The Anti-Christian conspiracy

DruidTek, it's too bad more people can't be more like you...

The world is changing my friend, starting with ourselves... It's inevitable because nothing ever stays the same forever...

It's not so much Christianity that is hated, it is fundamentalism, a very important distinction. And the hatred is furthered by the Christian lust for power that literally pervades society. Of course, there is the also a major correlary, the fact that Christians are compelled to proselytize by "the great commission." They simply are not satisfied unless everyone believes exactly as they do. Oftentimes, bullying ensues.

Such belief has led to the religion being predominant in the world with fully 1/3 of the Earth's population being converted (2.1 billion adherents). Another religion relies on prosetylization, Islam, which is also largely "successful," claiming 1.2 billion souls. These are both religions of the Book, that is, of the Bible/Koran. Fundamentalists on both sides have waged the most bloody and torture-filled campaigns of conversion for centuries. No one expects it to stop, especially given recent fundamentalist hatred for science, etc. Recently, physical attacks by these religionists are giving such fundies an even worse name. Consider this story of how a couple of anti-evolution (read: Christian) thugs attacked a pro-evolution professor in Kansas. IMHO, there is much more of a Christian, right-wing conspiracy than anything against it.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
still could've given him the money

Ahh, I see your point now. I was trying to insinuate through the story that the mugger was going to kill one of the kids to prove the point, then continue to demand the money. So, had I not moved, one of my children would have died. It was the only semi-realistic example I could come up with where a loved one would die without any action on my part short of the Holocaust.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Because the majority rule is not always right...

Well, we agree on that much.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
and the "church" today is a false church and is caving to public pressure and fads.

...and we agree that the "church" is false. But I don't stop there. I view your church as false as well.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
When you heap unto yourselves teachersIn the early days of the church there were men who stood out and proclaimed the same truth the Apostolic fathers had.

There's no way of knowing that one position is more or less true than another. This was a problem recognized early on; no-one has any actual knowledge about these things. They got decided by politics as a result.

So you like a literal interpretation, but have no real basis for choosing it other than you found a collection of heretics you think viewed it that way (debatable).

Someone else like allegorical interpretation, and they can also find that this is a position supported by much of the early church.

How can you determine who's right without resorting to a circular argument?

Christians, prepare to meet your Maker, you have been tried and convicted by MAN.
Man, who has accussed you of 'legalism', has used mans 'legal system' to convict God and His followers.
First, writting laws to decide what 'evidence' is 'admissible'.
Second, not funding a full investigation.
Third, paying the worlds top legal team to prosicute you.
Fourth, argueing that your supporting evidence be suppressed.
Fifth, refussing to move your case from a hostile court district.
Sixth, jury rigging.
Seventh, also the First, buying the judge who wants to get his hands on that Holy Family's Estate.

And now you also know why 'The Brotherhood' preferes to "catch and kill their own", they aren't stupid enough to trust mans legal system to deliver justice.

Originally posted by Aeon10101110
It's not so much Christianity that is hated, it is fundamentalism, a very important distinction. And the hatred is furthered by the Christian lust for power that literally pervades society. Of course, there is the also a major correlary, the fact that Christians are compelled to proselytize by "the great commission." They simply are not satisfied unless everyone believes exactly as they do. Oftentimes, bullying ensues.

Utterly and sadly true.

Originally posted by Aeon10101110
It's not so much Christianity that is hated, it is fundamentalism, a very important distinction.

If I may, I'd like to wave my arms for a moment here. First off, thanks Aeon for not viewing hatred for Christianity. If we go to the strict (fundamental) definition of funamentalism, it's going by what the Book says, the core, the basics and all the applications thereof. The fundamental aspect of Christianity is Christ, Son of God, saviour of mankind. If any "Christian" does not see this fundamental, completely believing and trusting their lord Jesus Christ then they're not Christian. Now then, our society which do love to slap labels, got so label happy, it seems to have slapped "Christian fundamentalism" on things extra-Biblical, that is to say things that are outside of the Bible. It's like saying Christmas and Resurrection Sunday are about trees and eggs. THEY ARE NOT! And any "Christian" who claims it is, has certainly not done their homework. Label slappers need to stop it, we're all pretty good at labeling ourselves. "Christians" who proclaim truth and constantly go anti-Biblical are not Christians at all and need to get back to their fundamentals.

