Chat Room seeds of discontent: Levitationjunkie, ColdAnger, etc...

William, my apologies for not posting sooner, but as i've been busy, tired and mind-muddled i didn't think i could justify your post with the type of response it deserves. The following statement should further highlight why a post by myself hasn't been so forthcoming.

I specifically requested that we don't take this discussion to a new thread and declined yours and zion's invitation to do so. I wish you'd have respected my decision. In part of a conversation with agentmulder320 in the chat room, one which you edited and posted as the opener to this thread, i expressed my sentiments equally as clearly as i shall do here.

I have on numerous occasions aired my feelings in disagreement with the running of this forum in public posting, chat room conversations and via u2u. I feel it uneccessary and exhausting to go over these points again. In that time i've recieved enough feedback to conclude that most do not see or understand where i am coming from and that the large majority of members are happy or at least content with your operations.

My opinions remain unaltered and i wish i could let these issues lie, but i feel more than ever, especially after UP's warn on CA, the revelation of his u2u messages and your demand for an apology from AV, that certain important issues remain unaddressed. If you genuinely wish to settle this storm, then i would appreciate a polite and civil response to this post.

Please be aware that i'm simply trying to clear the air. I'm not looking to play games as you may believe. If you think that by speaking in the chat room about my concerns i've been behind your back or that discussions there have less credibility than in the forum then i'm dissapointed.

ok....

Do you have any interest in specific conspiracy theories or subscribe to any conspiracy theories? Are you host to any alternative theories? Or does the title supreme skeptic overlord forbid you. It just seems strange to me that somebody apparently uninterested in conspiracies or solely interested in debunking them is running one of the biggest online discussion forums for such issues.

Do you think moderators or admins are in any way responsible for the somewhat chaotic scenarios we have found ourselves in? and could alternative methods have proved more effective in resolving conflicts? Do you consider telling me to piss off via u2u one of those times when you could have exercised such alternative methods, when i was simply voicing my discontent, at your request, just as you've asked me to do here? I hope i can expect some different treatment this time, and perhaps an apology.

I think it's the moderators and administrators job to be setting a better example for other members. In my opinion they have a duty to explain the reasons for bannings/warnings and any other actions which could be perceived as unjust. Do you seriously expect everyone to be able to trust you? On a conspiracy site of this nature? If you are justified in your actions then there is no harm in revealing the purpose of those actions. And if a member disagrees they should have the opportunity to discuss it instead of being treated with the ignorance that alot of mods/admins have shown recently. This would have saved alot of confusion and a banning for Abe if it was made known that the new member was posting false information.

In relation to posts you consider/determine to be idiotic....
ATS thrives on variations in culture, opinion and unfortunately, IQ levels. This is a place where people can learn and many come to learn. If such posts are as idiotic as you proclaim you should override the nonsical trash by presenting plain fact and highlighting the obvious. Believe it or not some people will never have heard of the holocaust or know very little about it. Uninformed observers could easily depart thinking that the trash he posted was true if there was reason for you to delete the post with no explanation. If the evidence speaks for itself then where is the harm in shutting down an argument by presenting such material?

Numerous people have declared or are under the illusion that you own the site. I've never known you to correct them. This can cause some confusion and perhaps puts more focus on you than you want or is necessary, as you're most likely to take the heat for any problems(i admit i'm guilty of making you the focus of my discontent). I am still willing and intending to contact simon, as you suggested, to discover his outlook on the recent changes. Can you clarify for us what his interests in the site are, or shall i wait for his response? He's rarely here and seems to have so little involvement with the site even if you do require his thumbs up for any major decisions.


"But I don't know if it would be the same if it had 10,000 members, 80% nonsense, and was compelled to move forward on grounds of commerciality."

"As MaskedAvatar said, in time this site will grow and develop. At that time, commercialism will ruin the whole dynamic of your (simongray, et al) vision and ruin all that was encompassed in the origin of ............ATS

I hope not"

As far as motives for the growth of ATS i don't think MaskedAvatar and Tryffic were far from wrong. I'm concerned with the fact that you (william, or perhaps it was simon's call?), have not been entirely honest about the reason for the changes. You confessed to me via u2u that simon was looking to turn this site into one that can provide him with some income. And as you're asking me to discuss the motives i can only imagine you don't mind me posting this information(pls feel free to edit if not). I'm sorry, but i just find it sickening to see this place being run like a businness. And accept that as my perception, nothing more. You say that your primary concern is the community but i've found that difficult to believe. The community is making more and more sacrifices as the site grows larger than ever. I agree wholeheartedly with Tryffic in that commercialism is ruining the dynamic of your vision and especially all that ATS once stood for.

