The Anti-Christian conspiracy

I understand what you are saying. However, my reasoning or point is this. Are these people, and I know there are, anti-Christian or anti-GOD? Most I hear of are truly anti GOD.

If one sat down with me in a one to one conversation one might put the label of anti-Christian to me. I am not one to be the dogmatic, evangelical, point the finger, type of Christian. Just as Christ was not. However, when I espouse my views and people have trouble comprehending what I say they immediately label me as anti-God, anti-Christian, etc. All the sudden I am a heretic. I interpret things differently and in a way that many cannot comprehend what I try to say so therefore since I"m not being the dogmatic type individual that many think is required all the sudden I don't have a grasp of GOD or what is "required" to be Christian.

This is why I pester some about the "nose in the Bible". Saint, who I consider a friend is a great Christian and lover of GOD. However, he and I really are polar opposites on how we reach conclusions. He does it through study and teaching. I do it through heart and feel. Yet, we both come to basically the same conclusion. I, possibly, do need a little Bible study to understand what others say. However, I consider that limiting for if I was to begin study of the Bible I then also would have to begin study of the Koran, Confusious, Buddhism, etc. All I feel is totally unnecessary.

One's relationship with all and the understanding that we are all really of one is all that I really need. The illusion of "life" that GOD has given us is really such a short term deal that I am continually frustrated by the narrow thinking of indoctrination that many have.

The thinking of my way, this way, etc baffles me. Today in the office the discussion was this month's fax. You know, "Why is everyone now trying to call it "Holiday" instead of "Christmas". Why take down the manger scenes, etc. ad nauseum, etc.

In the public arena why does it really matter?!?!?! One's individual relationship and understanding of GOD counts much more than "holiday" or "Christmas". Jesus himself warned of this type activity. If one has to get into a blather about this type of thing than the words of Christ himself are not being followed.

Just as in the "In GOD we Trust" blather on the money that is bantied about. A certain segment of Christianity just can't seem to understand that all this doesn't matter. They want the government to prop up GOD instead of GOD proping up the government.

GOD speaks to individuals and groups in different ways. It is the interpretation of what GOD speaks that becomes the problem. Sects of various religions take place. GOD's love becomes lost. Judgementalism steps in. Anti-gay, anti this, anti that. There is no ANTI in the kingdom of GOD. There is only love.

We are all GOD's children. Whether, black, white, red, yellow, Christian, Muslim, gay, straight, left handed, right handed, tall, short, squirrel, cat, dog, horse, tree, rose, petunia, grass, dust, etc. We all have one thing in common. The energy that keeps the place up and running. GOD is that power and he/she/it runs the course through everything in this physical universe that we know, and many universe's that many will know.

I just want to know where the faxes come from. It is time to take away their tax exempt status for they push a political agenda and many push a judgemental hate of a certain segment of mankind. GOD is not political.

I get you, Madman. I too, don't jell with the rabid Bible bashers you describe. You may have noticed I'm not one for quoting The Bible even though I've found more wisdom, and answers to deep questions, there than any other source. I discovered this when my life long interest in learning, so as to understand, led me to 'study' The Bible and it filled the holes science, reason and study into other beliefs left empty.

I can honestly say I lived your spirituality most of my life, I just knew God is, and He is love. This however led others to trying to sell "their" God to me and I found it beneficial to have a deeper understanding of His Living Word to keep in my peace. It helps steer you clear of those useing Christ's name for worldly gain.

Also, by trying to live a life without judgeing anyone, I forgot the aspect of useing "discernment" to keep my loved ones safe from those who do seek to do harm.

There is a big difference between judging someone and not choosing their lifestyle. I find that often when people feel "judged", they are infact, "judging themselves" against the lives of those they accuse of doing the judging. Leaving ALL judgement to God, including that of yourself, doesn't however mean that you should be always silent about aspects of the faith that taught you no one has the right to judge but God.

I thank you for your views, really not very far removed from mine, and wish you well.

