Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: TzarChasm

Do you think humans created this puzzle?

The riddle of God is may be existential.

It has a lot of elements to it other than a belief in God.

The study of original, nontheistic Buddism, is a lesson I think that the human condition is wrapped up in any God philosophy.

The very nature of human beings as well and other things

But I do agree we won't settle this here and now. What will settle this?

Only

Time

WillTell

Yes, humans created the puzzle. Humans are the only creature on the planet who need a destiny and an afterlife. The concept of "god" didn't exist on Earth for 4 billion years before humans finally learned how to bury their dead.

originally posted by: cooperton

The only functional answer is that both were presented simultaneously. The framework of the life cycle of a chicken only works if the egg is also existent. Therefore, yet again, step-by-step random mutations as proposed by evolutionary theory could not have made it (because an egg is worthless without a chicken to turn into, and a chicken cannot come to be without an egg) . Instead, it must have been designed and implemented for both the chicken and the egg to be within its genetic code from the beginning.

But did God make the egg first to hatch the first chicken, or did he make the chicken first to lay the first Egg... asking for a friend...

Also, did he make them taste good so we could happily eat them?

originally posted by: TzarChasm
Humans are the only creature on the planet who need a destiny and an afterlife.

Don't leave the leaves out of this. When a leaf dies it falls to the ground and then fertilizes and reintegrates with the tree that gave it life.

originally posted by: Pachomius

What are your definitions of randomness and of probability, in re the coming to existence of chicken and egg, as to avoid the appeal to yes, randomness and probability: so that they are agents of entities with beginning coming into existence from a prior status prior of yes nothingness, like the chicken with egg already inside itself.

If you can't understand me, then just tell me what is to you the most probable understanding you have for being a literate persona, okay?

So if we talk species in general at what point is a chicken a chicken? One could argue that a chicken has always been a chicken....If a chicken looked left and right 300,000 years he would see all chickens. If we moved forward 300,000 years the chicken during that time would still see chickens in both direction, but the chicken 600,000 before will most likely not see the chicken as a chicken that the future chicken sees as a future chicken while both agreeing the past chicken is still a chicken.

Rinse and repeat this for billions of years... so the reality is a chicken can be a dinosaur or some future creature, BUT is still a chicken in either case for the current chickens. It is only with far future or far past chickens who would see a difference.

BTW the chicken came first....

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: TzarChasm
Humans are the only creature on the planet who need a destiny and an afterlife.

Don't leave the leaves out of this. When a leaf dies it falls to the ground and then fertilizes and reintegrates with the tree that gave it life.

It's interesting how you replied without actually acknowledging anything I said. Unless somehow trees are a metaphor for predeterminism and a world beyond the veil where our spirit stuff goes because that was a weird analogy but who am I to judge.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Technically the chicken started being an actual chicken when it stopped being a lizard. Because dinosaur is by definition a reptilian creature, particularly a scary one.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Technically the chicken started being an actual chicken when it stopped being a lizard. Because dinosaur is by definition a reptilian creature, particularly a scary one.

Tell that to the chicken back then... the dino looked like a chicken to it.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Technically the chicken started being an actual chicken when it stopped being a lizard. Because dinosaur is by definition a reptilian creature, particularly a scary one.

Tell that to the chicken back then... the dino looked like a chicken to it.

I was going to say arguing with chickens is nuts but then I remembered how I spend my free time here.

Dear readers, please read the text below under the caption [For your orientation], so that you will know what the thread is all about.
_________________________



My concern here is again and again that posters don't want to connect to the thread, they just want to exhibit their wasteful learning to titillate their vanity, of no use toward the resolution of the issue, God exists or not.


If you any posters here care to connect to the issue of this thread, I again propose that we first work together to concur on definitions of words, like of God and of existence, of course you can bring in also universe.

Why concur on definitions of words? Because we cannot otherwise than use words in order to communicate among ourselves, or else incur the insanity of each one talking past everyone's else head.


So, here is my definition of God: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

Existence in concept is the default status of reality.

For universe, see below under the caption, [For your orientation], anyway I will reproduce it here for your convenience:

Universe in concept is everything observable to man, in particular to scientists to study - most importantly in regard to its origin.


Now, dear readers, we can all sit back and witness who posters here are into insanity and who are getting connected to the thread.




[For your orientation]

For my definition of God: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning." -Pachomius [17 words]

And for universe, my definition is the following: universe in concept is everything observable to man, in particular to scientists to study - most importantly in regard to its origin.

This is the title of the thread from Pachomius:

Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.