Now let me make clear why i'm unsettled by the introduction of the debate tournament and other features. I see it as control of debate because the chosen topics will considerably influence discussions elsewhere on the board and provide a channeling of ideas. It's effect is enhanced by it being the greeting for members on their entrance to the forum. Whilst it will also divert attention and thoughts away from the usual alternative discussions i love so much at ATS. The polls to decide which topics would be debated are simply an illusion of democracy, for who chose which topics were good enough to be entered into the poll? and it was hardly suprising to see the top polls correlating with the most popular discussion in the media at that time. You may aswell have asked ted turner to decide which topics to debate. As i've expressed many a time, the reason i come to ATS is for the diveristy of opinion and topics, and the sharing and learning that goes hand in hand. I see clans, awards, bars etc. as another threat for similar reasons, it sets an example for what is acceptable and desired discussion, and when members see people being warned and banned so often as recently they will most likely conform.

I understand that this is still a time of transition, perhaps always will be. As i've now had ample opportunity to air my feelings i'm happy to let things lie, only posting about it this last time due to your request and to hopefully help settle a few matters. Please accept my apologies if during past weeks i have been unnecessarily harsh or if some of this ranting seems brutal, off the mark or out of line. No hostility here, i'm just seeking the best for this community as you are. I've tried to look at this from every point of view, to examine my own actions over recent times and to empaphise with your situation. I hope that you can find it in you to do the same. Things have gotten out of hand and i'm about as sick of this as you are.

Now it took me bloody ages to write that, and i've tried to touch on every corner of my 'seeds', despite the fact i've still been breif in places and could have elaborated even more if i had another couple of days. Another reason why this post hasn't come sooner. So I'm off to get some sleep.

Here's a reference to a couple of my previous posts which may contain some relevance.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks for responding.

First, some clarification... I'm not sure how my personal theories relate, but I've been doing this a while. I was involved in running a conspiracy BBS in the mid 1980's, and the "Political Conspiracy Forum" on CompuServe. I've published a few articles, two picked up by Omni... one was on an alternative spin on the Roswell story based on our research at the MUFON section at the State University of New York at Buffalo.

As a result of my involvement, I've become skeptical of many "alternative theories" not because I don't believe there are spooks to be discovered, but because there is much more "disinformation" found in the "conspiracy camp" than in the so-called "party line". This is the source of my sketpticism. Not a blanket skeptical stance against all topics here, but in today's culture of sensationalism and anybody-can-make-a-website and put anything they want on that site, skeptical analysis is our only recourse. That is the source of my skepticism.


As for the site being run like a business... yes. The hope is that, through better, more structured management of everything from debates to technology, growth can be managed. After the debate tournament finishes, DragonRider is the Czar of Debate and Fiction. Anyone, with any topic can approach and ask for a debate. If you like, you and I can debate on advertising. (I'm not sure about my time availability though)

And yes, perhaps one day Simon (and I) can experience a level of positive cash flow from site operations. As it is, today, I'm fortunate enough to be able to pay for a dedicated server that hosts ATS. Simon makes some amount of income from the ads on the main site, and I haven't asked for any of it. I've had three advertisers approach me to advertise on the discussion board, and I've turned down all three. While our traffic and diverse membership is becoming attractive to some advertisers, I have some strict guidelines on what kind of advertising should occur on communities. (another time, another thread maybe) There is one possibility, a video game publisher... it could be fun and add to the community if they come through.

But yes, the community is first, foremost, and always important. If the community thrives, all else follows.

Oh... and yes, I've noticed the confusion about who's site this is as well. I've been discussing that misconception with senior staff, and working out ways to make it more clear and fade back a step or two.

I just have one thing to say "Censorship"


I came to ATS and stood my ground, gained respect and many friends. Now, the ground has been pulled from under me.

