What if aliens aren't as technologically advanced as we think?

originally posted by: Nothin


And so why not also contemplate a species, that has thrived on something other than a carnivorous diet?
This is a 'What if' thread anyways, right?
Am cooking-up some ideas, inspired by member's suggestions in this thread.

Could be but evolution tends to go with what it needs, and cows eating grass doesn't need intelligence nor depth perception as example. Seems you need something long the lines of speed, strength, size, intelligence and humans kind of lack it all but intelligence compared to other animals.

And what if the aliens themselves are plant based what would the vegans do then??

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Nothin

Just imaging the idea of self-replicating probes, like you and Sapien82 mentioned, wandering the universe on a fool's errand, because the civ that sent them has long been extinct. Kinda sad in a way.

On a never ending mission to push back information to no one...this is what self replicating machines could do, no faster than light needed, just time.

There is also possibilities of vastly more advanced civs than us, exploring in ways that we can't even contemplate, anymore than a cow is able to contemplate how it's hide might end-up as a Clayton Kershaw four-seamer fastball, and all of the implications of the pitch, and the game-situation, player histories, etc...

Has anyone ever thought that machines might be the final stage in the evolutionary process of intelligent life?

Just eons, of: 'Is there anybody home'?

Don't have any particular links, but have seen that idea posited before.

An idea that was a bit more intriguing, was on the concept of how Humanity will continue to meld with technology, until we eventually become Human 2.0.
Faster. Stronger. Smarter. Huge memories. Healthier. etc...

Ray Kurzweil is not a popular figure here on ATS, mostly because of his working for Google now.
But it's hard not to see that he is a visionary genius.

Perhaps the machines will be partly us, and we will be partly machine?
Imagine having an infallible, perfect memory?

Aliens don't exist, so the question is moot.

I want to see evidence of things, before I believe it's true, so why so many people seem convinced aliens are really true....is beyond all logical explanations...

I thought aliens were true, also, because I thought the universe was really endless space, all around a ball-shaped Earth, which spins 1000+ mph, and so on...

In that framework, why wouldn't aliens exist somewhere?

But it's not true, it's a huge lie..


Nobody mentioned aliens for thousands of years, so why would they all visit Earth only a century ago, and worse, why would so many different aliens suddenly start to visit Earth, at the very same time?? Not a chance. Unless the 'Alien Travel Agency' was formed, and started to book flights to Earth, and word of this unsoiled planet spread all over the vast universe, like wildfire!!

I would suggest if any of these aliens were real, they'd have gone to Earth many thousands of years already, and not just within the last 50+ years, where aliens pop out the ying-yang!

There once was a time when nobody had ever heard of an 'alien'. Why didn't anyone know about aliens back then? Why didn't anyone know about aliens for thousands of years before that? If they really saw aliens before, they'd have written about them, talked about it, found that other people saw aliens, as well.

It's nonsense to say aliens were actually here all along, but nobody referred to them as aliens, they saw them as gods, or supreme beings from the heavens, etc. They spoke about aliens as gods, back then.....


If that was true, you'd have found writings in early America, and in Europe, and many other places, too. Because in early America, for example, they didn't go around claiming to see 'gods', or any sort of 'supreme beings' visiting the Earth. Which alone rules out the 'gods' argument.

This excuse is always linked to stories of ancient 'gods' that appeared from the heavens, because it sounds like aliens have always visited Earth. That is how to sell their alien story, as real. See how they wrote about aliens back then, as 'gods'?

They interpret anything written of gods, back then, as alien visitors of the past. It doesn't work at all later on though, so they simply don't mention it, and nobody is ever the wiser!

If aliens visited Earth in ancient times, it would have continued afterwards, in every century, described as either a god, or a supreme being, or as aliens, or so on....

To claim aliens were described as gods by ancients works, even today. Please just ignore that they stopped writing about gods, since we can't claim 'aliens' were being written about anymore!

originally posted by: Xtrozero

Has anyone ever thought that machines might be the final stage in the evolutionary process of intelligent life?

