caterpillars just eat and eat and eat. That's their only drive. They don't tell each other to do it. Their parents don't instruct them or anything. When they've eaten enough and their hormones change they spin their own cocoons to begin their pupal stage. They don't quest for the great chrysalis. They just become.

=======================
I tell you a horror story!

One day, long before wikipedia or other quick sources of information, besides physical encyclopedias, I was writing a story. The story involved a school boy who sometimes took teacher instructions quite literally. One day the teacher was recommending the observation of nature; the plants and the animals.

The student was sent to the corner after he went to the window to watch the butterflies.

Anyway, in the process of writing the story, I fell into a reverie.
I imagined being a caterpillar, eating and eating. I felt a terrible pain on my back, and was temporarily paralyzed. When the paralysis lifted I went back to eating.

~~~~~~~~~~(dreamlike change of scene)~~~~~~~~~~

My consciousness was now outside, observing the movements of the chrysalis. The membrane split .... and out came a half dozen wasps.

Out of my reverie screaming "What! What the...! Aaaah!"

I ran barefoot down the road to the library four or five blocks away. In the reference section, I found a big book on insects and looked through it to find out if such a thing could happen. The Librarian told me, "You have to leave, no shoes."

"Okay, I found out what I needed."

"Are you all right?" she asked "Do you want me to call someone for you?"

"No." I replied "I should be all right eventually. Thank you." and then I returned slowly to my apartment.

---------------------
I'm not sure if this is the same species or not but what I read was something like this:
Ichneumonidae#Reproduction_and_diet

Some ichneumonid species lay their eggs in the ground, but most inject them either directly into their host's body or on its surface. After hatching, the ichneumonid larva consumes its still living host. The most common hosts are larvae or pupae of Lepidoptera,...
...
Ichneumonids use both idiobiont and koinobiont strategies. Idiobionts paralyze their host and prevent it from moving or growing. Koinobionts allow their host to continue to grow and develop. In both strategies, the host typically dies after some weeks, after which the ichneumonid larva emerges and pupates.

So if a Lepidoptera caterpillar became a host for the wasp eggs, and then spun a cocoon soon afterwards ... Yeah, that horror could actually happen.

a reply to: Pachomius

Now we go together from the concepts of God and universe in our mind, to the objective world outside and independent of our mind, to look for evidence to God's existence.

Why go outside our mind to the objective world to search for evidence?

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”

― Philip K. Dick, I Hope I Shall Arrive Soon

I saw this on an ATS member's signature; seems about right to me.

Just over a year ago, I was rather disturbed by things I'd read on ATS; like there is no reality, only illusion. I was specifically rather upset that some people doubted the reality of Time. So I did a thought experiment, resulting in this story: Re-Orientation.

While the protagonist is in an amnestic state, he's acting upon a delusional set of premises. The glasses, hat, bicycle, and guard rail are actual real objects, even though he is not aware of them, or even remembers them. That would be the objective World; outside of his thoughts or delusions.

As for Time; I realize that I only understand it as it relates to movement, distance, and angles of movement; as part of velocity and acceleration. As a thing in and of itself apart from movement, I've got no clue. I heard an astrophysicist describe Time once as related to gravity. I understood that only for as long as I was listening. Once the Youtube video was over, so was the understanding.

I think that movement is evidence of Time.

I suppose that hypothetically speaking one could say creation is evidence of a creator.

a reply to: pthena

Time is a relativistic expression that functions as a framing device, just like mass and distance. In a word it is context. Our awareness of its quantity does not affect the reality of its quality. That's how you know it's not an illusion. Just ask anyone who has spent years in a coma how it feels to skip a chapter. The same can not be said for the vast majority of so called supernatural occurrences which can't be measured the way you could count the seconds on a clock and watch rain drops demonstrate gravity.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Willtell

I don’t believe this...

Maybe extraterrestrials don’t visit earth because earth is a run away biological weapon created by extraterrestrials?

I would ask Pachomius if aliens could create an earth from energy, if those aliens have become gods. But it just would get ignored.

Useless to bring in extraterrestrials, because of the communication gap with them from us - so don't waste time with them unless you want to go into fiction entertainment business.

Exchange of thoughts among us humans is adequate to decide on God exists or not.

Just keep to my thread here.


[For your orientation]

For my definition of God: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning." -Pachomius [17 words]

And for universe, my definition is the following: universe in concept is everything observable to man, in particular to scientists to study - most importantly in regard to its origin.

This is the title of the thread from Pachomius:

Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.


And the OP is as follows:

[posted on Jun, 25 2020 @ 01:12 PM]
On the assumption that mankind sincerely seeks knowledge, I submit that it is possible for any person to come to resolve the issue God exists or not, with honest intelligent productive thinking, i.e., thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas. Now, honest intelligent productive thinking on the said issue must start with working together to concur on the concept of God. What do you dear colleagues here say?

a reply to: Pachomius

You seem to think very highly of human psychology to declare we are sufficient for answering such a staggering riddle. In my experience humans derive great satisfaction from building puzzles no one can solve, and imagining fantastic solutions that can't be tested in a realistic study environment is part of the fun.

a reply to: Pachomius

Like it or not. Earth could be an alien science fair project. And if extraterrestrials created earth and the life on earth, does that make them gods.