Trans Activism, Trans Regret, and Resources for Desisters and Detransitioners

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

Except it turns out there is no return, and you have a substantial percentage who *do* end up regretting the "hacksaw".

So why are you so happy to bring the hacksaw out so early and let them use it?

a reply to: Boadicea

I lived the spandex era at ground zero from 87-91. It was big, dumb and glorious. And fun. Boys and girls in all sorts of configurations came together for the friction and had a great time. Never let the sex police tell you otherwise.

originally posted by: 0zzymand0s
a reply to: Boadicea

I lived the spandex era at ground zero from 87-91. It was big, dumb and glorious. And fun.

THAT'S what I'm talking about!!!

It was new and fun and liberating and no one took it for anything more or less than it was. The Spandex Era was a just a little after my party days -- I was a young mom with toddlers by then! -- but I've always said I had way more fun than anyone had a right to. Sounds like you did too. What happened? Everyone takes such little silly things so darn serious these days. It seems no one just has fun any more.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

Except it turns out there is no return, and you have a substantial percentage who *do* end up regretting the "hacksaw".

And just think how many could be saved that regret -- and lifelong body damage -- if the experiences of those who know firsthand could share their stories? If the Tumblr and Reddit echo chambers singing the glories of SRS weren't the ONLY voices the gender dysphoric are allowed to hear? If any and all dissenting voices were not bullied and intimidated and de-platformed into silence?

a reply to: ketsuko
In cases of people wanting to lose limbs the best course of action is to chop the limb off.

They know the issue precisely, generally its the left leg. And it's a clear brain problem, but they don't know how to fix it. But you can ease the suffering with a solution that works.

It's poor medicine and it's an acceptance of the failure to be able to deal with it.

But hacksaws are proven to work.

I agree with the OP, I think gender realignment is a brutal practice brought about by widespread misunderstanding and alternative solutions need to be brought forward.

But, if you've got BIIP I'm happy for you to lose your leg.

I'm no advocate, I'm just a hypocrite trying to understand my hypocrisy.

a reply to: Boadicea

Well, you mentioned Bowie in your previous post. I grew up adoring Bowie, wanting to be Bowie. Glam rock took that to caricature levels, obviously, but it was fun as hell and surprise surprise -- we didn't tolerate rapey manhandlers in our own scene any more than the kids do now. But we were never puritans. We didn't wag our fingers at other people for loving how they wanted to love and we didn't get our feelings hurt when someone didn't like us very much. Most importantly, we didn't have to build our world on the bones of those who came before us. We just played their records in thanks.

I'm not saying it was "better" than what these kids are doing now. Oh, who am I kidding? It was better in every way. For both sexes. I have heard that refrain constantly from hundreds of friends over the years. People who are now looking forward to being grandpas and grandmas in the near future.

And we all have a slightly wry smile and a twinkle in our eyes too. All the good in the world, all the love in the world, all the progress in the world wasn't invented by the #metoo generation. In fact, they are only here at all because people, in general, are pretty damn good overall. They would do well to remember that as they push forward.

a reply to: 0zzymand0s

that's a thing I never understood about the hate the straight community get from the gay community or LGBTQ or whatever


in order for more of these people to exist , they rely on straight people making babies
heterosexual reproduction is how we get gay , queer, asexual , pansexual ,trans people in the first place right

that just blows my mind

I also starred you for your love of Bowie, he is my musical hero
I learned to play the guitar because of David Bowie

a reply to: Boadicea

Absolutely and I don't share this thinking all are alike. We supported them and accepted them for who they were in a time it was not a popular stance. Think this was a decade ago. Some of us even did security for an event. So it seemed as if they wanted to let everybody know who supported them either way, their experiences and conclusions.

For me it goes back to how DNA works. Your father is supposed to learn the hard way and teach you so you don't. The people who don't have parents or guidance have to learn on their own.

and absolutely we could all find something to complain about and it doesn't matter if you're at the top or bottom of the spectrum.

a reply to: sapien82

Starred you because you love Bowie too! As the son of a gay man (the late 60s /early 70s were wild!) I promise that there have been faithful straight allies to the cause since the Pink Pages were a thing. I have no idea where the str8 h8 comes from but it's not from anyone I know or associate with, which makes me go, "hrmm."

originally posted by: sapien82
in order for more of these people to exist , they rely on straight people making babies

Absolutely right, blows my mind too.
Those ungrateful bastards.

But what about the gays who were born from gays?

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

They're... humans... just like. everyone. else? HOORAY.