Theres no such thing as Anti-Christian Conspiracy guys, nobody cares exept you repeating posters, do you think that everybody who doesn't believe in Christianity is somehow involved in a conspiracy? believe what you want to believe, i dont care, i love all, but my god doesn't like thine name used in vain, you've already insulted him enough with your abhorrence and self indulgent tittle tattle, even Pauls God would be cringing,

I bet i know wich is you favorit god movie, I'll go all in on "passion of christ" do you know why i know this? becouse its the one that shows you the most pain and suffering, and thats what Christians enjoy the most, so the thought of an Anti-Christian Conspiracy will have you all flapping your wings

but i forgive you for you know not what you do.

God bless... iamian

Originally posted by saint4God
What about having 5 fingers on each hand and foot? What about 2 eyes?

What about them?

Originally posted by saint4God
What about 1 God?

The sun.

Originally posted by saint4God
Why doesn't the bible mention 365.25 for number of days in the year somewhere?

They didn't keep track of the calendar that way. The used the stars to set the calendar.

Originally posted by saint4God
What about 9 planets in the solar system, surely that's important enough to be somewhere in the Bible?

They only knew about 5 of them (not including earth which they didn't realized was also a planet). The five "nonfixed" stars they knew about were Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn, and Jupiter. Adding in the other major celestial bodies, the sun and moon, brings the total to 7 - which is also a prominant biblical number. Have you never wondered why?

Originally posted by saint4God
How do the 10 commandments relate to astrology?

I'm not sure that they do. I'm not claiming that everything in the Bible is astrological, just that much of it is. I do not view the Bible as a cohesive work the way you do.

Originally posted by saint4God
Shouldn't the 60 degrees in an equilateral triangle be mentioned somewhere in there too? Peleg lived 209 years, how do we use that number in math?

How come the number of members of Congress isn't in the Bible? I have no idea what point you're trying to make with these off the wall random numbers that have nothing to do with astrology.

Originally posted by saint4God
Here's a thought:
"We got a lot of fish, but even more people to feed!"
"Well, how many fish do we have?"
"1...2...3...etc...153"
"Hm, that'll have to do. Let's get cookin!"

Here's another thought; even if they bothered to count the fish, there is no reason to record the number in the book of John unless it has some significance. Of course, you do realize you have provided no substantiation at all for your speculation don't you?

What's so wrong with just saying "spam, your full of crap, but I have no alternative explanation for why early christians thought 153 fish was important enough to be remembered in the intervening decades."? Why do you feel the need to have an alternative explanation?

Was it common practice to count the fish in a large haul?

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
Do you also believe it's just "coincidence" that the number 12 is found repeatedly throughout the Bible as well?

Nope, the explanation is in the Book though, not in the number of dots in the night sky.

The numbers found throught the Bible were common among pagan religions in the area of Canaan. Monotheistic Judaism grew out of polytheistic Judaism based on the surrounding beliefs.

Originally posted by saint4God
That's totally unfair sir, I've had to "spoonfeed" you on every point I've brought up (when the Book is available in soft cover and hard-back).

I don't need you to spoonfeed me speculative horse manure. I'm quite familiar with "the Book. I don't think it's unfair to say I'm spoonfeeding you when a substantial point is brought up and you expend zero effort to investigate it yourself, and instead respond with home spun apologetics you've pulled out of pure imagination.

Originally posted by saint4God
I ask for what's ticking inside your head and this is your response?

I wonder if you even bother to read your own responses. That portion of the post was in response to your accusation that I'm trying to bait you or to pad my points.

You're not worth the effort Saint. Live your delusion in peace.

Originally posted by spamandham
What about them?

I don't know, you're the one attaching signifance to numbers.

Originally posted by spamandham
The sun.

Are you sure it's not the moon? We have 2 sources of light (according to ancient thinking), the sun and the moon.

Originally posted by spamandham
They didn't keep track of the calendar that way. The used the stars to set the calendar.

They also didn't build pyramids or other triangular structures needing Pythagorian theorems, but apparently they're in there for some reason.

Originally posted by spamandham
They only knew about 5 of them (not including earth which they didn't realized was also a planet). The five "nonfixed" stars they knew about were Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn, and Jupiter. Adding in the other major celestial bodies, the sun and moon, brings the total to 7 - which is also a prominant biblical number. Have you never wondered why?