Machines?People are thinking too small.If we are talking about a superior intelligence think of the beings allegedly encountered during NDEs.No thinking tin can will ever come close to that,if they are real of course and there is a good chance they are.

originally posted by: Tinel

Machines?People are thinking too small.If we are talking about a superior intelligence think of the beings allegedly encountered during NDEs.No thinking tin can will ever come close to that,if they are real of course and there is a good chance they are.

Thinking Tin Cans can pass life extremely fast in capabilities and intelligence.

Space travelers defeated by less advanced civilization which usurps their technology. Someone should write a story.

Oh. Wait.

www.baen.com...


Pournelle is hilarious.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Nothin


And so why not also contemplate a species, that has thrived on something other than a carnivorous diet?
This is a 'What if' thread anyways, right?
Am cooking-up some ideas, inspired by member's suggestions in this thread.

Could be but evolution tends to go with what it needs, and cows eating grass doesn't need intelligence nor depth perception as example. Seems you need something long the lines of speed, strength, size, intelligence and humans kind of lack it all but intelligence compared to other animals.

So: you believe in evolution?
After about 4 billion years: is evolution done?
Are all of the various branches of species that we are familiar with: done evolving?

Or will evolution continue for however long the conditions permit, or adapt beyond certain limiting conditions?

Can you not imagine multitudes of magnificent species, just pondering what could be existing, in a few billion years?

A South African UFO story: Beyond the light barrier. An interview with Elizabeth Klarer.

Sorry, won't embed.

www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: Nothin

So: you believe in evolution?
After about 4 billion years: is evolution done?
Are all of the various branches of species that we are familiar with: done evolving?

Or will evolution continue for however long the conditions permit, or adapt beyond certain limiting conditions?

Can you not imagine multitudes of magnificent species, just pondering what could be existing, in a few billion years?

Evolution creates species but it is also their demise. Species come and go all the time, life seems to be very robust that will happen as a common event when conditions are right. Species on the other hand are extremely fragile that takes very little, even small changes, to extinct them.

As I have said there has been trillions of lifeforms on earth with just one making it to the moon after over 4 billion years, not a good tract record for advance life such as we.

4 billion is a rather significant number too when you look at our universe that is roughly 9 billion years old when compared to as it is today to the gaseous state 14.5 billion years ago. So for almost half the universe life of where planets are common etc we get one species, humans.

I'm not saying that there are no others or have been no other lifeforms to enter space, but I see that as a extremely small number compared to what some people think is a Star Trek utopia universe. This is why I don't think aliens have visited us at all other than the chance they came here in the form of exploratory machines that are outside the influences of evolution.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Xtrozero
just like many humans have to switch their lifestyles to plant based diets in order to contribute to saving the planet from ecological disaster .

And it would take them 2 seconds to fall back into their carnivore roll if need be...Plus as we go full plant base would that not continue to de-evolve our brains?

In any case how many intelligent carnivorous species do you know ?
they arent super intelligent like humans , Id be willing to bet that the gorilla , the elephant is smarter than the top predator on earth , any animal which doesnt spend all of its time hunting will have time for other things ! like communication , group stuff !

chimps are our closest relative and almost as smart as us , but they are omnivorous frugivores , it looks like any hominid type of animal is omnivorous

the likelihood of aliens being true carnivores and being space fairing is unlikely as it seems intelligence favours the peaceful beings

Vast majority are meat eaters one way or another, but it is also brain ratio to body. For elephants and whales they actually have very small brains compared to their size with humans having the largest. So it comes down to how much energy is being pumped into the brain and large animals can have physically large brains due to the volume of the food they need to survive while their brain to body ratio is still very small. Whales have a brain about .02% of their mass, elephants are .1, but dauphins come in at 1.19% and humans a staggering 2.1%.

Apes are omnivores getting large amounts of energy from fruits, berries and bugs, with some actually eating meat at times except for the gorilla who is the lowest of the apes in intelligence and brain to body ratio with its mostly herbivorous diet.

intelligence favours the peaceful beings...

Are humans peaceful? That evil race that goes to a planet and rapes, plunders all natural resources and eats anything that moves is us...

a reply to: Xtrozero

well the majority of humans are peaceful beings , not all of us are sociopathic murderers or ignorant fools who follow blindly.


