Atlanta Police Chief resigns after Black Man shot

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Granby

Continuous training is a great idea. Officers shouldn’t be expected to pay for it on their own, but many of them do because their agencies don’t.

People think LE agencies have huge budgets. Some do, most don’t. Regardless, the vast majority of any agency’s budget is for payroll and related expenses. Like in the neighborhood of 80% for most agencies. That means the left over money has to pay for everything else. Training. Gas. Electric bills. Computers. Ammo. Training. Body worn cameras. New vehicles. Maintenance of old vehicles. Everything.

Can more money be found? Sure, but what are we going to pay less for to offset it?

I agree the cops should not have to pay for it.

Payroll would probably be the most expensive part for this.

It's not like you need equipment beyond mats.

Ultimately they are here to protect and serve us.
This training would make it easier for them and safer for us.

Tack an extra buck on to my license plate sticker or some # and have the money go to this.
I would gladly pay it.

originally posted by: Granby

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Granby

Why aren't we talking about if the guy hadn't fought with the cop and not taken the taser in the first place? Why are we not talking about that one?

Because I am not trying to deflect away from what I think is excessive force and because when I watch the video I can clearly see how this cop had no idea how to control him and could have some so easily.

I'm not either, but the fact is that if you're going go on and on about how the cop is completely at fault because he should have known better.

Then why not admit that the guy they were arresting also should have known better.

originally posted by: Willtell

Yeah, this is some phenomenon going on. I wouldn't take any cop exam nowadays if I were a youngster. Not much of a future.

This LIVE PD I watched a couple of times... It has some really intense stuff on it but got a little routine.

The job pays crap and that is why they moonlight other jobs that end up paying more than their cop job, so ya not much of a future. When I was young I remember hearing about cases where some dumb ass would be on PCP and they would say it took 6 cops to hold him down...today they would just shoot the guy and then go to lunch.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Willtell

Yeah, this is some phenomenon going on. I wouldn't take any cop exam nowadays if I were a youngster. Not much of a future.

This LIVE PD I watched a couple of times... It has some really intense stuff on it but got a little routine.

The job pays crap and that is why they moonlight other jobs that end up paying more than their cop job, so ya not much of a future. When I was young I remember hearing about cases where some dumb ass would be on PCP and they would say it took 6 cops to hold him down...today they would just shoot the guy and then go to lunch.

And the hell of it is that the cops and EMTs and firefighters are often the ones city hall holds hostage when it needs money too.

Give us more in taxes or we'll have to cut these guys off.

But it never quite seems like they get that money at all.

a reply to: ketsuko

Because it goes without saying the guy was in the wrong.
Of course he should not have done that

Definitely should not have been killed for it

If the cop knew a little control this entire situation could have been contained without anyone getting hurt.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Along that line, research I've read states that the LE budgets in relation to the overall budgets (State local) haven't significantly increased in 40 years or so.

Defunding that situation is only going add fuel to the fire.

a reply to: Granby

Maybe, maybe not.

From the videos I've seen, the entire thing took a few seconds. That means you're making split second decisions. You tell me that when you get into a situation where someone fights with you, takes a weapon off your person, distances themselves and turns back at you with that weapon, that you would be able to "exercise the appropriate, Granby armchair QB level of control".

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Granby

Maybe, maybe not.

From the videos I've seen, the entire thing took a few seconds. That means you're making split second decisions. You tell me that when you get into a situation where someone fights with you, takes a weapon off your person, distances themselves and turns back at you with that weapon, that you would be able to "exercise the appropriate, Granby armchair QB level of control".

Has Granby been trained as a LEO?

No? False equivalence.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Maybe this is just what happens when local governments fail to run their budgets realistically, and we're seeing the endgame.

I train Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and believe it should be mandatory for all LEO's. It's not the end all be all but I do believe it would help.

That said, I wonder if during the struggle they were hesitant to try as hard to subdue him because they were worried he may have died from some kind of condition brought on by his intoxication and the struggle. Worried that they may be thrown under the bus by their administration and the public.

Trying a more subdued and "hands off" approach had the opposite effect because it created an even worse situation.

Just a thought that I think is relevant in today's climate.

a reply to: Gryphon66

He's making calls from where he sees it. We all are. But he thinks a person should be in better control in that situation. I think he has no idea what that situation would really be like for anyone, LEO or otherwise.

