The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
I would pose this question to you. What other document in human history is as complete in its text from an archeological standpoint as the bible?

You're joking right?

The Bible gets things right occasionally, but why would that be amazing in the least, considering it genuinely is ancient.

A state of mind of not judging things as true or not true, a state of mind of revering and loving the truth, your truth Spamandham. Not ours.

So how can something that is not true exist if it is seperate from truth?

We can walk on the moon, and aim for the stars, but not tolerate how others spread tolerants?

tolerating is revering, understanding, and caring for communication.

fear (and all programming that stem from it) is anti-communication.

Conquer your own fears and things start to make a little more sense each day.

Sure, it may be rough once in awhile.

Computers. It takes a few hours to defrag a computer (and you believe a computer is faster at computing?), but after it is done your computer runs far more efficiently.

Defrag your brain. Programming exists in our shared reality to aid us in defragging our computer, but first you must upgrade the hardware in order to download the software (stimuli senses provide).

Hope this analogy helps to explain my point of view. Doesn't this make some sense to you?



[edit on 9-12-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]

it's not a matter of witnessing someone stop the sun, it's a matter of the plausibility. seeing that the appearence of the sun's movement accross the sky is a direct result of the earth's rotation it seems impossible that the sun stopped. but if jonah stopped the earth's rotation, people would notice in other places that they felt a weird shudder and they'd notice that the sun stopped in the sky, and they would have written it down.

I've read your most recent post as well. I agree that if man were to stop the sun (rather, the earth since we're dealing with literally the only way WE could do it) then it could cause a fatal and irrecoverable impact to the whole earth. The interesting thing about God is He never promises to do things in a way we understand them. Some things that He has said that comes to mind are "my thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways" and "I am the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega"....which says to me He makes the rules, not us understand the rules and expect Him to stick by them else we have the right to yell, "unfair!"

on the subject of women,

Women are treated as property in the hebrew scriptures.

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, ... nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's." Exodus 20:17

This doesn't say anything about the mistreatment of women. In fact, it gives married women the freedom to know that their neighbor doesn't have the rights to violate their intimacy by lustful desires. It's a tricky concept for men to get sometimes.

"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." Exodus 21:7

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I think it's important then to know the difference between how the "menservants do" and how the maidservants are different in that regard to determine any unjust treatment or "property" difference than men.

Now for wackiness

"And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free." Leveticus 19:20

this passage says that if a man has sex with an engaged slave woman that the slave woman shall be scourged, but no punishment for the man. now how can you say that's anywhere near right?

It sounds to me like the slave was previously killed. Instead of killing, this calls for punishment. You prefer killing, is that what you're saying? And, yes, there have been punishments in the Old Testament for sexual immorality for men.

In Leviticus 27:3-7 it gives an appraisal for the worth of slaves, and a woman is worth 50% as much as a man... not to mention the condoning of slavery.

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I see. So you know the value of slaves and why they're set then? Do you know why people became slaves? Please omit Early American examples of entrapment and abuse.

in genesis god creates light, then seperates light from dark (creating day and night) on the first day. however, there were no light producing objects until god created the sun and the stars on the fourth day.

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See above on God's rules vs. man's rules.

In Lamentations 2:20-22 God mercilessly kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.

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It would help to actually read this book. He, like many of us here do, blames God for all the world's problems. Let me ask this question. How many people did God create?

people in the bible live to well over 100 on many occassions, now that's just well, um, impossible without modern medicine. this has to do with the fact that all men will eventually get prostate cancer and all women will eventually get breast cancer, if they live long enough. also, noah fathers 3 children, before the invention of viagra.

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There are many theories on how this is. I don't think I'm convinced by any one of them at the moment. Viagra. What are the ingredients of that product and where did they come from?

after Cain kills Abel, he gets a wife, when the only woman on the planet should have been his mom. well, Cain's wife could have been his sister, but that's incest. so it's either inconsistency or incest.

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Even better example of this is post-flood. One theory links longevity with the tight gene pool. I'm still not convinced though, since Genetics was my major and don't think a "natural" explanation is the case.

speaking of genesis, we have 2 seperate stories of creation, the one starting in 1:1-2:3 and the one beginning with 2:4 (the adam and eve one). which one is true?