Humans arent carnivores !

eating plant based foods will not cause us to devolve , that's not how it works !

our consciousness is not likely a result of having lots of energy from food ,
I think the most likely answer for our consciousness comes from eating food , and specific types
that being psychedelic mushrooms and plants !


Ok but you arent comparing the intelligence of our omnivorous cousins and frugivores to the top predators in terms of intelligence
If you look at the most intelligent animal species the majority arent carnivores

these are the worlds top predators

8 Snow Leopard.
7 Saltwater Crocodile.
6 Golden Eagle.
5 Polar Bear.
4 Lion.
3 Great White Shark.
2 Tiger.
1 Killer Whale.

compare that list to the worlds most intelligent animals

Chimpanzee (omnivorous frugivore) only 2% of their yearly diet is other mammals
Dolphins (carnivores)
Elephants (herbivore)
African Grey Parrot (frugivorous)
Rat (omnivores)
Crow (omnivores)
Dog (omnivores)
Pigeons (herbvivore) with occasional insects
Pigs (omnivores)
Octopus (carnivore)
Goats (herbivore) although goats are known to eat nearly anything they can chew , but dont eat inedible items

it seems that intelligence is linked to omnivores and herbivores
however although the omnivores do occasionally eat meat , they normally eat plant material as meat is often hared to come by !

Apart from humans and dogs, bout our ancestors from pre history wouldnt have eaten meat all year round every day like we do now !

Meat was saved for harsh weather or when crops failed !

originally posted by: sapien82


well the majority of humans are peaceful beings , not all of us are sociopathic murderers or ignorant fools who follow blindly.

Really? From your narrow perspective? I'm not saying we are sociopaths or fools. We are an extremely dangerous animal, top of the food chain on this planet. Our peacefulness is only a thin veil of what we can and would become in the right conditions.
If the country got a EMP to wipeout our electrical all those vegetarians in LA would soon become cannibals...lol Or do you think people would just lay down and die?

Humans arent carnivores !

eating plant based foods will not cause us to devolve , that's not how it works !

Are you sure? Humans have had rapid brain growth throughout our evolution as hunter/gatherers until 35,000 years ago when our brains started to shrink. 35,000 years ago we developed crops that stabilized our food sources but also reduced our energy intake.

If you look at the most intelligent animal species the majority arent carnivores


compare that list to the worlds most intelligent animals

Chimpanzee (omnivorous frugivore) only 2% of their yearly diet is other mammals
Dolphins (carnivores)
Elephants (herbivore)
African Grey Parrot (frugivorous)
Rat (omnivores)
Crow (omnivores)
Dog (omnivores)
Pigeons (herbvivore) with occasional insects
Pigs (omnivores)
Octopus (carnivore)
Goats (herbivore) although goats are known to eat nearly anything they can chew , but dont eat inedible items

it seems that intelligence is linked to omnivores and herbivores
however although the omnivores do occasionally eat meat , they normally eat plant material as meat is often hared to come by !

Apart from humans and dogs, bout our ancestors from pre history wouldnt have eaten meat all year round every day like we do now !

I'm not saying 100% meat, I'm saying that intelligence needs a lot of energy and meat is one of those high energy sources most intelligent animals have in their diet. From your list one animal is a true grass like eater, the elephant, and they spend 90% of their life either eating or looking to food to eat. They also have an extreme small brain to size ratio, so I don't think they count outside that their size helps them to have a larger brain and smarts to a degree.

Meat was saved for harsh weather or when crops failed !

What they eat as hunter/gatherers before crops...lol

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Nothin

So: you believe in evolution?
After about 4 billion years: is evolution done?
Are all of the various branches of species that we are familiar with: done evolving?

Or will evolution continue for however long the conditions permit, or adapt beyond certain limiting conditions?

Can you not imagine multitudes of magnificent species, just pondering what could be existing, in a few billion years?

Evolution creates species but it is also their demise. Species come and go all the time, life seems to be very robust that will happen as a common event when conditions are right. Species on the other hand are extremely fragile that takes very little, even small changes, to extinct them.