[edit on 7-12-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Because the majority rule is not always right...

Well, we agree on that much.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
and the "church" today is a false church and is caving to public pressure and fads.

...and we agree that the "church" is false. But I don't stop there. I view your church as false as well.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
When you heap unto yourselves teachersIn the early days of the church there were men who stood out and proclaimed the same truth the Apostolic fathers had.

There's no way of knowing that one position is more or less true than another. This was a problem recognized early on; no-one has any actual knowledge about these things. They got decided by politics as a result.

So you like a literal interpretation, but have no real basis for choosing it other than you found a collection of heretics you think viewed it that way (debatable).

Someone else like allegorical interpretation, and they can also find that this is a position supported by much of the early church.

How can you determine who's right without resorting to a circular argument?

Ahhh, now we get down to something I find very interesting, interpretation. At its center man can pick and choose what he or she wants to think true in all things, not just religion. Take for instance the traffic laws. While some drive, and almost get run over, in the slow lane doing the posted speed limit, others choose to drive with the flow of traffic. Do you think that just because you go with the flow of traffic that you are not breaking the posted law of the land? Surely not. You will be pulled over by a police officer as quickly as can be (if he does his sworn duty). Not this is just a simple example but the same holds true for following the law of the bible. If you hold to the belief that the Word is true then you cannot pick and choose what you want to believe. You must take it in its entirety. The early fathers of the modern denominations chose a path that leads to the picking and choosing of doctrinal views that support their scope of beleif, to the exclusion of all else. The fathers I mention did not hold that picking and choosing was acceptable and were labeled heretics.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
If you hold to the belief that the Word is true then you cannot pick and choose what you want to believe. You must take it in its entirety.

All you are doing is assuming the entire thing is "the Word". There's no noncircular basis for such an assumption. Such a position is not stronger than a position that parts of it are true, or that parts are allegorical and other parts literal.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
The early fathers of the modern denominations chose a path that leads to the picking and choosing of doctrinal views that support their scope of beleif, to the exclusion of all else. The fathers I mention did not hold that picking and choosing was acceptable and were labeled heretics.

I don't know how you can claim this group did not do the exact same thing. There is no basis for the assumption that the Bible is supposed to be understood literally in its entirety, and such a position then excludes other ways of interpretation.

It particularly makes little sense in regard to the Jewish scriptures, which were historically interpreted in a four part manner; Pshat (surface meaning), Remez (clue), Derash (interpretation), Sod (mystical secret/implication). There's every reason to suspect that the Gospels, Acts, and Revelation as a minimum were written with this method in mind. The letters and epistles probably not, since the writer's wouldn't have known they were writing what would later come to be scriptures.

could we get back to the main point of the thread?

where is this anti-christian conspiracy?

what is its goal?

why is it being enacted?

who are the perpetrators?

when did it start?

how is it being carried out?

why do you think christianity shouldn't be under some scrutiny?

why is christianity being targeted?

would it be a bad thing if christianity was no longer the dominant religion in this country? if so, why?

haven't there been conspiracies against every single religion at one point or another?

why is christianity worth saving?

okay, just throwing out some questions there

I've entertained those questions twice on this thread. To which a rebuttal I've gotten none. I could re-post it yet again, but find twice should be due dilligence enough. I'd brought attention to it on page 36 and repeated on page 57. If anyone has any questions or wants to discuss other "issues" then I'm happy to entertain to help paint the picture. So long as there's listening and learning, I think these discussions (whether on or on-the-side for perspective) are valuable experiences.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
could we get back to the main point of the thread?

Done.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
where is this anti-christian conspiracy?

Addressed.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
what is its goal?

Addressed.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why is it being enacted?

Hate, anger, selfishness, hedonism, fear.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
who are the perpetrators?

Addressed

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
when did it start?

About 2,000 years ago.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
how is it being carried out?

Addressed.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why do you think christianity shouldn't be under some scrutiny?

Scrutiny is fine, we're not talking about scrutiny.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why is christianity being targeted?