Genesis 1 is the creation of the universe as we know it. Genesis 2 is the Garden of Eden, a micro-experiment involving two people. Outside of the garden (that is to say after Adam and Eve were cast out) were cities and lands. That would not be possible if there were only two people ever.

i think that's enough for this post

I will be thoroughly impressed if any of these are seriously considered as you propose.

[edit on 9-12-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
That was the weakest arguement I have yet to read in this forum...

So you have one book and you think it is almightly in its assessment of biblical archeology?

That is pretty lame. Try again.

That "one book" is a summary of decades of findings by archaeology that pertain to the Bible. I don't expect you to show enough interest to actually crack it open. That takes effort, whereas cutting and pasting from apologetic websites for third party references that fallaciously support your position is easy.

Do you at least recognize that the claim you posted regarding Solomon is pure speculation supported by nothing at all? Do you also at least recognize that the author provided no substantiation whatsoever that
the "prophecies" regarding the fall of Ninevah were made before it fell? Why intermix speculation and assumption with a list of archaeological facts (assuming there are not factual errors in his list)? The answer is obvious.

Well considering that archeology isn't my major or anything, what would you propose I use? I won't use a site that denies the biblical perspective, that would be kind of silly. And I did do a search on the book at the library to see what it says. I couldn't find it. Either they do not have it or it was out. Either way I cannot verify your claims but can say that the "one book" I am called out on by what's his face as ironic is a collection of books. If any one of them separately could be debunked I would say that I had my hands full to verify the debunking and not the right kind of background to know where to start besides other experts in the field. BTW there were books that we use currently that "men of science" said did not exist in the original Jewish book that were verified by later discoveries (i.e the dead sea scrolls). Sooo.....balls back in your court.

Why are so many people soo anti christian?

to cut a long story short, i'll simply answer by stating that from my own experience i can tell you that every regieon is hated in one way or another.

Originally posted by El_Go0rf

Why are so many people soo anti christian?

to cut a long story short, i'll simply answer by stating that from my own experience i can tell you that every regieon is hated in one way or another.

To make it even shorter I'll ask what permits human programming to justify that hate?

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Well considering that archeology isn't my major or anything, what would you propose I use?

...objective research that starts with the data and then forms a conclusion rather than forming a conclusion first and looking for data to support it. If you aren't willing to do that, I suggest staying out of the debate. I doubt any of us here are archaeologists, but that doesn't prevent us from understanding, or from recognizing fallacious arguments.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
I won't use a site that denies the biblical perspective, that would be kind of silly.

It wouldn't be silly, it would be scientific. If you start with the assumption the Bible is right, and are unwilling to consider that it might not be, then of course you're going to end up concuding that is. This was a problem archaeology suffered from for a long time, until the evidence became insurmountable and the assumption that the Bible was right had to be abandoned. It is right quite often, but it also makes a lot of serious mistakes - mostly in an attempt to prove that Judah rather than Israel received god's blessing.

You and your Bible study group can all pat eachother on the back for your fine "work", but such an approach will not convince many others.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
If any one of them separately could be debunked I would say that I had my hands full to verify the debunking and not the right kind of background to know where to start besides other experts in the field.

i.e., "nothing anyone says could convince me any portion of the Bible is false" - you do realize you're committing idolatry don't you?

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
BTW there were books that we use currently that "men of science" said did not exist in the original Jewish book that were verified by later discoveries (i.e the dead sea scrolls). Sooo.....balls back in your court.

I hardly see how the inspecific claims of anonymous men somehow puts a ball in my court. I pointed out some flaws in the article you posted from, and gave you a reference where you can found out what objective science has to say about archaeology and the Bible (BTW, the authors are Jewish). Whether you want to persue it or not is up to you.

I want to open up a big can of worms here, by telling the truth.

