Church of Christ Shooting: 2 Dead, 1 Critical In White Settlement, Texas

a reply to: vonclod

OK ...

If X shouldnt' have one, then neither should Y, and if Y shouldn't have one, then neither should Z, but if we don't allow Z to have one, then why do we let A, B, C have them? And on and on it goes until pretty soon, it's not legal for anyone, so only those who don't care about legal have them.

Do you know how many of the mass shooters skirted or outright broke the laws on the books already in order to have their firearms? I know the Sutherland shooter did, so did several others.

But, yeah, let's pass more laws because those certainly seem to be taking to them!

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: vonclod

The shooter is a poster boy for who shouldn't have one(go ahead and argue he should)..but how could you stop him.

That's the whole point. There is no way to prevent someone hell bent on getting a firearm from getting a firearm. It simply cannot be done. We can make it harder to get a firearm, we can pass all the laws in the world, but if a person wants a firearm badly enough, they can get one.

So since there is no way to actually remove firearms from society, the next most logical alternative is to limit the damage they can do. One does that by making sure that anyone who decides to harm another with a firearm is stopped as quickly as possible to minimize damage. The best way to do that is to allow others to carry a firearm, since it is pointless to throw sticks at someone packing heat. It's called a balance of power, and while it may not be theoretically optimal, it is the most optimal solution given the realities of life.

TheRedneck

I understand the argument, I'm just not convinced a bunch more unqualified people packing makes it better, sometime I'm sure it would, but there of course would be times it would go sideways. But that is just my opinion, I do understand where you're coming from.

We have a fair bit of gun control here, so, it's just my reality. I understand U.S. citizens have a different reality and do not want it changed, well, some do, some don't.

I grew up shooting at the rod and gun club, did archery too, my dad gunsmithed, so, while I'm ok with them, and enjoy using them..I'm ok with our laws..no cc or oc

a reply to: vonclod

You know ... because nothing says unqualified like a former FBI agent.

Of course, these days with what we're learning about the FBI, you may have a point.

a reply to: ketsuko

But, yeah, let's pass more laws because those certainly seem to be taking to them!

I don't recall saying anything about changing laws.

You have too many guns in circulation, so it's pointless to try and control it, at this point..maybe some safety training if everyone is to be packing.

The price you are paying for the 2nd..fill your boots!

a reply to: vonclod

You make it sound like this guy stumbled into the church with his shotgun and it misfired into some parishoners by accident.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: vonclod

You know ... because nothing says unqualified like a former FBI agent.

Of course, these days with what we're learning about the FBI, you may have a point.

Um, I never said anyone in particular was unqualified, just said it might not always work out if a bunch of untrained civies start blasting away in a situation.

a reply to: ketsuko
I don't know what the f your talking about?

a reply to: vonclod

You have too many guns in circulation, so it's pointless to try and control it, at this point..maybe some safety training if everyone is to be packing.

I'm just trying to figure out how safety training would have deterred the shooter?

Because in this case, even though you had about 6 different parishoners with firearms, there was no friendly fire. Clearly, the wild west did not break out, so I'm not sure where the safety training comment applies to this particular situation. You have a security guard who had lots of prior gun training as a former FBI agent and clearly knew what he was doing, and you had the others with their weapons, none of whom shot anyone except the shooter who was the target, and you're talking about safety training?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: vonclod

You have too many guns in circulation, so it's pointless to try and control it, at this point..maybe some safety training if everyone is to be packing.

I'm just trying to figure out how safety training would have deterred the shooter?

Because in this case, even though you had about 6 different parishoners with firearms, there was no friendly fire. Clearly, the wild west did not break out, so I'm not sure where the safety training comment applies to this particular situation. You have a security guard who had lots of prior gun training as a former FBI agent and clearly knew what he was doing, and you had the others with their weapons, none of whom shot anyone except the shooter who was the target, and you're talking about safety training?

Ahh, I see your confusion.

I'm not saying anything about the pos felon shooter. My point is at least if everyone is packing, it might be wise for those people to have some common sense basic training..I cant fathom how you would think some training is a bad idea

So here is this guy...

Kinnunen's ex-wife, Cindy Glasgow-Voegel, filed for a protective order in January 2012 in Grady County, Oklahoma. In her statement in the order, she wrote, "Keith is a violent, paranoid person with a long line of assault and batteries with and without firearms.

Lets say he didn't have a gun but stole a large truck and waited until a large group came out of the church after sermon. How many people do you think he could have killed in a few seconds?

My point is always the same, people who want to kill will kill....I would bet if you look at other alternatives he could have used a gun might have been the least destructive over all.

I wish old McVeigh went in guns a blazing instead of how he decided to do it...

a reply to: ketsuko
If you think any kind of safety traing is a bad or unneeded, when your child turns 16, hand them the keys to the car with no instruction..good idea?

originally posted by: MrBlaq
Thousand's of Christians poured accolades upon the man who shot dead a
gunman inside a Texas Church.