Ah yes, the great Hebrew astronomers. My history book is chock full of those.

Originally posted by spamandham
I'm not sure that they do. I'm not claiming that everything in the Bible is astrological, just that much of it is. I do not view the Bible as a cohesive work the way you do.

That's interesting...considering there are 4 gospel books that repeat each other, 8 epistles that pretty much do, and references to other books within the Book throughout. Perhaps reading it as a linked and coordinated unit will help tie together some of these loose ends for you.

Originally posted by spamandham
How come the number of members of Congress isn't in the Bible? I have no idea what point you're trying to make with these off the wall random numbers that have nothing to do with astrology.

You're the numerologist here, not me. I say the numbers are next to meaningless.

Originally posted by spamandham
Here's another thought; even if they bothered to count the fish, there is no reason to record the number in the book of John unless it has some significance.

And that my friend has the exact amount of weight as my supposition.

Originally posted by spamandham
Of course, you do realize you have provided no substantiation at all for your speculation don't you?

Yep. So I guess we're on equal ground here.

Originally posted by spamandham
What's so wrong with just saying "spam, your full of crap, but I have no alternative explanation for why early christians thought 153 fish was important enough to be remembered in the intervening decades."?

First of all, I don't think you're full of crap. I think neither of us like to waste our time on crap, which is why we always go head to head . Anyhow, I need to understand what it is that you see because it is far from common perception. That's a good thing, we should be thinking outside of the box. However, if there's something proposed and an opposite that has just as much validity, that leads us back to square one. Benefit of the doubt goes to what logically makes sense or face-value for what's written. I'm not here to decide the end-all of all things God and Biblical, not my job. I don't know if you'll be in heaven or not, it's not for me to decide. If it were up to me, I'd say "come on in!" 'cause we'd certainly have more than enough to talk about for eternity . Anyhow, my job is to offer a different perspective and should there be any interest in knowing for certain in this lifetime whether or not you're going to heaven then I'd be glad to help, preferrably by U2U. Until then, I'll do my best to entertain any questions, thoughts, or concerns about how all this works (though cannot guarentee I'll have an answer).

Originally posted by spamandham
Why do you feel the need to have an alternative explanation?

Because there are alternative possibilities. I think scientific minds need to consider all possibilities before testing which one is correct. When they start breaking down in the testing process, then it's time to look at those alternatives.

Originally posted by spamandham
Was it common practice to count the fish in a large haul?

I don't know. Good question. It looks like they pulled in a large net. It comes out to about 12.5 fish per attendee at the event. Next questions were, how big is a Galilean fish?



www.biblepicturegallery.com...

From the size of the fish in the picture of this Galilean fishermen, they look kinda small. Not really a Sea Bass variety no? Therefore does it make sense that one would have to eat 13 of these buggers to fill you up? I know I could.

Originally posted by spamandham
The numbers found throught the Bible were common among pagan religions in the area of Canaan. Monotheistic Judaism grew out of polytheistic Judaism based on the surrounding beliefs.

What I find amazing is that everyone says pagans came up with everything, when the common pagan practice was assimilation. So "pagan" isn't a religion, is a mish-mass of a bunch of cultural stuff. If there isn't a clear distinction between the two, my recommendation would be to compare a history book with the Old Testament. It should be pretty clear that Old Testament Israeli servants of God were under spiritual and cultural quarantine, for lack of a better word.

Originally posted by spamandham
I don't need you to spoonfeed me speculative horse manure. I'm quite familiar with "the Book. I don't think it's unfair to say I'm spoonfeeding you when a substantial point is brought up and you expend zero effort to investigate it yourself, and instead respond with home spun apologetics you've pulled out of pure imagination.

Pot, kettle, black. I haven't apologized for anything.

Originally posted by spamandham
I wonder if you even bother to read your own responses. That portion of the post was in response to your accusation that I'm trying to bait you or to pad my points.

I may have said something(s) requiring explanation, but I've never bashed anyone for asking.

Originally posted by spamandham
You're not worth the effort Saint. Live your delusion in peace.

Well, you're still worth my time spamandham so if there's anything I can do for you please let me know.

