Bernie Sanders: Would he really be that bad.?.?

I feel like the important thing to remember about Bernie, and plenty of other Democratic Socialists, is that they are trying to sell their ideas.

This isnt some rare thing, but when we look into everything from stated policies from Democratic Socialists to that recent video of the DSA... We can see there is A LOT going on there beyond "socialism."

Even if one believes socialism is the way forward, it would be advisable to be VERY wary of these folks. Like so many things nowadays, what you would be voting in is only tangentially related to socialism.

The green new deal is a perfect example of the techniques used.

a reply to: Serdgiam

One of the problems is who ate the conservatives talking about the technological revolution? Worse than the industrial revolution where we created primary and high school to retrain farmers?

Andrew Yang is raising this mostly but bernie free school and healthcare stuff comes from trying to solve the mental health crisis and economy changing too fast to adapt properly...

We actually need conservatives and liberals to work together on social objectives one to work for the labor and the other to control spending and make sure the programs are effective and not wasteful.

I'll vote for him. He made allot of good points especially with health care. It's insane anyone would want otherwise.

He plans to fund his ideas from taxing wallstreet speculation. Again, not a bad idea. Especially considering the tax payers bailed out wall street and once you get cancer you'll have to sell your house to pay the bill, and even that wont be enough. So yea, # wallstreet.

a reply to: Assassin82

He pushes the "Trump is a racist" BS too much. He'd be very bad. Anyone who pushes that is bad because Trump is farther from racism than the very people calling him a racist.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Stupidsecrets

Denmark is a nation of high personal wealth.

So just fyi Americans have record personal debt, corporations have record debt, and small business have record debt...also they are carrying debt longer ...

And once again it's the rate of increase of debt to gdp which you have not addressed at all..

Perhaps you just don't get how bubbles are made and what happens when the gdp is being squashed by loan payments...when interest alone on the loans is creating a black hole that is a substantial part of the entire GDP.

I guess I don't get how this impact me personally is my point so sorry for the confusion. I honestly could not believe my good fortune when the market crashed in 08. I got an amazing deal on a home. Practically stole it. Warren Buffet also did well. He raped the hell out of the Federal Government.

Really depends on one's circumstances I guess. Sounds like you live in a lot of debt and have loans and are worried. I live debt free so that is likely our disconnect.

a reply to: Flesh699

Obama said that too....and Bush...and Clinton....will never happen. They sell a dream of screw the big guy and behind the scenes the big guy is paying them.

Sorry, no president since Kennedy has followed through on his campaign speeches like Trump. You don't have to like him but you can like the results.

Bernie has introduced over 900 Bills and 3 became laws. Those 3? To rename post offices.

Is this who you want leading your country?

a reply to: Stupidsecrets

So you don't understand the value of currency?

Interest rates? 401k investments etc...

What in the world makes you think I have debt? Because i actually understand economics?

originally posted by: matafuchs
a reply to: Flesh699

Obama said that too....and Bush...and Clinton....will never happen. They sell a dream of screw the big guy and behind the scenes the big guy is paying them.

Sorry, no president since Kennedy has followed through on his campaign speeches like Trump. You don't have to like him but you can like the results.

Bernie has introduced over 900 Bills and 3 became laws. Those 3? To rename post offices.

Is this who you want leading your country?

I dont either like him or his results. He is a reincarnation of bill clinton.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Stupidsecrets

So you don't understand the value of currency?

Interest rates? 401k investments etc...

What in the world makes you think I have debt? Because i actually understand economics?

I understand it. I just don't understand why you are so concerned about the deficit. How does it impact you personally. I live debt free so if the market crashed like 08 so what. I would probably go buy another house and definitely buy more personal stock. It would not impact me other than restaurants I like closing or other businesses which would be awful because I do try to support local businesses.

I think if we met him halfway on some of his more extreme policies he wouldn't be so bad. Left to his own devices he would raise taxes to high heaven and chase away all the rich and corporations and eventually bankrupt this country. His ideas sound great on paper but someone's gotta pay for it and the aforementioned will have none of it.

originally posted by: Stupidsecrets

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Stupidsecrets

So you don't understand the value of currency?

Interest rates? 401k investments etc...

What in the world makes you think I have debt? Because i actually understand economics?

I understand it. I just don't understand why you are so concerned about the deficit. How does it impact you personally. I live debt free so if the market crashed like 08 so what. I would probably go buy another house and definitely buy more personal stock. It would not impact me other than restaurants I like closing or other businesses which would be awful because I do try to support local businesses.

Jesus dude I have explained it and no you don't get it.


When you have to pay more in interest, it crowds out your ability to spend on other things.

Debt to GDP destroys the budget further like a whirlpool. It literally destroys investments. It devalues the currency.

With personal, and business debt it creates defaults. Like we are seeing in autoloans, heading into housing etc...which effect inflation by the need to increase the budget and print more and money...

You keep saying you get it but you dont.