Split second timing doesn't give anyone, no matter how well trained or not, a whole lot of time to make well-thought out and rational decisions. Those are going to be at least partially instinct.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

Maybe this is just what happens when local governments fail to run their budgets realistically, and we're seeing the endgame.

Or maybe it's what happens when revenue is cut to the bone, and vital programs (like psych evaluations, training, etc.) are cut to keep the budget in line.

Who can say?

a reply to: TorqueyThePig

That's an excellent observation.

There's a few things that puzzle me. Apparently, they had to wake the guy up (whether he was in his car or in the parking lot varies by report.) Then they sat there and talked to him for 20 minutes or so. Then, when they tried to cuff him, the scuffle started. Their body cameras hit the pavement. A man who was unconscious 20 minutes before can struggle effectively with two officers and take a taser, run off 20-40 ft, and then turn and try to use it ... while presumably still intoxicated.

Then they shoot him. What isn't being brought out here so far is that Brooks wasn't dead on the scene. He died in surgery later at Grady.

A lot of questions here.

a reply to: Gryphon66

When budgets are cut in any city generally law enforcement is the first to see it.

Answering calls for service is the number one priority of any agency/department. That requires the majority of the budget, person power/salaries and equipment.

Because of that, when LE budgets are cut the first things to go are training (other than state mandated like firearms qualification) and community policing programs.

a reply to: ketsuko

You're making calls, they are making calls, sure, I get it. Discussion.

However, what I wanted to point out to you is that the distinction, the real point of the matter here is the training, professionalism, experience, etc. of the officer in question.

GIving LEOs the right to kill, qualified immunity, etc. seem to absoutely REQUIRE a higher standard of expectations on our part than on a regular member of society.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Dealing with drunks on the regular you would know that things can go from 0 to 60 in a second.

Adrenaline can sober a person up enough to fight very quickly.

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
a reply to: Gryphon66

When budgets are cut in any city generally law enforcement is the first to see it.

Answering calls for service is the number one priority of any agency/department. That requires the majority of the budget, person power/salaries and equipment.

Because of that, when LE budgets are cut the first things to go are training (other than state mandated like firearms qualification) and community policing programs.

Well, if I ran the world all Public Safety members would have competitive salaries, plenty of time off the line, etc. etc.

I think what officers are paid is RIDICULOUS.

a reply to: TorqueyThePig

I believe that something like jiu jitsu has the potential to make a big impact, not just with cops but with kids as well.

For cops, it would ingrain a habit of more confident physical contact rather than a hands-off weapons based approach. It certainly can teach discipline & control, and if sparring sessions become a normal part of weekly training.. It could reveal control & mental issues that can crop up, particularly over time.

One of the issues is that everyone wants everything to happen "NOW!" But, a lot of this stuff has taken years and years to get where we are.

Ive been a big advocate of low impact martial arts for years. Everything from jiu jitsu to even aikido and tai chi. The benefits of these things go far, far beyond just being able to "fight," particularly if they become a strong part of our society and community as a whole.

The climate of today might be one of the biggest hurdles though, from every angle. I think thats intentional, but if folks would just take a step back and really talk about it.. That might be one of the most important things we can do.

If someone we vehemently disagreed with just yesterday starts to try talking about actual, reasonable solutions.. we shouldnt hesitate to take that olive branch and really try to work through it.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: SovereignEve

The job of law enforcement is to protect the public and uphold the rule-of-law.

Their obligation while doing this job is to use the least force necessary to accomplish those goals.

They are not to serve as judge, jury and executioner.

I am going to spell this out as clearly as I can.

The officer's first priority is to not get themselves killed. If you think that is not any humans first priority you are even dumber than I imagined.

This guy brought his death on himself. He made the cop into his executioner. The cop just wanted to peacefully put this guy in his cruiser and take him to jail.

His race does not matter any cop would have reacted the same way no matter who the subject was under these circumstances.

Where this is going very soon is cops are going to refuse to police black communities. It is becoming obvious facts don't matter in these situations, and a large portion of the black community don't care about cops getting killed. Why should cops care if black people are getting killed then? At some point they are going to say F this, and 1000's of times more black people are going to be killed by crime that could have been stopped if they had cops than the handful killed by cops.

a reply to: proximo

All you spelled out is your opinion.

Thanks for sharing that.