Atlanta Police Chief resigns after Black Man shot

a reply to: Granby

Re: controlling someone during a scuffle...

I had two friends from school who became cops (one is still alive; the other sadly is not). A few months after becoming a cop, I was at one of them's house for dinner. The conversation of course turned to his training and what he had learned, among which was how to control a suspect using "minimal force." He claimed he could handcuff any suspect.

And I, as the young, cocky redneck, challenged him to cuff me.

So we squared off in his living room, with all the furniture moved out of the way (carpeted so one of us didn't break something that could have turned out to be important). I put my hands behind my back, standing, with him behind me. As soon as I felt the cuff, I spun around and dropped.

We tussled on the floor for a few minutes. Dude was strong! Neither of us were really holding back; we were friends, but this was a serious test for both of us. It took some doing, but finally I was able to twist around and slam the cuffs on him.

Yeah... I cuffed a cop with his own cuffs, from a controlled position.

Now, I'm no walking mountain. At the time I was pretty fit, had some strength in me, 6'-2", about 170 pounds of wirey. He was a little smaller, maybe 5'-10" but closer to 200 pounds, and he worked out. The point being, if I could do it, so could someone else who didn't know beforehand that they would be let out of the cuffs if they failed. He thanked me later, btw, for knocking him off his high horse... said it changed his attitude and probably kept him alive a couple times.

No, there is no guarantee that anyone, trained or not, will be able to effectively subdue a suspect hand-to-hand. The human body has amazing flexibility. That's why there are other officers and why police try to not confront a suspect mano-a-mano. I don't care who you are or how bad you think you think you are, there's someone out there bigger and badder and better.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Too many people think movies are real. It is like how invariably after these shootings you always get some idiot asking why they just didn't shoot him in the leg or arm.

originally posted by: Granby
a reply to: drussell41

If he had controlled the man with basic techniques he would not have lost his taser

There should be a focus on this

Spoken like someone whose sole knowledge of fighting comes from watching episodes of Power Rangers.

Real life isn't as tidy as you think.

originally posted by: Edumakated
a reply to: TheRedneck

Too many people think movies are real. It is like how invariably after these shootings you always get some idiot asking why they just didn't shoot him in the leg or arm.

Typically the same idiots that call for gun control. Not only do they have no sense of reality, they don't even know the law. In some jurisdictions, aiming for the leg or arm could actually get you charged. If you really feel like your life is in danger, which is the ONLY time you can use your firearm for defense, your intent must be to kill. At that point, it's your last resort, or at least it's supposed to be. If you feel like you can be safe just shooting him in the arm, the situation probably isn't serious enough to warrant using a gun.

a reply to: TorqueyThePig

That worked when cities were smaller.

I was responsible for an area of 10 square miles with about 10,000 people in it. That was just one area of 10 in the city of 100,000.

Hard to walk beats regularly in larger areas, especially when it's busy and you're understaffed.

Understaffing then seems to be a part of the problem. Of course that goes back to budgets. Why is it, it always comes down to money? What is a life worth? When did we put a dollar figure on that?

Criminality is contagious. Allow it to fester in one area and it will grow to others. Keep it under control and it will wither and be unable to flourish. How many decades have we looked the other way because the criminality problem in one area was just too great and we didn't have the resources to fight it? Well, it's getting bigger... maybe we should have bit the bullet back then and not found ourselves in this situation? Maybe we should bite the bullet now and not find ourselves in a worse situation in 20 years?

BTW, thank you for answering my question about the psyche exams. I have a feeling most cops would feel the same way, especially if it meant not having to deal with these riots every time a criminal is shot out of necessity.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Edumakated

Too many people think movies are real. It is like how invariably after these shootings you always get some idiot asking why they just didn't shoot him in the leg or arm.

I certainly can't argue with that!

I grew up in what I later realized was a fairly rough area. I had to fight. I've squared off against an awful lot of people, some bigger, a few smaller, some freakin' walking mountains. Two things I learned and learned quickly: there's no such thing as a "fair fight" and never assume anything. It just don't work like that.

I once bit a chunk out of a guy's arm and stood there and chewed it in front of him. Tasted like crap, but it stopped the fight real quick when he saw his blood running down my chin. It was a desperation move on my part; the dude was about three times my size and looked like he was just waiting for someone to use for an exercise band.

That's reality, and cops face it every. Single. Day.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck

BTW, thank you for answering my question about the psyche exams. I have a feeling most cops would feel the same way, especially if it meant not having to deal with these riots every time a criminal is shot out of necessity.

TheRedneck

I have a feeling it wouldn't make a difference. None of this is about justice. They riot and claim racism even when it's a totally justified shooting, like Mike Brown. They still deify him. There's still morons who think he had his hands up. Logical solutions will do nothing to stop illogical people from holding onto a false narrative.

Do we even know Chauvin was a racist? He had a prior record of something like 18 complaints from suspects. Were they all from blacks, or was he just an asshole to everyone? How do we know race had anything to do with it?

originally posted by: Granby
a reply to: Justoneman

The cop does not deserve to die

Guy was running away
he fired the non lethal/less than lethal taser and missed
There was another cop

They handled this wrong


Also it is pretty damn sad that these two cops could not restrain this man.
From the video you can clearly tell the cop that had the guys back had no idea how to control him.

This is another part of the problem.