It is the enemy of the enemy.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
would it be a bad thing if christianity was no longer the dominant religion in this country? if so, why?

Irrelevant. What matters is where YOU are spending eternity.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
haven't there been conspiracies against every single religion at one point or another?

I'm sure, don't know, not relevant to this discussion.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why is christianity worth saving?

Christianity is saved. It's the people who need saving.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
okay, just throwing out some questions there

Sure thing. Please let me know what points you'd like me to clarify, or if your interested in receiving the free gift of eternal life, certainly welcomed to U2U.

[edit on 7-12-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

If I may, I'd like to wave my arms for a moment here. First off, thanks Aeon for not viewing hatred for Christianity. If we go to the strict (fundamental) definition of funamentalism, it's going by what the Book says, the core, the basics and all the applications thereof. The fundamental aspect of Christianity is Christ, Son of God, saviour of mankind. If any "Christian" does not see this fundamental, completely believing and trusting their lord Jesus Christ then they're not Christian. Now then, our society which do love to slap labels, got so label happy, it seems to have slapped "Christian fundamentalism" on things extra-Biblical, that is to say things that are outside of the Bible. It's like saying Christmas and Resurrection Sunday are about trees and eggs. THEY ARE NOT! And any "Christian" who claims it is, has certainly not done their homework. Label slappers need to stop it, we're all pretty good at labeling ourselves. "Christians" who proclaim truth and constantly go anti-Biblical are not Christians at all and need to get back to their fundamentals.

but the bible itself is severely flawed. i've gone through and i count around 5020 problems in the bible ranging from contradictions to straight up inaccuracies. how can you take it seriously?
i'm going to provide you with several links pointing out many of the problems i see, and if you can explain the error in most of the annotations, your point shall be proven. (i just don't have time to type it all out)


[/url]Injustice in the Bible

Absurdities

Cruelty and Violence

Intolerence

Contradictions

"Family Values"

Women

"science" in the bible

False Prophecies, Broken Promises, and Misquotes

Interpretations

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
but the bible itself is severely flawed.

What Biblical principles have you applied and found flawed?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i've gone through and i count around 5020 problems in the bible ranging from contradictions to straight up inaccuracies.

Is that a number that you have personally counted after reading the whole Bible?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
how can you take it seriously?

I used to not take it seriously. I've learned otherwise...the hard way.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'm going to provide you with several links pointing out many of the problems i see, and if you can explain the error in most of the annotations, your point shall be proven. (i just don't have time to type it all out)

Hey look, all the links you have are from the same website . Rather than play "link wars" or address each point one-by-one (as I and JungleJake have done on another thread already where most of these same "inaccuracies" were pointed out), let's talk about what's important to you, and the issues you have with the Bible. I'd be willing to talk about them provided you actually have an open mind and heart to seriously consider what's being said.

[edit on 7-12-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
I used to not take it seriously. I've learned otherwise...the hard way.

A friend of mine did not take Donald Duck seriously.. he learned otherwise as well... also the hard way.

A lot of young boys however did take christianity seriously. They too learned otherwise... the hard way... literally... from behind

[edit on 2005-12-7 by EyesOfTheFuture]

Originally posted by EyesOfTheFuture
A friend of mine did not take Donald Duck seriously.. he learned otherwise as well... also the hard way.

He learned to take Donald Duck seriously? Please explain.

Originally posted by EyesOfTheFuture
A lot of young boys however did take christianity seriously. They too learned otherwise... the hard way... literally... from behind

I'm not sure I follow. Please explain.

saint4god,
first off, i said about 5020. secondly, i kept a running tally as i read the whole bible through. third, you didn't address the question.

i stumbled upon the webpage last night, concurred with the majority of its annotations after looking back at my sticky note filled bible which i annotated myself. rather than somehow posting every single question i want answered, i chose to post several links citing multitudes of bible passages which i deem either flawed or absurd. but since you don't want to play nice like that, i'll just give you my main objections.