Can we move on to Mars (and beyond) now? Can we focus more on emerging cures for childhood leukemia and less on the dangly bits the research scientists who are working on those cures have? We are all in a race to figure out how to master our environment before we go extinct instead. We can't gender or orientation our way out of it. We are a curious and hard-charging species, but we are learning. In 1985, 30-percent of the world lived in poverty. Today that number is closer to 10-percent. Let's try to maintain perspective. We are standing on the shoulders (and bones) of 100-billion giants. Now is not the time to fracture into tiny identity groups. Now is the time to thrust ourselves "west" and not look down.

originally posted by: 0zzymand0s
a reply to: Boadicea

...we didn't tolerate rapey manhandlers in our own scene any more than the kids do now. But we were never puritans. We didn't wag our fingers at other people for loving how they wanted to love and we didn't get our feelings hurt when someone didn't like us very much.

I do remember those days. Fondly. And no, we didn't care if someone didn't like us... but I don't recall people making a point of telling us either. Maybe because they knew we wouldn't care. But it seems to me there was far more acceptance and respect for our differences back then, as opposed to the "tolerance" of today. I daresay we even appreciated our differences.... our individuality.

I'm not saying it was "better" than what these kids are doing now. Oh, who am I kidding? It was better in every way. For both sexes. I have heard that refrain constantly from hundreds of friends over the years. People who are now looking forward to being grandpas and grandmas in the near future.

Yup. We all see it. I have even had my kids' friends tell me their parents say the same thing. They even seem a little envious! There was a big attitude change somewhere in the 90s and/or 00s... and not for the better.

And we all have a slightly wry smile and a twinkle in our eyes too.

Indeed!

originally posted by: randomthoughts12
a reply to: Boadicea

Absolutely and I don't share this thinking all are alike. We supported them and accepted them for who they were in a time it was not a popular stance. Think this was a decade ago. Some of us even did security for an event. So it seemed as if they wanted to let everybody know who supported them either way, their experiences and conclusions.

That's really special. I feel like your support was so important because it truly was for them and who they are -- whoever they are -- with no conditions. You were there for them before transition, you were there for them during transition, and they knew you would respect them after detransition. Even when not in contact, it obviously gave them strength and inspiration. That's true friendship.

Good job!!!

For me it goes back to how DNA works. Your father is supposed to learn the hard way and teach you so you don't. The people who don't have parents or guidance have to learn on their own.

Excellent point.

originally posted by: sapien82
I also starred you for your love of Bowie, he is my musical hero
I learned to play the guitar because of David Bowie

originally posted by: 0zzymand0s
Starred you because you love Bowie too!"

Here's a funny story for you both... well I still get a chuckle out of it when it comes up...

When my kids were teens, I gave them and some friends a ride downtown one day, and one of their (male) friends was wearing a dress. I was pretty sure he was just trying to tweak his parents' nose so I didn't give it much thought, but he kept scratching his legs, so I told him that if he was going to make a habit of wearing stockings, he'd want to start shaving his legs and putting some lotion on them... My kids thought it was hilarious their mother -- who has absolutely no fashion sense at all -- was giving out fashion advice. But their friend was quite appreciative and thanked me.

The next time I saw him, again giving them a ride, he was dressed in some kind of metallic silver jumpsuit. Again, they were teenagers, he wasn't hurting anyone, so I didn't give it much thought. But later, while talking to my kids, I referred to him as "Major Tom," because I couldn't remember his name. Again, they found this hilarious, and told their friend.

Little did any of us know that he's a HUGE David Bowie fan, and he absolutely loved it. He didn't want me to call him his name after that. So, of course, I always called him Major Tom and he'd smile and give me a hug every time!

Today, he's a phlebotomist, has a wife and two daughters, and my kids still see him occasionally. And we still call him Major Tom!

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Boadicea
Anonymous surveys of college students show about 1.8% identify as other than their normal gender and 80% have mental health issues.

To clarify... 80%... of that 1.8%?

I'd suggest that if so, they aren't looking at the simple fact that they identify as other than their normal gender as a 'mental health issue', while it clearly is.

So, no... 100% have mental health issues.

a reply to: Boadicea

That... was the best story ever. Long live Major Tom!

Although I don’t care for most of the biased sites linked in the OP, that some consider little more than anti-trans hate groups, this is good information that anyone even thinking about transition should read, understand and consider thoroughly. This is especially true if you are a teenage natal female as they make up the most prominent, visible and vocal group of detransitioners.

Maybe a thread examining why this is, why girls are transitioning at a 2:1 ratio to the boys when it used to be just the opposite, why they detransition and what factors beyond the easy excuse of blaming social media are behind this is in order one of these days? I do have my own theories. I’ve read the stories and watched the videos of these detransitioned women, what drove them to think they were trans in the first place and what made them realize they weren’t really trans and it makes me sad on several levels. We were driven by a lot of expectations when I grew up in the 50s and 60s but I can only imagine what it is like being a young girl today with so many mixed signals coming from all directions.

