Trans Activism, Trans Regret, and Resources for Desisters and Detransitioners

a reply to: sapien82

Maybe you missed this. I have already read that research before you posted it and am well aware of it.

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents

Adolescence goes up to age 19. Not infancy. Not fetal.
That research is from 2018, it just started. It has not even been replicated as far as I know.

a reply to: ketsuko

Yeh , I think that is what it says to me

we are all unique but very similar at base level , our humanity is shared
but our individuality is unique

love is love right, doesnt matter what bits they have

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Cool

Adolescence , goes up to 19

so from 0 - 19
0 - 19 includes infants and fetal stages does it not ?

I dont know what age groups they sampled in their data set for that study

I doubt they have fetal scans , that would be really difficult to obtain surely ?
or maybe its easy who knows I dont know how they can get fetal brain scans.

They obviously know that sex hormones help brain development in early stages of fetal growth already
so they know that in these early stages is likely the answer to how GD occurs

I was just giving you more information on the subject.

I didnt write the papers, I didnt do the study, I just read it

then posted it here to further discussion.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Boadicea


I was highlighting that the evidence of the brain physiology shows that those with gender dysphoria brains actually do represent their desired natal sex brains as such and are therefore completely different from "auto genyphiles " who simply identify as the opposite sex of their natal sex.

Gotcha -- thank you for expanding on your thoughts. And I basically agree (now that I understand your point) regarding genuine gender dysphoria. Autogynephiles/gender euphoria is a whole different beast however.

Just to show that there is definitely not just their active imaginations , like people who simply desire to be another sex by choice
and that the evidence also shows there are equal numbers of genders as there are humans on earth due to our varying calcium homeostasis system.

Again, I agree -- for the most part. When you really dig into the science of "male" and "female," each and every one of us is a combination of male and female factors -- chromosomes, hormones, etc. Any mother who has carried a son has his male DNA forever in her brain. While most of us have clearly recognizable genitals of one sex or the other, the rest of our bodies and chemistry is technically both male and female to one degree or another, so we're merely talking averages and norms and tendencies.

Where I disagree is in portraying such similarities/differences as "gender" (in the identity sense of the word). There cannot even be such a thing as "gender" if everyone's "gender" is unique. That's personality, not gender. Nor can a gender identity be separated from anatomical sex while simultaneously linking one's gender identity with the opposite anatomical sex. Either our sex and gender are linked or they aren't.

Im speaking in general terms about thinking and acting like a female...

But beyond those physical realities that females (males) share, how else can one think and act like either sex? What one thing do all women (or all men) think or do that is not specifically related to their anatomical sex? Or even most women/men? I honestly cannot think of anything. And I've tried!!!

Again and again, beyond the physical anatomical realities, it always comes down to stereotypes. Which is where we get ourselves into trouble.

However, I can certainly understand a woman who relates more to male stereotypes and male gender roles than female stereotypes and female gender roles (and vice versa of course). I can certainly understand how society would make it difficult (if not impossible) for such people to live and co-exist in a world that demands they be someone they are not and do not want to be. I can certainly understand how such a person would find it infinitely easier (and happier) to live as the opposite sex just to be done with society's craptastic expectations and judgments!!!

But no one should have to do so.

...Im sure they already have this dont they ? before adults are considered for surgery they have to live the life of the desired sex right ?
They need to dress, socialise and do things that those of that sex normally do

That was the standard. That is not the standard today. Self-ID and informed consent is now the recommended (and demanded) standard. And, in fact, so-called "gender fluid" want to be able to change their gender identity as their mood changes... they might be male in the morning, female in the afternoon, and a furry at night.

We are all different but we are all human (that's the #ing bottom line)...
we have biology and that tells a lot about humans and our behaviours and similarities
and as such we can draw many conclusions from that...

Only to a certain extent. Stereotypes do have a foundation; but is that foundation inherent or cultivated? Are women better multi-taskers because they have a multi-tasking gene or chromosome? Or is it because women have traditionally been the full-time parent and expected to simultaneously manage multiple factors? In other words, practice makes perfect, and women have passed that skill on... Isn't it just as likely that if men had historically been the stay-at-home parent, that their multi-tasking skills would be just as strong?

My point is that many stereotypes are based upon society's gender roles, and lived experiences, which often served a practical purpose at one time.

Ok as you said you cant tell me what it is to be female , so how can a trans person with gender dysphoria "know" they are in the wrong body if you cant feel what it means to be male or female , if they have never actually existed as that sex ?
Well id look at the biological evidence, for them it shows that their brain is like that of their desired sex.