According to www.adherents.com (a growing collection of over 43,870 adherent statistics and religious geography citations: references to published membership/adherent statistics and congregation statistics for over 4,200 religions, churches, denominations, religious bodies, faith groups, tribes, cultures, movements, ultimate concerns, etc.) 33% of the population of planet earth is "Christian", while a big 21% is made up of all our brothers in the Islamic faiths, followed by 14% Hindus, etc etc...

One third of the population of earth is Christian? "Followers of Jesus Christ" - over two BILLION people? Hmmmmmm........

Am I missing something? Perhaps it's just me, but I imagine we in America are very limited in our scope and perception of things when it comes to a lot of things like religion and culture, and tradition, etc. We are very SPOILED to being spoon fed certain "facts" and "news items" that just don't hold water in the real world. Our media and government have kept us in the dark about a lot of things.

For all we know and care we should be the center of the earth and universe. God made it that way right? No. It just isn't so. WWJO = "What would Jesus do?" (he wouldn't be very happy with our governement for starters) Remember the story about how He overturned the moneychanger's tables in the temple and caused quite a stir? Imagine Jesus in the midst of an unruly pompus Senate or House in the United States. WWJD? I don't think He would be having a party with Barney Frank, or lunch with the Clintons. No, I think He would tell them that the party is over. For too long they've been having a party ON the people, not being the party OF the people, and Jesus would tell them so. When He comes back again, I think that's going to be the message. "Clean up your act, now, I'm back."

He's not coming back as a sweet little baby in a manger, rather, as a warrior, on a white horse, with implements of war, to wage war, and rule over the earth, to slay His enemies, and all who oppose Him, and to bind up the evil ones and cast them into the lake of fire. The Church and those who believe shall be set free to receive their rewards of life to live and rule with Him in His Kingdom. The Bible describes, a new Heaven and a new Earth, made by God Himself, after this one is destroyed utterly by fire and everything in it that God despises. All things shall be made new again. Read about it at www.Bible4Free.com

If that offends someone, or makes them anti-Christian, or turns them from God, perhaps it's the truth they are running from? All these things are well documented, well established doctrine. True, we have other accounts & scriptures to choose from, besides the Bible, that describe God and a time of the end, and things of this nature, but it is accepted on faith, every one of them, and most people choose to follow Christ statistically. (even Muslims acknowledge Him as a brilliant Teacher/Master/Prophet if not "a" Son of God.)

The truth is, right now, that we still live in a time of grace extended by God upon mankind, for redemption of sin. There's no magic formulas, no rituals to perform, no money to donate, simply believe Jesus shed His blood for you on the cross, died for your sins, rose from the dead, that He's coming back again. Believe = Receive. Simple. God didn't make it hard to get saved he made it easy, that's why the devil is so angry, and running about pulling on his horns. He knows his time is running out.

Therefore, I conclude that many more people right now are pro-Christian than anti than we are led to believe. I propose, although I didn't really go there, that the "anti-Christian" factions get and/or attempt to get more publicity, and media exposure than Christians do, because true Christians are really BUSY trying to convert non-Christians into believers, and don't waste their time bothering the media, which won't pay them any attention anyway, and when it does, it's slanted and biased toward the anti-Christians.

If this offends anyone, it's not me they are ofended by- it's Jesus they have a problem with God Bless.

Originally posted by webbtexas
simply believe Jesus shed His blood for you on the cross, died for your sins, rose from the dead, that He's coming back again.

Okay – Here’s my problem….And it’s been said a million times before me….

It’s the “simply believe” part that I’m stuck on…

Grammatically speaking, that’s a command – Albeit you can’t make someone believe, alternatively you really shouldn’t tell anyone else what they should do either…

Culturally speaking, it’s a catch phrase of various denominations of faith….Simply believe and you’ll be saved…..The opiate of the masses…

Does my negation of the phrase “simply believe” mean that I’m Anti-Christian though? Of course not…

But in any given face-to-face situation where someone of my viewpoint stands against someone of a similar viewpoint as such, it would be seen as someone who needs saving….An obstacle…whose pittance of salvation is its only hope…

Put the shoe on the other foot and you’ll see why there’s such disdain for fire and brimstone preaching….