Let me just explain clearly how bad by 2025 it paying the debt interest will surpass defense spending and get worse from there.

originally posted by: conspiracy nut
I think if we met him halfway on some of his more extreme policies he wouldn't be so bad. Left to his own devices he would raise taxes to high heaven and chase away all the rich and corporations and eventually bankrupt this country. His ideas sound great on paper but someone's gotta pay for it and the aforementioned will have none of it.

The rich but also the middle and upper middle would cutback spending if taxes go up. I know for me, I would cutback spending out of spite for raising my taxes. That means less dollars bouncing around the economy 5-6 times on average.

People start getting laid off, businesses close. The poor may get their free stuff but what is the point. They can't enjoy life anymore. Less opportunity to earn more income, destroys their motivation to even try. And good luck with that free college degree finding a job. The competition will be so fierce because all the free stuff shutdown the economy.

The difference is Bernie has actual plans written out with the budgets for everything he proposes. So the wealthy elite get taxed half of one percent on future shares speculation to pay for free education and student loan forgiveness? Oh noes! He doesn’t just say “we have the bestest best plan for healthcare!” Like others.

As to fiscal conservatives, the reason there are none is the same reason there are few socialists in congress. Because it takes away from corporate profit, and 99% of representatives are corporate whores. Now the military is the largest expenditure, larger than all the rest combined. It’s a direct handout to the arms industries, and the executive force of the will of our bankers, oil corporations and arms industries to dominate the world. So we definitely can’t cut that. But things that are publicly funded, like social security or social programs? That don’t interfere with corporate profit? Those are appropriate for slashing, so those tax dollars and income withholdings can be diverted to corporate profit, as they should.

And I tell you what, stupidsecrets, the financial collapses will directly effect you. Through increased crime, poverty, and the deterioration of future jobs for your kids. The likelihood you will be involved in random acts of crime or violence. In the erosion of your civil liberties as the police state strengthens in response to their loss of control over an angry and deteriorating society. Shortsightedness and denial will not protect you, neither will your guns and security systems.

a reply to: Stupidsecrets

Without a plan for training we will probably see the riots we had during the industrial revolution. Like labor day.


Hey learn to code truckers sorry about your job.

originally posted by: Stupidsecrets

originally posted by: conspiracy nut
I think if we met him halfway on some of his more extreme policies he wouldn't be so bad. Left to his own devices he would raise taxes to high heaven and chase away all the rich and corporations and eventually bankrupt this country. His ideas sound great on paper but someone's gotta pay for it and the aforementioned will have none of it.

The rich but also the middle and upper middle would cutback spending if taxes go up. I know for me, I would cutback spending out of spite for raising my taxes. That means less dollars bouncing around the economy 5-6 times on average.

People start getting laid off, businesses close. The poor may get their free stuff but what is the point. They can't enjoy life anymore. Less opportunity to earn more income, destroys their motivation to even try. And good luck with that free college degree finding a job. The competition will be so fierce because all the free stuff shutdown the economy.

See, you say free stuff. I say a tax for universal healthcare that is far less than I currently pay for healthcare that I still can’t afford to use. That 6% tax? Leaves far more money in my pocket and actually offers a health system I can use whenever I feel sick rather than just when I’m scared I might die.

I don’t get why when it’s a wealth transfer to the rich, like the huge amount of gdp growth that has totally been seized by the wealthy over the last 30 years through restricted wage growth, outsourcing, market manipulation, corporate lobbying, etc, meanwhile trying to correct that transfer is derided as “socialism” and “class war”. As if class war only exists when it’s helping the poor and working class. People crying over raising minimum wages, like the mega corporations aren’t making more money than ever before, and a reduced level of profits (the horror!) in order to raise wages is unthinkable.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Stupidsecrets

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Stupidsecrets

So you don't understand the value of currency?

Interest rates? 401k investments etc...

What in the world makes you think I have debt? Because i actually understand economics?

I understand it. I just don't understand why you are so concerned about the deficit. How does it impact you personally. I live debt free so if the market crashed like 08 so what. I would probably go buy another house and definitely buy more personal stock. It would not impact me other than restaurants I like closing or other businesses which would be awful because I do try to support local businesses.

Jesus dude I have explained it and no you don't get it.


When you have to pay more in interest, it crowds out your ability to spend on other things.

Debt to GDP destroys the budget further like a whirlpool. It literally destroys investments. It devalues the currency.

With personal, and business debt it creates defaults. Like we are seeing in autoloans, heading into housing etc...which effect inflation by the need to increase the budget and print more and money...

You keep saying you get it but you dont.

Let me just explain clearly how bad by 2025 it paying the debt interest will surpass defense spending and get worse from there.

But I don't pay interests. I never have. On a personal level it has no impact on my life. I have a staunch aversion to paying interests. I can't even understand why someone would pay high interests in the first place or take out massive student loans but it does seem to be a problem in the US.