Technically it would only tell us that their brain is closer to the average brain of the opposite sex than to the average brain of their sex. And those are very significant qualifiers.

I'm also not sure why the default is to think that someone was born in the wrong body as opposed to thinking that they were born with the wrong brain, or that their brain has been compromised or damaged in some way to cause the disconnect.

But in regards to "feeling" like one's gender doesn't match their anatomical sex, isn't that just process of elimination at best? Basically someone knowing they do not feel like their sex matches their gender, therefore if they aren't the one, then they must be the other? It still doesn't tell them how the other feels. They can only know how they feel (or don't feel).

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Cool

Adolescence , goes up to 19

so from 0 - 19
0 - 19 includes infants and fetal stages does it not ?

I dont know what age groups they sampled in their data set for that study

Sounds like a big problem with the study if you don't know, right?
I don't know why I have to actually tell you this but no, not 0-19, 10-19. Trying to say adolescence starts at birth just makes you sound super silly defending a position on emotional grounds, be better than that.

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Boadicea


I was highlighting that the evidence of the brain physiology shows that those with gender dysphoria brains actually do represent their desired natal sex brains as such and are therefore completely different from "auto genyphiles " who simply identify as the opposite sex of their natal sex.

Where I disagree is in portraying such similarities/differences as "gender" (in the identity sense of the word). There cannot even be such a thing as "gender" if everyone's "gender" is unique. That's personality, not gender.

Bingo. Not to mention the entire idea that certain thoughts and feelings are "male" or "female" was considered sexist not that long ago. So telling me that a boy is really supposed to be a girl because he has "girl" thoughts or feelings is sexist, not to mention absurd.

a reply to: Annee

What is the percentage of those happy and content with their transition?

This is not known, and probably impossible to know, mostly because virtually all studies rely on the input of those who are happy with their transition. Such studies are notorious for participants just dropping out, with no follow-up. So for example (and I'm pulling numbers out of the air here just to illustrate the point), a study may start with 1,000 transitioners, but by the end of the study, half of those transitioners are no longer participating with no reason given, and the results of the study are determined by the 500 who are happy with their transition and continue to participate.

It must also be noted that transgender ideology in general and Self-ID in particular makes "transitioning" a very vague and subjective term (much like "gender" itself). For some, "transitioning" means demanding others use special pronouns and nothing more. For others, "transitioning" means wearing a little lipstick with your three-piece power suit in the boardroom. For too many, "transitioning" means declaring you're a butch lesbian and continuing to present and act as a stereotypical male.

Pretty sure that number outweighs the small percentage of those who claim otherwise.

And I'm pretty sure that's impossible to know.

I'd say you have personal issues with this subject. Why?

Because I have huge issues with bullies hurting other people. And when good people do nothing, bad people do bad things to whoever the hell they want.

a reply to: Boadicea

Anonymous surveys of college students show about 1.8% identify as other than their normal gender and 80% have mental health issues. Sample size of the survey is over 60,000, so very big.

a reply to: face23785

Can you just wait for the day when we all introduce ourselves as:

"Hi, name is _______, and I identify as ________ (insert name here). My personal pronouns are ___________, and my biological sex is _____________, and my preferred sexual partners are ________________(insert bio sex or sexes/species)."

What an awesome world ...

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Boadicea

Anonymous surveys of college students show about 1.8% identify as other than their normal gender and 80% have mental health issues. Sample size of the survey is over 60,000, so very big.

And it's criminal that these people aren't getting real help and are instead being pigeonholed into a #ing social justice experiment.

a reply to: face23785

Bingo. Not to mention the entire idea that certain thoughts and feelings are "male" or "female" was considered sexist not that long ago. So telling me that a boy is really supposed to be a girl because he has "girl" thoughts or feelings is sexist, not to mention absurd.

Exactly!

And it's gotta be said that much of what we determined to be "male" or "female" or "masculine" or "feminine" was based entirely upon how society organized labor and even survival by biological necessities. For example, women were the primary caregiver for children because the women had to feed the babies. Men were the natural hunters due to their greater physical strength and endurance... they could haul their kill home again. It was practical and efficient. But technology has changed. Society has changed. Those same roles are not necessary or as practical as they once were.

a reply to: Boadicea

Yes and no.

If you watch young children play, you'll see that boys and girls do exhibit patterns in how they tend to play. There are certain styles and play and items they tend to prefer, and that's biology more than nurture.

Boys prefer more active play to girls for example.

Those patterns aren't 100% of course, but they do exist and strongly enough that they are more than just wishful thinking. Certainly, they're strong enough that we should stop trying to train children out of them or stop trying to ignore them or even worse, punishing children for them.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Boadicea

Anonymous surveys of college students show about 1.8% identify as other than their normal gender and 80% have mental health issues. Sample size of the survey is over 60,000, so very big.