I find some of the comments and perspectives expressed here at good ol’ ATS amusing as well as somewhat disheartening as most exhibit a genuine lack of information and understanding of the trans phenomenon beyond a kneejerk reaction with opinions based on having no practical experience of you know, actually talking to and getting to know someone trans or having someone in your family you know and love that’s trans. To me, reading these posts is somewhat like what I think when I hear a Caucasian person speaking authoritatively on the experiences of being a person of color. You might think you know or can visualize it but until you’ve actually walked a mile in another’s shoes, your opinions are just that and in this venue, often fueled by bias confirming rhetoric by those pushing the gender critical ideology down your throat when none of you really have any stake in of this other than your feels. My advice is to spit, not swallow. Don’t be blinded by propaganda by either side of this discourse or the leanings of your particular political party.

Let’s agree that modern trans activism and the overbearing ideological narrative also being “shoved down everyone’s throat” is a bad thing and is already starting to backfire, mmkay? Let’s agree there’s probably a lot more people entering the transition pipeline than should be and the standards are not what they once were which can’t be good and so called “self-ID” is patently ridiculous but I’ve read some of even the most rabid trans detractors here acknowledge that in theory at least, although exceedingly rare that there truly are some genuinely transsexual folks in the classic sense who as medical anomalies are completely psychosexually and socially inverted in relation to their natal sex that are, always have been and always will remain so their entire lives. The real deal, if you will?

In other words, even some of the most ardent disbelievers here think the possibility can exist for this sort of thing to happen so let’s unpack some of that for a minute because it does and neither the trans activists movement/ideology or the feminist’s “gender critical” movement/ideology is doing these people one damn bit of good and both sides of this debate make me a little irritated.

Speaking of a trans hierarchy or that there are two distinct types of trans people of differing taxonomies or that one is somehow more trans than another is considered transphobic hate speech or elitism by the visible trans activist community and their cancel/silence culture but the fact of the matter is even over a century ago when modern scientific study of the condition began, distinct groups or “types” were identified.

In today’s narrative however, those lines have been intentionally blurred. After WWII and up until the early 1970s, now demonized language was used to note the “types” such as “true transsexual/pseudo transsexual”, “classic/non-classic transsexual”, “primary/secondary transsexual” and so on and it isn’t hard to see some might not like this terminology because it is hierarchical and paints one of the groups in an unflattering, less-than light.

In the late 1980s, Canadian sexologist and researcher Ray Blanchard redefined these types based on sexuality hence the terms HSTS (the real transsexuals) and autogynephiles (AGPs), the group previously called pseudo or secondary transsexuals which really caused head’s to explode and riot in the streets because the AGPs with fetishistic erotic target location errors, i.e. seeing themselves as the woman of their dreams and object of their own desires found Blanchard’s theories completely stigmatizing and pathologizing because it credited their gender dysphoria to a paraphilia and they have tried decades since to debunk the whole thing. Except Blanchard wasn't wrong.

Even modern literature and the current DSM-V categorizes early vs. late onset gender dysphoria which is the PC fresh/SJW way of saying there’s still two types of trans people. In my understanding and experience, so called gender dysphoria comes in two forms with different taxonomies analogous to primary and secondary classifications. Those would be congenital and acquired with the need/desire to transition for each group coming from very different motivations.

What most people don’t realize is that “transgender” has come to mean everything under the sun and is used as such a broad all-inclusive umbrella term that it’s become meaningless and it has been intentionally made that way. I would also like to note that about 90% of the loud “transgender community” and the activists is made up of the group that in the past would not have been in the true/primary camp with the minority remaining 10 or 12%, those rare few “real deal” early onset folks genuinely afflicted and suffering with this condition as a medical problem being more or less erased from the discourse.

For those extraordinary few and some of the sane and reasonable trans people we must try to show a little compassion and understanding and not throw them all under the bus just because the majority of people that fall under the transgender umbrella can be obnoxious, disruptive and unreasonable. (okay, a little crazy too – The Gamestop “Ma’am and Jessica wax-my-balls Yaniv come to mind)

What I’m hoping to encourage people to think about with this post are the distinctions between the types of trans people and to not paint them all with the same broad brush even at the risk of being called a transphobe or a bigot in doing so. The backlash against transgender people as a whole ends up hurting the most vulnerable and innocent and usually the most invisible 10% the most when they’ve had no or little involvement in the reasons causing the backlash in the first place and in fact have very little in common at all with the majority that have co-opted, adopted and twisted the narratives of those truly transsexual to be their own.

Don’t let your distaste for the transgender ideology and activism as a whole erase the lives and needs of those truly and genuinely transsexual. They aren’t the ones trying to change society to fit their paradigm. They’re the ones invisibly doing their best, often at great odds and expense to fit into society, play by the rules and vanish into the woodwork.