I am not into defunding the police but I am for redirection.

There absolutely must be training in how to control someone. Get rid of this Krav Maga crap they use and learn something useful.


To the police on this board

How much training do you go through learning how to control a person?
How often?

Ok but it is not NON LETHAL. what part about lethal do we need to go into here for you?

People HAVE died from tasers, period. There either has been deaths from tasers or there have not.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
People see 1 video and think they know the whole story.
Not just that but are willing to mete out justice.
We used to call that lynching.
I thought people believed that to be a terrible crime.
The digital lynch mob is alive and well in Social Justice America.

originally posted by: ColoradoJens
a reply to: proximo

Even if that weapon is non lethal (according to cops) and the guy is at a full sprint running away from them?

I'd argue you let the guy run. You have his car, you know where he lives and works.

Put in the effort and get him the next day. Death is not acceptable.

Where I was the policy was if a cop chase a stolen car and the chase gets above a certain speed the cops back off.

This lead to almost a game among certain groups where they were more brazen to.steal a car and then purposely drove recklessly in hopes the cops would back off.

It cause more accidents and deaths

That mentality would give the idea if you struggle and get away, you wont be chased.

a reply to: Bloodworth

That mentality would give the idea if you struggle and get away, you wont be chased.

Yep, and the logical conclusion to all of that would be more struggles with cops leading to more bad interactions where you don't get away but instead get shot.

originally posted by: Justoneman

originally posted by: Granby

Ok but it is not NON LETHAL. what part about lethal do we need to go into here for you?

People HAVE died from tasers, period. There either has been deaths from tasers or there have not.

You know what is interesting?

The Fulton County Georgia District Attorney was just on MSNBC and he said in Georgia the taser is classified as a NON LETHAL weapon.
He said there have been times where it was treated as a deadly weapon and gave an example of someone that used it on a person 14 times.

So I am going to go with the Fulton DA as he knows he is talking about.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

Innocent until proven guilty does not trump self-defense. It can't. If innocent until proven guilty trumped self-defense, no one could defend themselves until after they were dead.

The police have a right and a duty to enforce the law and protect the public. They also have the right to self-defense even when enforcing the law. All that is required for self-defense is a reasonable belief that one may be in danger. I would believe so in that situation, already overpowered by an escaping suspect who is not sober and being fired upon with my own weapon. Would you not?

TheRedneck

a reply to: Granby

This whole argument over the lethality of a taser is absurd.

The taser will incapacitate an opponent. That is established fact. The cop had a gun. That is established fact. If the cop were incapacitated, the suspect would have ready access to his gun.

The gun is lethal and the taser would give access to the gun.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

so we will just pretend the other cop wasn't there

No point in arguing it now that the DA said in Georgia it is non lethal

You all are arguing the semantics of it because you want this to be a justified shooting.
I'll get back to you in a couple days when they bring charges to him

originally posted by: Granby
a reply to: TheRedneck

so we will just pretend the other cop wasn't there

No, you're pretending this point wasn't addressed. The lead cop chasing the suspect had no idea what the status of the other cop (behind him) was. He couldn't count on the other cop to save his ass.

Real life is not a video game or a movie. This is the single biggest point you have to get through your head if you want to understand these situations.

originally posted by: Granby

I'll get back to you in a couple days when they bring charges to him

Do you honestly think, in this politically charged climate, that if they decide to charge him that proves it was a bad shoot? They're almost certain to charge him just to try to appease the rioters (which won't work, because they're not rioting for justice.) I'm sure you recall the officers in Baltimore who all got charged for political reasons. They all either got acquitted or had the charges dropped, because the decision to charge was a political one, not evidence-based.

Scary really, but we had a very similar situation in my neck of the woods. It happened just the past day or so.

Carjacker was discovered by a cop who initiated traffic stop. The suspect started the high speed chase which ended in a crash. Suspect fled on foot, and then turned with gun. Cop shot, and suspect died at the scene.

Police had just begun with investigation when protesters showed up.

Thankfully, the cops calmly talked with them about everything that had happened, and the situation was defused before it got worse.

But our LEOs aren't backed by City Hall. They're a state run commission. The mayor is the only city elected official on that board. The rest are state appointees. We have a different model here. It used to be common in the country back in the days of the mobsters and political machines.

a reply to: Granby

I don't "want" anything, other than a lack of crime. If evidence comes out that shows the cop was in the wrong, I'll support him being fired... hell, I'll support him being charged! Just like I did with George Floyd's murder.

What I have seen so far indicates it was a justified shooting.

If anyone "wants" a specific outcome, it would appear to be you. You seem desperate to ignore the facts that the video shows... specifically that the suspect had the cop's taser, turned and fired it at the cop, and all in the process of eluding the police. You also ignore the potential ability of the suspect to use the effects of that taser to gain unrestricted access to a gun.

Let me ask you, what was the second cop supposed to do? Would you feel better if he had shot the suspect instead of the first cop?

TheRedneck

a reply to: ketsuko

Did the police verify that the gun the suspect had was "lethal" in your state?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist that.)

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I'm in Missouri. We have legal open carry here although I doubt he was legally able to do that. I could always be wrong, but usually the ones out carjacking aren't going to be licensed to carry. Pretty sure though, the press being what they are, that if he had brandished his NERF, we'd all know about it by now.