Is this all an adequate excuse for belittling someone else’s beliefs or slandering another’s religious rituals? Of course it’s not…In fact, the fundamental structure of the entire argument is based upon the desire for mutual respect…

So as long as fuzzy logic continues down this path, it will remain a habitual detractor between the two parties…

Both continually bickering back and forth without making any positive resolutions…Jeez…That sure does sound familiar…I wonder why we have such a tense political arena these days….

Must be all those Anti-Christians….

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun

Originally posted by webbtexas
simply believe Jesus shed His blood for you on the cross, died for your sins, rose from the dead, that He's coming back again.

Okay – Here’s my problem….And it’s been said a million times before me….

It’s the “simply believe” part that I’m stuck on…

Grammatically speaking, that’s a command – Albeit you can’t make someone believe, alternatively you really shouldn’t tell anyone else what they should do either…

Culturally speaking, it’s a catch phrase of various denominations of faith….Simply believe and you’ll be saved…..The opiate of the masses…

Does my negation of the phrase “simply believe” mean that I’m Anti-Christian though? Of course not…

But in any given face-to-face situation where someone of my viewpoint stands against someone of a similar viewpoint as such, it would be seen as someone who needs saving….An obstacle…whose pittance of salvation is its only hope…

Put the shoe on the other foot and you’ll see why there’s such disdain for fire and brimstone preaching….

Is this all an adequate excuse for belittling someone else’s beliefs or slandering another’s religious rituals? Of course it’s not…In fact, the fundamental structure of the entire argument is based upon the desire for mutual respect…

So as long as fuzzy logic continues down this path, it will remain a habitual detractor between the two parties…

Both continually bickering back and forth without making any positive resolutions…Jeez…That sure does sound familiar…I wonder why we have such a tense political arena these days….

Must be all those Anti-Christians….

Funny stuff! You make some good points. Ultimately though, as I've said before you WILL worship something. We are just trying to tell people about what happened to us and our experience. The people that come at you with an axe and two thirty eights are not going to win many souls for Christ. "He that winneth souls is wise" (paraphrase) is a motto that my church holds to. I just want people to know that #1 there is a better way than drinking/sexing/drugging/slow deathing your life away. It is like that movie "pay it forward" (or whatever it is called), where the kid does something really nice and the only condition of the gift is you do something nice for someone else you don't know. That is a biblical principal. As for the history and accuracy of the bible, well the WHOLE word must be taken on faith ultimately. Can you "prove" God exists...no. Because we cannot physically see Him and we weren't alive when He actually walked the earth. Did I see the book of the Bible written? No, I did not. But neither did I see anyone ever write any of the other books I've read. I take it on faith (the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen type of stuff) that they were written by the authors. Can we go on and on about who is right in thier assessment of scientific evidence, absolutely. Will you unbelievers really change because I've tried to explain to the best of my ability. Prolly not. All I can do is cast out the seed. Another will come to explain these things in person. It takes a man to explain salvation (or woman). God will not show himself again until it is too late for you. So the next time you shun the guy/girl door knocking to invite you out to church, don't say you weren't given an opportunity. Oh, and by the way. There is only one way to get to heaven. "he that tries to come another way is a thief"

I'm athiest ( if that's even the correct spelling )

Originally posted by webbtexas
One third of the population of earth is Christian? "Followers of Jesus Christ" - over two BILLION people? Hmmmmmm........

I assume you consider Catholics to be true Christians then right?

He's not coming back as a sweet little baby in a manger, rather, as a warrior, on a white horse, with implements of war, to wage war, and rule over the earth, to slay His enemies, and all who oppose Him,
...
If that offends someone, or makes them anti-Christian, or turns them from God, perhaps it's the truth they are running from?

Until it actually happens, it remains the psychotic delusion of ancient mushroom eaters, and those who desparately follow them out of fear of death. It isn't true until proven false, it's false until proven true.

Originally posted by spamandham
Until it actually happens, it remains the psychotic delusion of ancient mushroom eaters...

Can it... That kind of attitude will not be tolerated on these boards...

That's the last caution you'll get spamandham before further actions are taken....If you have a problem with me calling you out, take it up via U2U or the gripe/help button…

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun

Originally posted by spamandham
Until it actually happens, it remains the psychotic delusion of ancient mushroom eaters...