As I have said there has been trillions of lifeforms on earth with just one making it to the moon after over 4 billion years, not a good tract record for advance life such as we.

4 billion is a rather significant number too when you look at our universe that is roughly 9 billion years old when compared to as it is today to the gaseous state 14.5 billion years ago. So for almost half the universe life of where planets are common etc we get one species, humans.

I'm not saying that there are no others or have been no other lifeforms to enter space, but I see that as a extremely small number compared to what some people think is a Star Trek utopia universe. This is why I don't think aliens have visited us at all other than the chance they came here in the form of exploratory machines that are outside the influences of evolution.

Oh yeah?
Well you're not the only one that can just make stuff up!

Imagine, if you will:
One, or several species, whom have evolved as life forms for 8 or 12 billion years, here on earth, or elsewhere.
All of the possibilities!
Humanoids with bio-engineered exo-suits, that make them stronger, quicker, healthier, and more protected.
A humanoid species, whom evolved cultivating empathy, love, and connectedness with the plants and critters of the area.

A mixed-type species, with the body strength, and sense of community first, like an ant, or a hornet; mixed with the higher intelligence of humans.

The possible variations just flood through like ideas, and it's hard to even take the time to write them down.

originally posted by: Nothin


Oh yeah?
Well you're not the only one that can just make stuff up!

Not sure what you suggest I'm making up. In earth's history man is the only creature to go to the moon. I think that is a fact, what do you think? That is one out of trillions of lifeforms evolved on earth, also a fact...Out of 4.5 billion years of earth's existence, also a fact...


I'm missing where you suggest I'm making stuff up.

Imagine, if you will:
One, or several species, whom have evolved as life forms for 8 or 12 billion years, here on earth, or elsewhere.
All of the possibilities!
Humanoids with bio-engineered exo-suits, that make them stronger, quicker, healthier, and more protected.
A humanoid species, whom evolved cultivating empathy, love, and connectedness with the plants and critters of the area.

A mixed-type species, with the body strength, and sense of community first, like an ant, or a hornet; mixed with the higher intelligence of humans.

The possible variations just flood through like ideas, and it's hard to even take the time to write them down.

We can what if all day... When we say life in general then yes life is out there and most likely common on planets that can sustain life. When we dictate what that lifewill be then the odds get higher that it isn't out there or its very rare. If I suggest a purple flying Hippo with 5 eyes, 6 legs, weighs 3000 pounds and with a 200 IQ, what do you think are the chances of finding that?

Saying intelligent space capable humanoid type species is basically the same thing...

Life can go in trillions of directions why humanoid type? Do you think that is some kind of universal model?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Nothin


Oh yeah?
Well you're not the only one that can just make stuff up!

Not sure what you suggest I'm making up. In earth's history man is the only creature to go to the moon. I think that is a fact, what do you think? That is one out of trillions of lifeforms evolved on earth, also a fact...Out of 4.5 billion years of earth's existence, also a fact...


I'm missing where you suggest I'm making stuff up.

Imagine, if you will:
One, or several species, whom have evolved as life forms for 8 or 12 billion years, here on earth, or elsewhere.
All of the possibilities!
Humanoids with bio-engineered exo-suits, that make them stronger, quicker, healthier, and more protected.
A humanoid species, whom evolved cultivating empathy, love, and connectedness with the plants and critters of the area.

A mixed-type species, with the body strength, and sense of community first, like an ant, or a hornet; mixed with the higher intelligence of humans.

The possible variations just flood through like ideas, and it's hard to even take the time to write them down.

We can what if all day... When we say life in general then yes life is out there and most likely common on planets that can sustain life. When we dictate what that lifewill be then the odds get higher that it isn't out there or its very rare. If I suggest a purple flying Hippo with 5 eyes, 6 legs, weighs 3000 pounds and with a 200 IQ, what do you think are the chances of finding that?

Saying intelligent space capable humanoid type species is basically the same thing...

Life can go in trillions of directions why humanoid type? Do you think that is some kind of universal model?

Nope. Don't personally believe that it's a 'fact', that humans are the only critter to have reached the moon.

This post: you used the largely agreed-upon age of the Earth as around 4.5 billion years old. That's fine.