Put it this way, if I don't understand finance why am I doing well financially and live debt free despite starting out poor in life? I didn't win the lottery or inherited anything. I think I understand it quite well. Probably more than you.

originally posted by: Stupidsecrets

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Stupidsecrets

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Stupidsecrets

So you don't understand the value of currency?

Interest rates? 401k investments etc...

What in the world makes you think I have debt? Because i actually understand economics?

I understand it. I just don't understand why you are so concerned about the deficit. How does it impact you personally. I live debt free so if the market crashed like 08 so what. I would probably go buy another house and definitely buy more personal stock. It would not impact me other than restaurants I like closing or other businesses which would be awful because I do try to support local businesses.

Jesus dude I have explained it and no you don't get it.


When you have to pay more in interest, it crowds out your ability to spend on other things.

Debt to GDP destroys the budget further like a whirlpool. It literally destroys investments. It devalues the currency.

With personal, and business debt it creates defaults. Like we are seeing in autoloans, heading into housing etc...which effect inflation by the need to increase the budget and print more and money...

You keep saying you get it but you dont.

Let me just explain clearly how bad by 2025 it paying the debt interest will surpass defense spending and get worse from there.

But I don't pay interests. I never have. On a personal level it has no impact on my life. I have a staunch aversion to paying interests. I can't even understand why someone would pay high interests in the first place or take out massive student loans but it does seem to be a problem in the US.

Put it this way, if I don't understand finance why am I doing well financially and live debt free despite starting out poor in life? I didn't win the lottery or inherited anything. I think I understand it quite well. Probably more than you.

So you don't know what the nation debt is and that it has variable rate interest you pay..got it now I get why it's not your concern.

a reply to: Stupidsecrets

Let me just iterate how naive you are to national debt. We are getting close to the interest payment being 1/4 of the entire annual budget.

If you are a financial genius surely you understand that meaning...

You pay the interest in taxes and devalued money.

a reply to: luthier

There arent many people, right or left or center, that are talking about such things in a helpful context. Generations upon generations of our Cultural Story say technological progress is always good, donchyaknow. Hell, even the industrial revolution didnt really create any addendums on the possibilities, like "hey, it worked out ok, but maybe we could screw things up if we do this wrong?"

I do like the conversations that Yang is trying to create, and while I vehemently disagree that dispensing currency is the answer he thinks it is, his UBI isnt nearly as "crazy" as many make it out to be.

Id actually argue that some conservatives are talking about it though. It just tends to be from the angle of video games, etc. in the same vein as the "devils music."

All that said, I dont really see it as a "conservative role" to do so in the first place. There is plenty of crossover, but on average a conservative will try to maintain and preserve what is seen as "good," right here and now. The opposite side will tend to see what could be good in the future.

This thinking can lead to some hangups, to be sure. On the colloquial right, it can foster the notion that all change is bad and "I had to do it this way, so you do too" thinking. On the colloquial left, this can lead to thinking all change is good and there is little to nothing of merit here and now.

I do agree that working together is critical, but not in the sense that the "sides" need to change the premise of all of their thinking. The two seemingly opposed approaches actually foster stability at the same time as growth. So many nowadays feel that they need to agree on everything before working together is possible. Thats a big, big problem and one of the reasons I was excommunicated from the "left." It wasnt enough to be tolerant of something, you had to actively support it. 'Nother rant for 'nother time though..

I see it as superficially the same as a race car or motorcycle taking a turn. The "right" would grampa their way through it, while all the other cars were lapping them repeatedly. The "left" would just slam open the throttle and careen off into a wall. Together though.. They take a perfect, smooth line.

Not a perfect analogy, admittedly. There is only one driver, afterall. But we need to figure out how to pilot the vehicle of our society together.. and put simply, it is FAR too vast and diverse of a system to just expect and hope everyone can learn to take that perfect line themselves. Even if we could, we would then miss out on the benefits the two opposing approaches can provide, like gramps missing that oil slick on the track, or johnny rocket finding a shortcut (not legal in racing, but I feel that actually makes the analogy more accurately nuanced). Bluntly though, if I must choose between gramps and johnny.. Im picking gramps every time.

That ^^^^^ is the ideal I see. However, if we include groups like the DSA.. We would never even get to the track in the first place, because such things are triggering. Seriously. Remembering, of course, that modern socialists and democratic socialists are far beyond politics or even what "socialism" means to many people (good or bad). They have a fully encompassing ideology of life in general, exactly the same as a non-theistic religion. For better or worse (I believe worse), it is an ideology where they feel we all must submit in everything from politics to social interactions to art. And, not just submit, but actively spread and support the belief system. That should sound familiar.

So, that is what I truly believe folks would be voting for by voting for someone like Bernie. Just because the spokesman is typically more marketable doesnt mean its going to be "socialism" as any of us "normies" think of it. Likewise, just because the spokesman is significantly less marketable, doesnt mean the end result will be armageddon (like with Yang, or even Trump).

Oof.. Long post even for me. Ah well.. You hearing me AI?