Can it... That kind of attitude will not be tolerated on these boards...

That's the last caution you'll get spamandham before further actions are taken....If you have a problem with me calling you out, take it up via U2U or the gripe/help button…

spamandham may have been a bit insulting, but revelations does seem a bit trippy...

If spamandham's been "a bit insulting" then the Sun is "a bit warm".

As I've mentioned before, his HATE MONGERING and RELIGIOUS VILLIFICATION, spread all over these boards, would have him arrested in a number of countries (and killed in Islamic countries), yet he still hasn't earned an official "warn".

If Christians 'spoke' to him with the language he's so fond of spitting against them, they would be "banned".

I suppose I should thank him for proving, there is a conspiracy against Christianity.

[edit on 10-12-2005 by suzy ryan]

Originally posted by suzy ryan
If spamandham's been "a bit insulting" then the Sun is "a bit warm".

As I've mentioned before, his HATE MONGERING and RELIGIOUS VILLIFICATION, spread all over these boards, would have him arrested in a number of countries (and killed in Islamic countries), yet he still hasn't earned an official "warn".

If Christians 'spoke' to him with the language he's so fond of spitting against them, they would be "banned".

I suppose I should thank him for proving, there is a conspiracy against Christianity.

[edit on 10-12-2005 by suzy ryan]

one person doesn't = a conspiracy

don't let me get into how much hate mongering i've heard from both sides

hell, to conclude that just because some people don't like having christianity in their faces 24/7 when christians make up 1/3 of the population is a conspiracy is the same as saying a native american not wanting his/her people used as mascots is starting a native american revolt.

get it?

it's hard to put christians as an oppressed people when they have the lion's share of the religious market.

No, one person doesn't = conspiracy but the point that only a few, dedicated Christians, pull him up on his hate speeches, that are illegal, out of the 10's of thousands who read his posts, many of which are aware of these laws, kind of tells us that Anti-Villification Laws aren't there to protect Christians.

It was a light, 'closer line' but thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify my point.

Okay....It's really no better to idly chat over one member...

Let's keep it on topic and enough with the singling out....

If you have something you need to get off your chest about member x, y or z...Do it in a u2u to a mod or via the gripe/help feature...

Doing it in a thread only eggs the other person on and takes the thread off topic....

Cool?

Sorry, but I don't see how pointing out that a poster endlessly get's away with "hate speech", against people of faith and Christians in particular, is "idle chatter".

It's a current, relevant example of how atheists aren't held up to the same standard of respect and tolerance they demand of Christians yet claim they don't receive.

If atheists jumped in to suggest their 'opinions' not be expressed as "hate speech" they would demonstrate they aren't conspiring to spread hate of the faith, but they haven't so what are we left to conclude?

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Sorry, but I don't see how pointing out that a poster endlessly get's away with "hate speech", against people of faith and Christians in particular, is "idle chatter".

He has a different point of view than you, get over it. In the end its up to Admin to decide what it allowed, but this is hardly "hate speech".

It's a current, relevant example of how atheists aren't held up to the same standard of respect and tolerance they demand of Christians yet claim they don't receive.

If anyone says they believe anything other than what's in the Bible, you take that offensively and deem it "hate speech". There is no conspiracy against Christians, just people taking a stand for the seperation of church and state.

If atheists jumped in to suggest their 'opinions' not be expressed as "hate speech" they would demonstrate they aren't conspiring to spread hate of the faith, but they haven't so what are we left to conclude?

Suzy, dont be such a hypocrite, your posts have not been the most considerate:

Originally posted by suzy ryan
This piece of childish, shallow, nonsence, and many others like it,

I have no clue how what Spam said is any worse than this.

Attacks against anyone's personal beliefs are neither productive nor "nice".

Challenging the premise that there is some organized, concerted effort to relegate Christians to some kind of second-class citizenry or deny them the right to worship in the manner of their choosing is the topic at hand.

I've written plenty, already, to express my views that I do not believe that any such anti-Christian conspiracy exists.

Maybe everything has been said...