But in the previous post:

4 billion is a rather significant number too when you look at our universe that is roughly 9 billion years old when compared to as it is today to the gaseous state 14.5 billion years ago.

You were using 4 billion, and it wasn't clear if you were referencing the age of Earth, or the supposed beginning of life on Earth.

Am not sure what you mean by the universe being 9, when it is now the new, and revised age of approx. 13.8 billion years old.
Don't worry though: scientists are making that stuff up as well. Why else would it change all of time?
Any monkey can point to a book, and say: "Look. They said it's 13.8 billion years old, so that's a fact!".

Was just using humanoids, because they seem to be a relatively successful and thriving, semi-intelligent species.
But them-thar purple flying hippos sound awesome!

originally posted by: Nothin

Nope. Don't personally believe that it's a 'fact', that humans are the only critter to have reached the moon.

The one interesting thing with the moon is nothing changes on it unless it is hit by an object, and if someone/thing was there before us in the last 4 billion years we would most likely see it even today, so it is safe to suggest we are the first, and in a billion years our mark will still be there with our landings for some other future species to discover.

This post: you used the largely agreed-upon age of the Earth as around 4.5 billion years old. That's fine.

But in the previous post:

4 billion is a rather significant number too when you look at our universe that is roughly 9 billion years old when compared to as it is today to the gaseous state 14.5 billion years ago.

You were using 4 billion, and it wasn't clear if you were referencing the age of Earth, or the supposed beginning of life on Earth.

It is a common understanding that life started about 500 million years after the earth formed, so yes 4 billion is about when the first forms of life appeared. I'm not ready to debate an actual point other than what is considered common understanding that life started very early in earth's history.

Am not sure what you mean by the universe being 9, when it is now the new, and revised age of approx. 13.8 billion years old.

So common understanding is the universe was made up of almost all of Hydrogen element 1, with some Helium element 2 at its start. Even today 75% of the universe is still Hydrogen, so in the first 5 billion years or so the universe was nothing more than massive suns that had very short periods before they went super nova, and within these massive super novas the other 90 natural elements were made. After all that massive growth in our elements things calmed down some around 9 billion years ago and suns formed much smaller with billions of years before they would go nova while solar systems were able to form from all that star dust of past massive super novas. At this point planets were able to come into existences circling a sun with billions of years of consistency for evolution to actually work.

As example of a sun life cycle... Our sun has about 10 billion years total, a sun half its size will go 20 billion years before it goes nova, a sun 10 times it size will only last a few million years before it goes super nova, a sun 10 more times might last a few 1000 years, so in our universe 's early days it was a much different place.

Then we need to think about evolution and for us that was about 600 million years since snowball earth pretty much wiped out all advance life, so I think it is safe to say that life takes a few 100 million years to grow into advance life of some kind.

Don't worry though: scientists are making that stuff up as well. Why else would it change all of time?
Any monkey can point to a book, and say: "Look. They said it's 13.8 billion years old, so that's a fact!".

Well in 2012 they got that down to 13.772 +- 50 million years, then in 2013 they refined it to 13.82... Not really monkey work. I'm not understanding your point here if we first said 14.5 billion then 14 billion then 13.82 as our tools, computers etc get better and better. The interesting point here is that the 13.82 is most likely extremely close.

Was just using humanoids, because they seem to be a relatively successful and thriving, semi-intelligent species.
But them-thar purple flying hippos sound awesome!

I guess my question is more inline with if evolution has a trillion directions to go what are the chances we would even see another homo type species out there?

a reply to: Xtrozero


It is not my narrow perspective , its just an observation of humanity , we have come this far already , if we were as bad as you allude then we'd have wiped ourselves out long ago , the fact is that the majority of humans are good moral people with a few vices History shows that good seems to triumph hence us being here today right!



we are no longer in the food chain, we do not compete with any other species for food nor are we prey!


ok so look at it in a survival aspect , eating meat is linked to heart disease , stroke and cancer
so how can a being pass on its genes if it dies earlier than a plant based diet ?

eating a plant based diet extends the life of a being in order to successfully find a mate thus ensuring the genes are passed on more successfully , they have a higher life expectancy .