And the OP is as follows:

[posted on Jun, 25 2020 @ 01:12 PM]
On the assumption that mankind sincerely seeks knowledge, I submit that it is possible for any person to come to resolve the issue God exists or not, with honest intelligent productive thinking, i.e., thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas. Now, honest intelligent productive thinking on the said issue must start with working together to concur on the concept of God. What do you dear colleagues here say?

Addendum



You cannot extinguish existence unless you are existing and stronger than existence.


And if you insist that nothingness exists even before existence, then you had better jump into the lake and extinguish yourselves - because you don't deserve to exist for being insane altogether, not even in an insane asylum because you are wasting precious resources needed by sane folks.

a reply to: Pachomius

Telling people to kill themselves is bad form.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Telling people to kill themselves is bad form

True

nuts but then I remembered how I spend my free time here.

I get the same kick. No matter what anyone says in these creationism threads - minds are usually made up before entering thread.

Is this God internal or external to the universe?

originally posted by: Xtrozero
Is this God internal or external to the universe?

Trying to put god in a box? Or exclude god from the box?

Either way, you trying to tell god where to go?

originally posted by: neutronflux

Trying to put god in a box? Or exclude god from the box?

Either way, you trying to tell god where to go?

I'm trying to determine if "God" started with the universe or did he start outside the universe...Not a bad place to start. Maybe "God" is the universe as a whole...

God can go where ever they want to, if they can...

originally posted by: neutronflux

originally posted by: Xtrozero
Is this God internal or external to the universe?

Trying to put god in a box? Or exclude god from the box?

Either way, you trying to tell god where to go?

God can only go in places where there aren't clear parameters and quantifiable behavior. That would generally suggest "outside the box" as the expression goes.

a reply to: Pachomius

Amoeba.........Theoritically the first means of life upon this planet. A cell that does have the ability to change form etc. The words of the Johnny Cash song, ' God Is Not Dead', for who can match the miracle in an Eagles eye, and who can make one seed then , then make it grow. Nope this is not a Crystal clear way to forward the Faith in GOD, but then How or why did the amoeba decide it required Eyes, Ears, Instincts etc.

That is my way of thinking and nothing will ever change such. Not even the Biology studies I tried.

Thank you and all the best to everyone.

a reply to: Xtrozero

If God always was and always is... And God created the heaven and the Earth. This means that God must have some Properties.

If God always was and always is makes God absolute infinite. If God is infinite that means God takes up all Space there is...

So, before God created the heaven and the Earth. There was only God (The Infinite absolute empty void).

Before God created the haven and the Earth. The infinite void of Space must have been absolute empty because Heaven and Earth was not created yet. For heaven and Earth to exist they must take up Space. And heaven and Earth must be made up of physical Properties that are not infinite. This means that Earth is not infinite nor is Heaven.

Since God takes up abolute all Space there is,.... God must create the Heaven and the Earth for it to exist. But since God take up all Space there is God can not use external Properties to create The Heaven and The Earth. Because before God created the heaven and the Earth there was only God. To be able to grasp the answer to Your question it is important that you understand this bit.....

When God takes up all Space there is.... Heaven and Earth can only be created/formed out of the Properties of a absolute infinite empty void (The Properties of God).

This makes God both exsternal and The Heaven and the Earth at the same time. With Our termes we use the definitions to describe the differance between Infinite and finite.

................. All finites must be formed. The infinite always existed……………..


This is also related to time. Finite time always changes. Absolute time does not.

But God did say: Let there be light. The Word..... ?

a reply to: spy66

Thanks for reinforcing my comments.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I find this sort of helps in visualizing an answer to the great question of yours


en.wikipedia.org...

The tzimtzum or tsimtsum (Hebrew צמצום ṣimṣūm "contraction/constriction/condensation") is a term used in the Lurianic Kabbalah to explain Isaac Luria's doctrine that God began the process of creation by "contracting" his Ohr Ein Sof (infinite light) in order to allow for a "conceptual space" in which finite and seemingly independent realms could exist. This primordial initial contraction, forming a ḥālāl happānuy "vacant space" (חלל הפנוי) into which new creative light could beam, is denoted by general reference to the tzimtzum. In contrast to earlier, Medieval Kabbalah, this made the first creative act a concealment/Divine exile rather than unfolding revelation. This dynamic crisis-catharsis in the Divine flow is repeated throughout the Lurianic scheme.

Because the tzimtzum results in the "empty space" in which spiritual and physical Worlds and ultimately, free will can exist,