After reading Fox's Book of Martyrs, it's apparent their understanding
of Christ teaching concerning retaliation vs turning the other cheek
is not a modern day practice.

I can just imagine if Christians came under mass persecution
as those recorded in Fox's book, they would seek to defend
themselves by killing their persecutors first.

The disconnect is incredible.

Turning the other cheek ONLY APPLIES TO NON LIFE THREATENING SITUATIONS. You obviously have not studied the verses and meanings you cite. You are also allowed to defend another from death as well. So turn the other cheek only applies until it gets dangerous. God does not want you to be suicidal.

a reply to: vonclod

I get what you're saying and no, it's never a bad idea to know how any equipment operates, when to use/not use it, etc.

Common sense gun safety:

1. Guns are not toys.

2. Always assume the weapon is loaded.

3. Never point it at something unless you intend to use it.

Common sense training:

1. Take it out of the box and have someone who knows, show you.

2. If you don't know, ask.

3. Always treat the weapon with respect, like it's loaded.

4. Practice, practice, practice.

Seems easy enough. Even young children, if taught correctly and competently, know these basic rules. How many country kids get guns as presents for their birthdays and not only don't shoot up other people, but know how dangerous they are and how to treat them with respect?

originally posted by: thov420
a reply to: chr0naut

There is absolutely no way, zero percent chance, of eliminating danger from life. Just taking your next breath involves inherent risks. Getting out of bed, walking out your front door, crossing the street, etc. ad infinitum. Everybody who's ever lived, has or will die.

Then we should all embrace the inevitable right now? What sort of reasoning is that. Of course danger can be reduced with a little thought and intelligent action.

That said, thoughts out to all involved. Tragic this happened at all, even worse that people lost their lives because of it. Even good guys with guns cannot hope to save everybody, but thank whoever they were there to put a stop to it before it got worse.

Surely God, who does exactly whatever we want, and wraps us in some heavenly cotton wool, would have prevented the first death in the first place. That didn't happen, so God can't be like that.

The true God allows us to kill and injure each other. To die, horribly because circumstances dictate. To suffer from our own choices.

The true God Himself died, tortured to death. For us.

He knows what it is He is doing, He has lived it and He has died, too. And, as the Bible explains, He has reasons for it beyond what we can now conceive. He loves us enough to take us beyond this.

a reply to: thov420





You understand!

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: CthruU

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: Sillyolme
Well its been two weeks right?

abcnews.go.com...

Roughly every fifteen days now.

But this American carnage ends right here and ends right now..... sure it does.

I'm assuming you are for getting rid of all those nasty gun thingeys and then everything will be fine.

Then every Christian, then every Jew...

You know, those religious radicals.

Then a little bit of a purge (For America!!!) to get rid of those who don't think like the left...

Then those that are left will just settle in comfortably and just be proud to be part of the 4th Reich.

/facepalm

To the OP, sad that there are crazies out there.

Too bad there are gun-free zones where this can happen.

Christians don't kill people, but guns do (once more).

A gun is an inanimate object.

So no, guns don't kill people.

Hard to get into a serious conversation with someone who can't comprehend that.

Christians kill people all the time, actually... although the motive is generally not their religion.

Exactly, and hows the irony - the purp was shot and killed by the parishioner in his church.

Thoust shall not kill. Clear to see that parishioner takes his religion seriously.

It's disappointing to see people take the opportunity to attack a hero, slam his religion and encourage a shooter.

Wheres the encouragement?????
I never attacked anyone just pointed out the irony.
Indeed slam his religion - its two faced.

And now that mans law allows weapons in church - well, how christian can it be.

Narrow minded. AS USUAL.

originally posted by: CthruU

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: CthruU

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: Sillyolme
Well its been two weeks right?

abcnews.go.com...

Roughly every fifteen days now.

But this American carnage ends right here and ends right now..... sure it does.

I'm assuming you are for getting rid of all those nasty gun thingeys and then everything will be fine.

Then every Christian, then every Jew...

You know, those religious radicals.

Then a little bit of a purge (For America!!!) to get rid of those who don't think like the left...

Then those that are left will just settle in comfortably and just be proud to be part of the 4th Reich.

/facepalm

To the OP, sad that there are crazies out there.

Too bad there are gun-free zones where this can happen.

Christians don't kill people, but guns do (once more).

A gun is an inanimate object.

So no, guns don't kill people.

Hard to get into a serious conversation with someone who can't comprehend that.

Christians kill people all the time, actually... although the motive is generally not their religion.

Exactly, and hows the irony - the purp was shot and killed by the parishioner in his church.

Thoust shall not kill. Clear to see that parishioner takes his religion seriously.

It's disappointing to see people take the opportunity to attack a hero, slam his religion and encourage a shooter.