Wow -- thank you!

It's the 80% with mental health issues that blows me away. These kids obviously need help that they are not getting. What are we doing to our kids???

Very disturbing.

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Boadicea

Anonymous surveys of college students show about 1.8% identify as other than their normal gender and 80% have mental health issues. Sample size of the survey is over 60,000, so very big.

Wow -- thank you!

It's the 80% with mental health issues that blows me away. These kids obviously need help that they are not getting. What are we doing to our kids???

Very disturbing.

Because to some people, making them feel like victims so they vote a certain way is more important than getting them real help.

a reply to: Boadicea

Researchers relied on data from the Healthy Minds Study, an annual online report on student mental health from college campuses across the country. The new study examined responses of more than 65,200 students from 71 American institutions who were enrolled in college between 2015 and 2017.

Roughly 1,200 respondents said they had an alternate gender identity, meaning they do not identify with the gender that matches their birth sex.

Almost 80 percent of these gender-minority students reported having at least one mental health issue

www.insidehighered.com...

Believe it or not that is a lowball study, other studies I have read show a much larger difference. Partly because they grouped all gender nonforming into one group, and it is not simply trans students.

When looking at just trans groups most studies show a 400% increase in mental health issues.

Here is some data about the general population, not just college students.

While approximately 6.7 percent of the general U.S. population suffers from depression and 18 percent grapple with some iteration of an anxiety disorder, nearly half of all individuals who identify as transgender experience these issues. What's more, over 41 percent of trans men and women are estimated to have attempted suicide — a rate that's nearly nine times as high as the rate of cisgender Americans.

www.psychologytoday.com...

originally posted by: Annee
I'd say you have personal issues with this subject. Why?

It's like you haven't read anything anyone has said in this post. It's fascinating.

Just because we don't all have trans friends like you doesn't mean we're all bigots or have "personal reasons".

Sorry to take your thunder, I know how much you enjoy telling people about your friends.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Boadicea

Yes and no.

If you watch young children play, you'll see that boys and girls do exhibit patterns in how they tend to play. There are certain styles and play and items they tend to prefer, and that's biology more than nurture.

Boys prefer more active play to girls for example.

I know you're right. We know that testosterone and estrogen influence us mentally and emotionally as well as physically. I watched how my son played with his friends compared to how my daughter played with her friends and even compared to how they played together, and boys are by far more physical in their play and interactions, even their solitary activities. I also noticed that the boys were far more impulsive than girls -- if they had an idea, they did it. The girls were more likely to think about the consequences first. I guess that ties in with the physical nature of boys though. Which, of course, ties in with males' higher levels of testosterone, and therefore higher energy and stamina levels.

Those patterns aren't 100% of course, but they do exist and strongly enough that they are more than just wishful thinking. Certainly, they're strong enough that we should stop trying to train children out of them or stop trying to ignore them or even worse, punishing children for them.

Definitely. We can and should acknowledge these predominant traits, but they are what we make of them. Any trait -- male, female or neutral -- can be expressed in positive or negative ways. We can be afraid of our own shadow or we can be reasonably cautious... we can be assertive or we can be bullies... we can be self-confident or we can be narcissists. Likewise, neither masculinity nor femininity is toxic in and of itself, but can be expressed in toxic and damaging ways. There is a time and a purpose for every thing under Heaven...

a reply to: face23785

Because to some people, making them feel like victims so they vote a certain way is more important than getting them real help.

Ugh... and those who want them to take their pills... or get their surgery... or groom them for sexual purposes... and so on...

a reply to: Boadicea

The new rage is to start transitioning kids starting at age 3.

a reply to: Boadicea

the differences you are both discussing , as soon as you started I instantly thought of the hermetic principles.
Ive said this to you before and you agree'd to an extent

the principle of gender , does state that there are inherent differences in all aspects of the universe into the masculine and feminine

The Principle of Gender embodies the idea that gender is manifested in everything

It is said that there must be a balance in these two forces. Without the Feminine, the Masculine is apt to act without restraint, order, or reason, resulting in chaos. The Feminine alone, on the other hand, is apt to constantly reflect and fail to actually do anything, resulting in stagnation. With both the Masculine and Feminine working in conjunction, there is thoughtful action that breeds success, which points out that both the Feminine and the Masculine fulfill each other

it appears there are differences , but these differences are basically the basis of the duality of existence
we need one and the other in order to appreciate the difference yet both are on the same scale
as akin to hot and cold only separated by degrees of difference.