[edit on 1-12-2005 by saint4God]

Numerology, like statistics, can be "constructed" to support/deny anything and so has been a favouite tool of occultists in the work they do to try to supplant Jesus Christ and His Message with The Opposer and his message.

Saint4God is aware of methods of 'leading astray' and so is in his right not to give your 'numbers game' the respect you imply it deserves but you, Spamandham, have no right to claim he, "lives in delusion".

Making that claim however, as your closing salvo, may indicate that you may want to stay in your current mindset regardless of new information and are infact avoiding information that may ulter your views.

Though that mindset may include your 'honest opinion' that Saint4God lives in delusion, sharing that opinion as a statement crosses the line into personal insult. Not good for encouraging a "contest of ideas" which also indicates which 'side' you (and the many others who use that tactic to close debate and discussion. I'm not singling you out) may 'fear' will 'win'.

[edit on 1-12-2005 by suzy ryan]

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Numerology, like statistics, can be "constructed" to support/deny anything and so has been a favouite tool of occultists in the work they do to try to supplant Jesus Christ and His Message with The Opposer and his message.

This coming from the same person that attempted to prove god through personal statistical anomolies"?

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Saint4God is aware of methods of 'leading astray' and so is in his right not to give your 'numbers game' the respect you imply it deserves but you, Spamandham, have no right to claim he, "lives in delusion".

Why do I not have such a right? Neither you nor saint even know what you're talking about when you say "god". Why is it false to call belief in that which isn't even defined, a delusion? You believe in spite of knowledge. What better word describes this than "delusion"?

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Making that claim however, as your closing salvo, may indicate that you may want to stay in your current mindset regardless of new information...

What information are you referring to? Please don't make the mistake of assuming that simply because you are Christian, you have better knowledge of the Bible.

[edit on 2-12-2005 by spamandham]

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Saint4God is aware of methods of 'leading astray'

Hey, thanks for the props! The love goes right back atcha.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Though that mindset may include your 'honest opinion' that Saint4God lives in delusion, sharing that opinion as a statement crosses the line into personal insult.

No worries suzy, I'm not personally insulted. It's not MY message that spamandham is rejecting.

Originally posted by spamandham
Neither you nor saint even know what you're talking about when you say "god".

Actually we do. I'd go as far as to say we have a personal relationship with God. I don't know suzy's heart, but I can hear the words and it does verify. In the same way, I've heard your words and can say they do not verify with one who knows God intimately. I could be wrong thought there aren't the "fruits" of His being showing through you at this time.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
What information are you referring to? Please don't make the mistake of assuming that simply because you are Christian, you have better knowledge of the Bible.

Mere knowledge never saved anyone's soul. "No one cares how much you know unless they know how much you care."


[edit on 2-12-2005 by saint4God]

Spamandham, I don't keep record of what I write as I just respond to posts as I feel moved to, so I don't know what "personal statistical annomolies" you're refering to.

I don't try to 'prove' God anyway (He needs no proof and only He can call people to hear) I just on occasion mention personal experiences that feed my Faith. These personal accounts I mention are to indicate my faith isn't something that I was "indoctrinated" into "imagining" but one that has grown through real life experiences that support the answers found after deep and wide searching.

Infact it's "scientific, historic and other accepted annomolies" that steer me from losing faith. I don't accept, "on faith", conclusions, drawn from incomplete data and "expert" "OPINION", that constantly "declare" God is no more than our own imagination when science itself teaches that any "new" fact can overturn "old" facts and man is so very far from knowing all the facts of everything.

Throughout history man has "deluded" mankind with faulty science and expert opinion that we keep having to correct and adjust when "new discoveries" are made, like the mathimatical equation for "everything", that collapses into uglyness, when "the God factor" is removed, a little 'factiod' that just doesn't get the media coverage of anything that may be a link to a link to possibly finding the missing link or any other "field of science" "imagined" to "prove" there is no God.

Concidering the highly biased and unbalanced publishing and reporting of science, skewed to support the thesis that there is no God, I'm constantly amazed by those who put their "faith" in the "delusion" that science has "proved" faith in God, "unintelligent".