That was more than one may get from many- soon to be, big time Orgs. $$

I have been having this odd feeling that this forum has lost some of its old feeling. I don't think that the new look and new features are changing this place. There is just something different. I have been trying to figure out what I am missing from this place....

As for how the moderators have been acting lately, I feel that they have been acting just as "code" enforcers- and within their limits. Their actions were brought to us by people with some maturity problems. Then at the same time, people are finding people are getting banned from here. Maybe it's a different level of tolerance or we just know about it.

That may be what has given us a different feel here. People are starting to fight here (and as you can see, it's over warnings, banning, and just how the site is changing). That's why I made my topic on "I remember when there were mostly cool people here". I wasn't sure why I made it. I think it was because this place felt almost alien to me (no pun intended). Not because of the look and features, but the people. Yet, I'm still not sure what it is exactly seems different.

I never got to watch the forums start to slip in whatever way it may have. I left the forums for a while and did over things. After half a year past, I said I needed to come back to ATS (and for a longer time than before). I came back and everyone that I respected, looked up to, and had made friends with were gone. I wondered where they went and for what. Jtal, MidnightDStroyer, and even Simon were not there anymore (there are more).

When I came back I was welcomed back by someone I had briefly encountered before I left: OzChris. Later on I thanked him for the welcome in the chat room. After some time, we started talking about the subject of disappearing members. Turned out they all had left about when I did too. Still, I have no clue why they might have left...

With the changing attitudes on the forums, I noticed there was a new person who had arrived: William.
I had never met him before on the forums. Through time I found out he was the new Administrator at ATS. I wondered if he was the person making the people here more hostile. This I still wonder and am now starting to believe.

Whether or not it is William, I will not know until I see how he handles this situation.

As for Kowalski, I'm now starting to wonder if we should have banned him (after all, he kept his bull in the introductions area). But William, I felt, did quite an immature thing: He banned Kowalski then announced it to everyone (almost as if he thought it was something to be proud of). Banning is something you shouldn't be proud of, even if it was justified. Back when I remember an ATS that didn't have people in each other's faces (all but the religious topics ), we didn't know about people getting banned as much.

There you have it. My concerns and experiences. Sorry about its length.

(4/\/\/\/\0 |)|_||)3

Originally posted by Ycon
I just have one thing to say "Censorship"


I came to ATS and stood my ground, gained respect and many friends. Now, the ground has been pulled from under me.

Ycon, could you explain for us? Maybe it can explain what has turned this place so alien to me (again, no pun intended).

I also sent William 3 u2u's he never ever replied why?

Were you drunk again drunk?

Are you sure you pushed the right buttons in your catatonic state?

I am constantly amazed by how you manage to type "William".

Oh, good to see you, by the way. Imagine William being swamped with U2U's, and still getting through a pile of them.

Glad that will never ever happen to me. Heh heh.

[Edited on 10-7-2003 by MaskedAvatar]

Nowt wrong with my spelling of William.

Yes, that is the subject of my amazement, that you can get out a 2.5 syllable name correctly in your catatonic state...

Ah ha i see but i am not drunk today not yet anyway.

Let's not let this topic go to waste over Drunk's spelling. If needed I would talk about this in another topic. (If you would really want to. )

Look nothing wrong with my spelling.

But I was paying drunk a compliment about his ability to spell while drunk, and hearing him talk about unresponded-to U2Us to administrators, which become more of a challenge with a membership base of 10,000 than they are with 2,000...

Cam, I shouldn't of said what I did. I am totally restricted on defending myself and my beliefs. Any little (##thing##) that I say or do, may mean a permanent ban for me.







[Edited on 10-7-2003 by Ycon]

[Edited on 10-7-2003 by Ycon]

We don't need to these extra comments either. This is a topic over what could happen to this site. So could you please cut down the chatter. I would like to see what other people think.

Sorry for being so anal.

My first post on this topic is very relevant to what is being discussed.

I agree with you drunk.

What was CammoDude's position on censorship?

Originally posted by Ycon
Cam, I shouldn't of said what I did. I am totally restricted on defending myself and my beliefs. Any little thing that I say or do, may mean a permanent ban for me.

Well, I do want to hear what you have to say so just U2U me if you feel it isn't safe.

As for me, if I am banned for what I believe, I will not care. I would consider it worthy if I told the truth and was kicked out for it.