Wheres the encouragement?????
I never attacked anyone just pointed out the irony.
Indeed slam his religion - its two faced.

And now that mans law allows weapons in church - well, how christian can it be.

Narrow minded. AS USUAL.

Are you disappointed that lives were saved?

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

originally posted by: CthruU

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: Sillyolme
Well its been two weeks right?

abcnews.go.com...

Roughly every fifteen days now.

But this American carnage ends right here and ends right now..... sure it does.

I'm assuming you are for getting rid of all those nasty gun thingeys and then everything will be fine.

Then every Christian, then every Jew...

You know, those religious radicals.

Then a little bit of a purge (For America!!!) to get rid of those who don't think like the left...

Then those that are left will just settle in comfortably and just be proud to be part of the 4th Reich.

/facepalm

To the OP, sad that there are crazies out there.

Too bad there are gun-free zones where this can happen.

Christians don't kill people, but guns do (once more).

A gun is an inanimate object.

So no, guns don't kill people.

Hard to get into a serious conversation with someone who can't comprehend that.

Christians kill people all the time, actually... although the motive is generally not their religion.

Exactly, and hows the irony - the purp was shot and killed by the parishioner in his church.

Thoust shall not kill. Clear to see that parishioner takes his religion seriously.

Except in self defense. The shall not kill commandment means murder. You would have known this if you were serious about serving the Lord.

Im not interested in serving any lord. FULL STOP.

Im only interested in serving humanities best interest.

You would be the same if you where serious about being a good person dare i say christian.

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: CthruU

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: Sillyolme
Well its been two weeks right?

abcnews.go.com...

Roughly every fifteen days now.

But this American carnage ends right here and ends right now..... sure it does.

I'm assuming you are for getting rid of all those nasty gun thingeys and then everything will be fine.

Then every Christian, then every Jew...

You know, those religious radicals.

Then a little bit of a purge (For America!!!) to get rid of those who don't think like the left...

Then those that are left will just settle in comfortably and just be proud to be part of the 4th Reich.

/facepalm

To the OP, sad that there are crazies out there.

Too bad there are gun-free zones where this can happen.

Christians don't kill people, but guns do (once more).

A gun is an inanimate object.

So no, guns don't kill people.

Hard to get into a serious conversation with someone who can't comprehend that.

Christians kill people all the time, actually... although the motive is generally not their religion.

Exactly, and hows the irony - the purp was shot and killed by the parishioner in his church.

Thoust shall not kill. Clear to see that parishioner takes his religion seriously.

I know you were just trying to be a troll, because you're the kind of scum who will try to exploit something like this, but for anyone who sees this and is actually interested in learning, Christianity does not bar you from killing in self-defense. There are numerous Bible verses that make it clear you're totally justified in killing someone else for defense purposes. This is the kind of nonsense that uneducated idiots spout to try to attack religion.

Im "scum" or "uneducated idiot" - you reckon, for what? - pointing out the irony.

You are NO more Christian than the purp, your so shallow and quick to label people in a derogatory manner.

And for your simple minded benefit- it was not self defense unless the perp was pointing it directly at him, but incase you want to learn - show me one verse that says thoust can kill on consecrated ground.

What a peabrain. You know nothing at all ohh shallow one.

Never tarnish my soul with your measely presence again. You hear.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: CthruU

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: CthruU

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: Sillyolme
Well its been two weeks right?

abcnews.go.com...

Roughly every fifteen days now.

But this American carnage ends right here and ends right now..... sure it does.

I'm assuming you are for getting rid of all those nasty gun thingeys and then everything will be fine.

Then every Christian, then every Jew...

You know, those religious radicals.

Then a little bit of a purge (For America!!!) to get rid of those who don't think like the left...

Then those that are left will just settle in comfortably and just be proud to be part of the 4th Reich.

/facepalm

To the OP, sad that there are crazies out there.

Too bad there are gun-free zones where this can happen.

Christians don't kill people, but guns do (once more).

A gun is an inanimate object.

So no, guns don't kill people.

Hard to get into a serious conversation with someone who can't comprehend that.

Christians kill people all the time, actually... although the motive is generally not their religion.

Exactly, and hows the irony - the purp was shot and killed by the parishioner in his church.

Thoust shall not kill. Clear to see that parishioner takes his religion seriously.

It's disappointing to see people take the opportunity to attack a hero, slam his religion and encourage a shooter.

Wheres the encouragement?????
I never attacked anyone just pointed out the irony.
Indeed slam his religion - its two faced.

And now that mans law allows weapons in church - well, how christian can it be.

Narrow minded. AS USUAL.

Are you disappointed that lives were saved?

Is that a serious question???????? Of course im not disapointed lives where saved - the contrary. But emotions are running way to high and people are jumping to conclusions without stopping to actually read what is said.

The fact you felt justified enough to ask me that really lowers your credibility in my book.

Totally unjustified question.