1: the demeaning of women

2: the absurdity of certain stories in the bible (ie jonah stopping the sun)

3: the massive amounts of contradiction in the bible

4: genesis, the most mythical part of the bible

5: the massive amounts of divinely ordained violence (including god ordering the sacrafice 32 people)

6: the massive amounts of injustice and intolerence

7: anyone trying to pass of the majority of the hebrew scriptures (or as you call them the old testament) as factual, historical information, instead of fables.

8: the way the bible, a philosophical text, is portrayed as a set of facts with nothing to back it up but the fact that it is god's word. when asked how people know there is a god, they say that it's in the bible, creating a cyclical argument.

that's just scratching the surface.

now, saint4god, how could you have possibly learned to take the bible seriously "the hard way"?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
saint4god,
first off, i said about 5020. secondly, i kept a running tally as i read the whole bible through.

Okay, so this was an estimate of flaws you have found yourself. Yes?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
third, you didn't address the question.

You're right and apologize for the indirectness. How can I take the Bible seriously? I'll try to be as brief as possible. I foolishly challenged anything beyond the human realm to reveal itself, else I would not believe. Well, I got a taker and had to spend a good deal of time running. My rescue had come when I turned to God for help. I wasn't thinking about eternal life, just help in this one. What I got though, was the gift of eternal life and the direction to read the Bible. There's some pretty wild stuff that goes down in that Book, and had I not experienced a great deal of wild stuff, I'm not sure I'd believe it myself. There is an easier way though, a non-violent one where you can approach God peacefully and be given the gift of eternal life. That's what I'm proposing as the correct path and will be glad to explain at length by U2U how to receive this free gift as I have.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i stumbled upon the webpage last night, concurred with the majority of its annotations after looking back at my sticky note filled bible which i annotated myself. rather than somehow posting every single question i want answered, i chose to post several links citing multitudes of bible passages which i deem either flawed or absurd. but since you don't want to play nice like that, i'll just give you my main objections.

I admire that you read the Book and am interested in the sticky-notes. I appreciate the more candid approach. If it's important to you, it's important to me.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
1: the demeaning of women

I found the book quite liberating. Deborah ruled for 40 year of peace in Judges. She was also a prophet and a priest. The lady had skills. Mary was righteous and holy, chosen as the primary parent of the Son of God. Jesus found preciousness in many women, a prostitute, one with many husbands, and those he entrusted with very, very important messages. Paul gave women the ability to choose whether or not to marry, which was counter-culture to the times.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
2: the absurdity of certain stories in the bible (ie jonah stopping the sun)

If you physically haven't seen it, does it mean it doesn't exist?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
3: the massive amounts of contradiction in the bible

I'd need specifics to help.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
4: genesis, the most mythical part of the bible

How is it mythical? Do the Tigris and Euphrates not exist? Does man and woman, day and night, fish, animals, birds not exist?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
5: the massive amounts of divinely ordained violence (including god ordering the sacrafice 32 people)

The Bible speaks of God's character in many ways. One is "God is love" 1 John 4:8b, but it also says "Yet he will by no means allow the guilty to go unpunished" Exodus 37:4b. I'd like to see the specific example so we can discuss in context.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
6: the massive amounts of injustice and intolerence

Where?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
7: anyone trying to pass of the majority of the hebrew scriptures (or as you call them the old testament) as factual, historical information, instead of fables.

What basis are you using to say they are fables?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
8: the way the bible, a philosophical text, is portrayed as a set of facts with nothing to back it up but the fact that it is god's word. when asked how people know there is a god, they say that it's in the bible, creating a cyclical argument.

I will do my best to explain the "why" and the reasoning behind these things and break the cycle. Consequently though, I may need time to research or may not know completely all the answers (I'm not God )

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
that's just scratching the surface.

I know how you feel. I have questions myself, though usually they're involving application of scripture to daily life. I've found many answers, but have many, many more questions to go.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
now, saint4god, how could you have possibly learned to take the bible seriously "the hard way"?

I'm usually not a proponent of sharing my testimony on a thread, since having done it a few times before and seeing the results. I've been told everything from being psychotic to needing medication. This is crap and am not in the business of vouching for my own credibility. Nevertheless, I've shared a synopsis above and will answer questions having done so.