Hunter gatherers ate berries , nuts and seeds, leafy plants , and ate meat stored for winter when they couldnt find any of the staple foods . Their food was seasonal and they followed herds of animals grazing eating the same foods they did , occasionally killing the weak or old to sustain themselves!

The Goat , The gorilla , the chimp and the elephant diet consists mainly of plants and fruit
with only a very tiny portion coming from animal protein!

as I've said , what seems more intelligent , simply walking up and eating the food everywhere , or spending all day chasing it without the guarantee of success ?

originally posted by: sapien82

It is not my narrow perspective , its just an observation of humanity , we have come this far already , if we were as bad as you allude then we'd have wiped ourselves out long ago , the fact is that the majority of humans are good moral people with a few vices History shows that good seems to triumph hence us being here today right!

Actually we are very tribal or pack animal oriented. If you went back to our caveman days and walked up to some they would most likely kill you and eat you. Its not a good or evil thing, its not like the good overcomes the bad. The strong survives and when you have limited resources we can get rather vicious in that survival. We also can kill and cause injury out of desire or pleasure and that is rare in the animal world, so what do you think gives us that trait? Maybe intelligence... Some very intelligent whales do the same it is suggested...

I really want you to understand I'm not suggesting we are all psychopaths ready to kill each other at first sight, but we are a very aggressive animal that puts us on the top of the food chain.

we are no longer in the food chain, we do not compete with any other species for food nor are we prey!

You are right, we now grow much of our food for slaughter. The largest populations of animals on this planet are food sources for us, but we are both hunter and prey in a 1000 different ways today as our natural instincts are still there. Sports, crime, business, sex, war, politics, activist, religion...to name a few where we are very much still hunter and prey.

ok so look at it in a survival aspect , eating meat is linked to heart disease , stroke and cancer
so how can a being pass on its genes if it dies earlier than a plant based diet ?

What do you mean? We are an animal with a natural life expediency of about 35 years. In the 80s that moved up to the 50s and today it is the 70s. At 7 billion people today and in 100 years 11 billion we are doing just fine.

eating a plant based diet extends the life of a being in order to successfully find a mate thus ensuring the genes are passed on more successfully , they have a higher life expectancy .

Puberty is about 12 to 13 years old... If you want to talk natural elements here, plenty of time to pass on gene in a evolutionary way.

Hunter gatherers ate berries , nuts and seeds, leafy plants , and ate meat stored for winter when they couldn't find any of the staple foods . Their food was seasonal and they followed herds of animals grazing eating the same foods they did , occasionally killing the weak or old to sustain themselves!

Agree, except we ate meat all the time, even wiping out some species as we ate them into extinction. They were not called gatherers/hunters for a reason...lol Hunting was primary..

The Goat , The gorilla , the chimp and the elephant diet consists mainly of plants and fruit
with only a very tiny portion coming from animal protein!

And so the human, the biggest meateater of the ape world is the smartest, but huge amounts... Hmmm

as I've said , what seems more intelligent , simply walking up and eating the food everywhere , or spending all day chasing it without the guarantee of success ?

Good point but not in your favor. The dumb hunter dies off with little success in hunting, the smart hunter lives to pass on their genes... The cow lives or dies without the need for much brain power and so their brains never has a need or path for evolutionary development.

Maybe our civilization allows for a fake bubble world where we are all buddies, but that bubble can pop instantly. As example, if you threaten my life or my family I would have no issues with taking you out first, but in any other situation we can sit down and drink beer together in good company.

Many times in history we have great examples of this. Take Cambodia where the Khmer Rouge took over ruling a non-aggressive society and within the next 4 years that society killed 2 million people to the point of using school children to tortured people to death within the schools they once learned in.

a reply to: Nothin

well if we are to assign to phsyics and all it states about the universe , evolution will come to an end when all the stars die out and life that depends on light will cease to exist unless they make it past that energy gap !

even life itself is temporary in a universe which will eventually meet its entropy death!

So any advanced alien civilisation knowing this would seek to create a new universe using an atom smasher
and go into the infant universe where new stars can be born and seed life there !