I’m confused. Tell me what I’m missing here? These are quotes from a link in the OP (Evidenced Research on Detransition ‘Regret’ for Newsnight) that don’t really support the huge wave of regret or catastrophes being promoted.

This research by Prof. Dr P. T. Cohen-Kettenis, VU University Medical Centre, Department of Medical Psychology, shows that of 162 trans adults, only 1 reported they would choose not to transition again.

Cecilia Dhejne, at the Center for Psychiatric Research, Department of Clinical Neuroscience, Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm, Sweden, found that of people undergoing SRS, regret was about 2.2% and there was a significant decline of regret over time.

Research by Prof Christina Richards; “Detransition rates in a national UK Gender Identity Clinic” has shown that less than 1% of the 3,398 trans patients who accessed NHS support went on to detransition.

This study by the Institute of Clinical Neuroscience, Department of Psychiatry and Neurochemistry, Göteborg University, Sweden, found that the most common reason for detransition is the person couldn’t cope with the family and community support they lost and the experiences of transphobia.

Here’s a few others just for the heck of it. Please keep in mind that somewhere around 85 to 90% of transgender people do not have SRS/GRS (bottom surgery)

Hormonal therapy and sex reassignment: a systematic review and meta‐analysis of quality of life and psychosocial outcomes

Pooling across studies shows that after sex reassignment, 80% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in gender dysphoria; 78% reported significant improvement in psychological symptoms ; 80% reported significant improvement in quality of life and 72% reported significant improvement in sexual function.

Male-to-female transsexualism: a technique, results and long-term follow-up in 66 patients.

CONCLUSION: Male-to-female surgery can achieve excellent cosmetic and functional results. Although the operative technique is partly standardized, surgery remains challenging because of several possible complications. None of the present patients claimed to regret their decision to undergo gender-transforming surgery

Psychosocial outcome and quality of sexual life after sex reassignment surgery: An Italian multicentric study

Results: In both samples we found high levels of satisfaction in all the areas explored (including sexual life after surgery), and levels of psychological and social well-being comparable to those of the general population. Conclusion: Our results support previous studies suggesting that SRS not only alleviates gender dysphoria but also improves quality of life and psychosocial functioning in transsexual persons.

Factors predictive of regret in sex reassignment.

The total cohort consisted of 218 subjects. The results showed that 3.8% of the patients who were sex reassigned during 1972-1992 regretted the measures taken. The cohort was subdivided according to the presence or absence of regret of sex reassignment, and the two groups were compared. The results of logistic regression analysis indicated that two factors predicted regret of sex reassignment, namely lack of support from the patient's family, and the patient belonging to the non-core group of transsexuals. In conclusion, the results show that the outcome of sex reassignment has improved over the years. However, the identified risk factors indicate the need for substantial efforts to support the families and close friends of candidates for sex reassignment.

Myths About Transition Regrets

a reply to: Kalamitous

Bravo. Very cool. You have basically just affirmed what I have been saying for some time.

But it sure seems that you have been dragged kicking and screaming into reality... and have yet to acknowledge (must less condemn) the worst of the Trans agenda and Trans Activist, while quite happy to insult and think the worst of those who dare express real concerns and objections. Not cool.

You may not like the sources in the OP, but you know damn well that they are the only ones even trying to help the many many people who have been, are being, and continue to be harmed by the Trans Terrorism which has been given free reign. You also know that it is the Trans Terrorists and their terrorist tactics that have bullied and intimidated other voices into silence. You know that this silencing of voices has allowed trans bubbles that are convincing kids they must be trans and they must transition and literally creating these desisters and detrainsitioners!!! And you know damn well that this terroristic campaign against women's rights, and women speaking for women, has been enabled and empowered by the Trans apologists allies who have continually attacked and condemned and vilified anyone who dared speak "TERF."

If Trans Activism wasn't taking this way too far, and being as hateful and obnoxious as possible in the process, then the vast majority of people wouldn't give a rat's patootie. Live and let live. The problem is not us. When they stop making their unreasonable, unacceptable and dangerous demands on the rest of us, we can begin to clean up the trail of broken psyches and bodies, and address the needs of the genuinely gender dysphoric.

a reply to: Kalamitous

Well, then, I guess these organizations and advocacy groups will find that out and just close up shop, eh?

Or maybe not. Maybe they know something -- and people -- you don't know. People not counted in those studies. People in need of exactly this service.

I don't see why numbers matter to you. You said yourself that ROGD is a problem, and that some of the stories you've read broke your heart. Those aren't enough? Is there a particular number of detransitioners/desisters needed before anyone can offer help? A certain ratio that has to be reached? If it's just one or two or a dozen, are they just # out of luck? Is it up to you to decide who or how many deserve to get the help they actually need when Trans Activism and Trans ideology fails them?