[edit on 7-12-2005 by saint4God]

If you physically haven't seen it, does it mean it doesn't exist?

it's not a matter of witnessing someone stop the sun, it's a matter of the plausibility. seeing that the appearence of the sun's movement accross the sky is a direct result of the earth's rotation it seems impossible that the sun stopped. but if jonah stopped the earth's rotation, people would notice in other places that they felt a weird shudder and they'd notice that the sun stopped in the sky, and they would have written it down.

on the subject of women,

Women are treated as property in the hebrew scriptures.

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, ... nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's." Exodus 20:17

"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." Exodus 21:7

----------------------------------------------------
Now for wackiness

"And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free." Leveticus 19:20

this passage says that if a man has sex with an engaged slave woman that the slave woman shall be scourged, but no punishment for the man. now how can you say that's anywhere near right?

In Leviticus 27:3-7 it gives an appraisal for the worth of slaves, and a woman is worth 50% as much as a man... not to mention the condoning of slavery.

---------------------------
in genesis god creates light, then seperates light from dark (creating day and night) on the first day. however, there were no light producing objects until god created the sun and the stars on the fourth day.

--------------------------------------------------------

In Lamentations 2:20-22 God mercilessly kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.

-----------------------------------------------------------

people in the bible live to well over 100 on many occassions, now that's just well, um, impossible without modern medicine. this has to do with the fact that all men will eventually get prostate cancer and all women will eventually get breast cancer, if they live long enough. also, noah fathers 3 children, before the invention of viagra.

-----------------------------------------------------

after Cain kills Abel, he gets a wife, when the only woman on the planet should have been his mom. well, Cain's wife could have been his sister, but that's incest. so it's either inconsistency or incest.

-------------------------------------------------------------

speaking of genesis, we have 2 seperate stories of creation, the one starting in 1:1-2:3 and the one beginning with 2:4 (the adam and eve one). which one is true?

i think that's enough for this post

[edit on 7-12-2005 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

If you physically haven't seen it, does it mean it doesn't exist?

it's not a matter of witnessing someone stop the sun, it's a matter of the plausibility. seeing that the appearence of the sun's movement accross the sky is a direct result of the earth's rotation it seems impossible that the sun stopped. but if jonah stopped the earth's rotation, people would notice in other places that they felt a weird shudder and they'd notice that the sun stopped in the sky, and they would have written it down.

on the subject of women,

Women are treated as property in the hebrew scriptures.

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, ... nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's." Exodus 20:17

"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." Exodus 21:7

----------------------------------------------------
Now for wackiness

"And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free." Leveticus 19:20

this passage says that if a man has sex with an engaged slave woman that the slave woman shall be scourged, but no punishment for the man. now how can you say that's anywhere near right?

In Leviticus 27:3-7 it gives an appraisal for the worth of slaves, and a woman is worth 50% as much as a man... not to mention the condoning of slavery.

---------------------------
in genesis god creates light, then seperates light from dark (creating day and night) on the first day. however, there were no light producing objects until god created the sun and the stars on the fourth day.

--------------------------------------------------------

In Lamentations 2:20-22 God mercilessly kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.

-----------------------------------------------------------

people in the bible live to well over 100 on many occassions, now that's just well, um, impossible without modern medicine. this has to do with the fact that all men will eventually get prostate cancer and all women will eventually get breast cancer, if they live long enough. also, noah fathers 3 children, before the invention of viagra.

-----------------------------------------------------

after Cain kills Abel, he gets a wife, when the only woman on the planet should have been his mom. well, Cain's wife could have been his sister, but that's incest. so it's either inconsistency or incest.

-------------------------------------------------------------

speaking of genesis, we have 2 seperate stories of creation, the one starting in 1:1-2:3 and the one beginning with 2:4 (the adam and eve one). which one is true?

i think that's enough for this post

[edit on 7-12-2005 by madnessinmysoul]

Saint, I told you that these folks would need concrete proof. An experience is what they need. It seems man (and woman) need to shown signs and wonders. What better way than a visit from an eternal? I know, it is a really painful lesson, but think about it. And pray I suppose too...lol. We have a whole generation of doubters the divine nature of God and believers in themselves and their "gods" even as Elijah dealt with the worshipers og Baal.