Facts of the politics of funding in the industries of science and it's highly biased reporting, further fuel the argument that there is a conspiracy against God. As those of other faiths, such as Moslems, don't constantly suffer the vicious personal insults hurled against Christians but rather, are more often politely inquired of, I see the conspiracy to be mostly against the God of Christianity.

Maybe if you KNEW the God, Saint and I KNOW and talk about, you wouldn't always be so angry, bitter and insulting in your posts viciously attacking and declaring as unknowing, those who don't share your personal views.

[edit on 2-12-2005 by suzy ryan]

The Anti-Christian conspiracy

"Christians" themselves are the source for any anti-Christian conspiracy. They over-analyze and pass judgement, until they actually live the teachings that is.

Look at what Christians believe and accept is true:

1) Hipocrites are people who are Hellbound because they do not live up to the expectations they have for everyone else.

2) Most Christians (especially doctrine from the Vatican) condems the practice of the death penalty / capital punishment.

3) Yet, their entire religion would not exist if it were not for the death penalty / capital punishment.

So, according to their own logic: Aren't they all hellbound hipocrites?

-Got this off of the "Colbert Report" dated 01Dec05. Paraphrased, but concept presented on Comedy Central by Steven Colbert.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
The Anti-Christian conspiracy

"Christians" themselves are the source for any anti-Christian conspiracy. They over-analyze and pass judgement, until they actually live the teachings that is.

Look at what Christians believe and accept is true:

1) Hipocrites are people who are Hellbound because they do not live up to the expectations they have for everyone else.

2) Most Christians (especially doctrine from the Vatican) condems the practice of the death penalty / capital punishment.

3) Yet, their entire religion would not exist if it were not for the death penalty / capital punishment.

So, according to their own logic: Aren't they all hellbound hipocrites?

-Got this off of the "Colbert Report" dated 01Dec05. Paraphrased, but concept presented on Comedy Central by Steven Colbert.

This piece of childish, shallow, nonsence, and many others like it, offered as "COMEDY" yet used as a weapon to knock the block of credibility off Christianity, further supports the belief that there is an Anti-Christian conspiracy.

I like a comic story "told" by a ventriliquists dummy, "Chuck Wood". His run in's with Satan lead him to make the statement, "All satanists are stupid anyway, if you don't listen to him what is he going to do, send you to heaven?"

Originally posted by suzy ryan
"All satanists are stupid anyway, if you don't listen to him what is he going to do, send you to heaven?"

Yes...., you switched viewpolints in the middle of that statement. Satanists don't believe Satan is evil, they worship him because he questioned God's intentions and didn't just blindly obey(which BTW doesnt sounds all that bad). "God" could lie through his teeth(figuratively) and you wouldn't know the difference. Just as a Christian wouldnt want to go to hell, a Satanist wouldn't want to go to heaven.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Yes...., you switched viewpolints in the middle of that statement. Satanists don't believe Satan is evil, they worship him because he questioned God's intentions

There are innumerable denominations of Satanism. Some believe in a real being called Satan, some are atheist and worship human's carnal side (Satan), and some are somewhere in between.

Most Satanists don't believe in Fudamentalist Christian doctrine, that if they reject Jesus they will go to hell. They either think that the Judeo-Christian God is a false-God, or that no such being exists.

[edit on 2/12/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

Well there you go...I tell the punch line of one, COMIC, story that mocks Satanism and that moves people to defend it, yet finally speaking out against the constant, all pervading barrage of Anti-Christian "jokes" and deliberate lies, is called "Bible bashing" and an offence, that should be stopped, against those not of the Christian faith.

Just thank God that despite experiences that do justify it, I'm not constantly attacking Satanists and their ilk with the angry, nasty, language and tone that they use against Christians.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy

Originally posted by suzy ryan
"All satanists are stupid anyway, if you don't listen to him what is he going to do, send you to heaven?"

Yes...., you switched viewpolints in the middle of that statement. Satanists don't believe Satan is evil, they worship him because he questioned God's intentions and didn't just blindly obey(which BTW doesnt sounds all that bad). "God" could lie through his teeth(figuratively) and you wouldn't know the difference. Just as a Christian wouldnt want to go to hell, a Satanist wouldn't want to go to heaven.

Ya know...hell is really going to be bad. Satan is the Father of lies and he is lying to his followers because he knows where he is going and doesn't want to be alone and he is taking God creation of free will in man with him. I suppose the argument could be made that the angels had free will too. I mean they did after all follow another angel, no matter his status as an elite angel, and go against their maker. Watch this, I am about to step on someone's theology, all angels are male. Not one female name in the bible is given to any angel. So, the next time you look at the "angel" images and they are girls, you are being decieved into beleiving a lie...again.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Just thank God that despite experiences that do justify it, I'm not constantly attacking Satanists and their ilk with the angry, nasty, language and tone that they use against Christians.

The only crime of "Lucifer" was questioning God and I see no problem with that. The only crime of the "serpent" is trying to give Adam and Eve knowedge. I am not saying I believe in Satan, only that he is made out to be evil, when his only fault is fighting for the truth. But somehow I'm just buying right into their propaganda, eh?

As Al said, what better defense is their than, those who oppose you are wrong, The tone Christians use with ANY other belief, is no better than a Satanists.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Just thank God that despite experiences that do justify it, I'm not constantly attacking Satanists and their ilk with the angry, nasty, language and tone that they use against Christians.

The only crime of "Lucifer" was questioning God and I see no problem with that. The only crime of the "serpent" is trying to give Adam and Eve knowedge. I am not saying I believe in Satan, only that he is made out to be evil, when his only fault is fighting for the truth. But somehow I'm just buying right into their propaganda, eh?

As Al said, what better defense is their than, those who oppose you are wrong, The tone Christians use with ANY other belief, is no better than a Satanists.

Do you really think that?!? Boy, you deserve to think that lie if you thought it up all by yourself and the results of it.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Spamandham, I don't keep record of what I write as I just respond to posts as I feel moved to, so I don't know what "personal statistical annomolies" you're refering to.

...the endless list of coincidences you provided in another thread, such as thinking about your friend and the phone rang (or something like that), or praying for an answer and you turned on the radio to some song that spoke to it, etc.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Infact it's "scientific, historic and other accepted annomolies" that steer me from losing faith. I don't accept, "on faith", conclusions, drawn from incomplete data and "expert" "OPINION", that constantly "declare" God is no more than our own imagination

Science does not address the existence of god, although it may well explore the god experience. To be explored by science, a premise must be comprehensible and testable. "god" is neither.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Throughout history man has "deluded" mankind with faulty science...

Could the same not be said about religion? No-one can be deluded by faulty science if they understand science, because all scientific conclusions are held contingently. I agree that laypeople generally don't realize that, but I don't see that as the fault of science.

Why do religious discussions tend to gravitate toward science bashing?

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Concidering the highly biased and unbalanced publishing and reporting of science, skewed to support the thesis that there is no God

Huh? I honestly think you're making things up. Science does not address the existence of gods, although it certainly may show counter evidence for certain premises such as a young earth, or global flood.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
I'm constantly amazed by those who put their "faith" in the "delusion" that science has "proved" faith in God, "unintelligent".

I think you're confusing philosophy and science?

Originally posted by suzy ryan
As those of other faiths, such as Moslems, don't constantly suffer the vicious personal insults hurled against Christians but rather, are more often politely inquired of, I see the conspiracy to be mostly against the God of Christianity.

You must be watching different media than I do. Christianity is predominantly pandered to in the US.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Maybe if you KNEW the God, Saint and I KNOW and talk about, you wouldn't always be so angry, bitter and insulting in your posts

I did KNOW that god. That's how I also know it's false. If there were a god, it certainly wouldn't be the petty national god of Israel trandformed by 1st century Platonists into "the god".

Originally posted by suzy ryan
viciously attacking and declaring as unknowing, those who don't share your personal views.

...more generalizations. If what you're saying were true, I would have been banned from this board. I seem to recall something about false witness in that book you idolize.

[edit on 3-12-2005 by spamandham]

Originally posted by suzy ryan
you wouldn't always be so angry, bitter and insulting in your posts ...

Originally posted by suzy ryan
This piece of childish, shallow, nonsence, and many others like it,

Pot, meet kettle.