What if aliens aren't as technologically advanced as we think?

a reply to: Nothin

we arent self replicating , we would be if we were able to produce offspring from parthenogenesis
that is a kind of self replication!

Anyway Von neumann probes are indeed self replicating probes which would be sent out by another species to perform a series of tasks! von neumann probes

The forgotten languages group have covered this subject extensively in their posts , however they recently changed their site so you can no longer look at blog posts (edit , this has since been updated and public can view old posts again)

Forgotten Languages - Von Neumann , DNA computers

check this paragraph , curiously enough , the paragraphs in English always have juicy details

"Curiously enough, any postbiological civilization will need DNA to build its DNA-based computers. This simply means they will need to find a cheap source of DNA, and maybe this is the reason why a future of AI superintelligences farming on carbon-based life forms is not so unlikely"

originally posted by: Nothin


Self-replicating machines, you say?
That is a compelling thought direction. Thanks!

The reason I suggest machines is because that is one thing that presents the possibility to not be affected by time and also not be affected as life can be by speed, distance, possible interstellar travel etc too. Life will happen, very hard to stop it, but species come and go with most surviving in a very fragile state for rather short periods of time. Humans were much different even 300k years ago at the start of H. sapiens and travel in the universe looks to be extremely time intensive unless there is other types of travel outside of space/time and even that looks to be something that life in general could find as a huge barrier to still stay alive or even stay within some time range as space/time plays with life not in a good way.

Machines can self replicate the same pattern over and over for billions of years with the ability to evolve at their own will with time not being a factor. So we could have machines traveling the universe for billions of years on exploratory missions for a race that has been long.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
It will happen under the conditions that cause it to happen, but since as far as we know life is still an impossibility there are no known right conditions.

I'm not following you...conditions cause chemical reactions, chemical reactions evolve to a point we call it life, so yes I agree there is not a god spark of life as the process before life and after life has started is still chemical reactions of some kind, the reason we can not figure out the spark of life is because the term life is only a human construct that we created out of thin air to describe a complicated group of chemical reactions, and not anything the universe does in some magical way. Case and point a lite match or a star can be seen as life too...

originally posted by: openminded2011
a reply to: Gothmog



I think it goes like this:


Planets that can support life: rare.

Planets that can support life where life has arisen: very rare.

Planets that can support life where complex life has arisen: Extremely rare.


Planets where complex life has arisen resulting in intelligent life: Almost nonexistent


Planets where complex life has arisen resulting in intelligent life that has advanced technologically enough to communicate with us or have interstellar travel: VERY VERY VERY rare.


So extrapolate that throughout the cosmos, and you might only have one or two civilizations in a given galaxy existing at the same time, and separated by thousands of light years.


Because of this I doubt we will ever meet aliens. If some beings are coming here to me its much more likely they are interdimensional, possibly coming from some alternate universe.

I think it is more like this...

Planets that can support any life and life forms... Somewhat common

Planets supporting complex life of some kind... rare

Planets where complex life has arisen resulting in intelligent life: Uncommon but not rare once a planet reaches the complex life stage. Once a planet is at the point of complex life in the form of carnivores and plant eaters intelligence seems to be a common factor with carnivores/omnivores.

Planets where complex life has arisen resulting in intelligent life that has advanced technologically enough to communicate with us or have interstellar travel: Well with trillions of lifeforms on earth over its 4.5 billion years only one species has gone to the moon. We need to think that not only is intelligence needed but physical ability is also needed such as our opposable thumbs and many other physical traits. We also need the desire to travel and we need a very constant environment to let technology to build. One good hit and humans as they are today can be sent back to the stone age as example.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
It will happen under the conditions that cause it to happen, but since as far as we know life is still an impossibility there are no known right conditions.

I'm not following you...conditions cause chemical reactions, chemical reactions evolve to a point we call it life

Oh ok show me the proven scientific process that has been verified to result in life. I'll wait.

You can show me the process by which only left handed amino acids naturally form.

originally posted by: Nothin

Imaging a beautiful, sensitive, and gentle alien species: and their only contact with us, is our arsehole schlitzhead politicians: sad...

I have big concerns on whether aliens are here at all when we go down the whole Government cover up path...Outside of a singularity event of a crash I don't see aliens working with some human construct like Government, if they were here we would all know it in a District 9 kind of way.

Hawlking has suggested we might not want to meet an advance alien race since intelligence tends to run as a carnivore trait more than a plant eater. Not only do plant eaters not need to chase down their food, but planets in general do not give the energy needed for the evolution of intelligence.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

Oh ok show me the proven scientific process that has been verified to result in life. I'll wait.

You can show me the process by which only left handed amino acids naturally form.

Show me what makes you alive? Show me something in you that is a magical life spark that isn't at some point a chemical reaction.

Earth was vastly difference 4 billion years ago and yet what we call life formed. I'll go with the gene first theory since that follows other traits such as crystals.

You want me to tell you how life is made when the term life isn't anything other than an abstract thought we created, so I guess my answer is there is actually no such thing as life in the universe.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Sorry, no obfuscation. You said it happens by natural processes. I asked what those are. If you can't provide said process then do not state it as fact, it's fine to have as an opinion though.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

Sorry, no obfuscation. You said it happens by natural processes. I asked what those are. If you can't provide said process then do not state it as fact, it's fine to have as an opinion though.

Is there a different process to pick from? 4 billion years ago was there anything other than a natural process. Was there a possibility of an unnatural chemical reactions that started the process? Seems you picked up on a word that really had little meaning other than to say that chemical reactions happen all the time and are a natural event in our universe with some of those are reactions we happen to call life.

The fact is chemical reactions is what we call life and at some point in early earth's history the environment was correct for these chemical reactions to happen at the simplest level. So I'm confused as to what you suggest is not correct or what I need to provide empirical data to prove.

Are you trying to debate the intelligent design theory...I'm just not understanding your side of the discussion...

a reply to: Xtrozero

I have no debate other than your claim natural processes result in the formation of life. There are no known natural processes that have that result.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

I have no debate other than your claim natural processes result in the formation of life. There are no known natural processes that have that result.

And so life as we call it is here and started shortly after the formation of earth, as I asked what process would there be if not natural? Are you asking me to provide physical proof of an abstract human thought?

OK...

a reply to: Xtrozero

I made no claim on how it happened therefore I need present no evidence to support any claim. I pointed out that your claim it will simply happen by natural processes is not a valid claim. If you want to say that is your belief, go right ahead, do not state it as a scientific fact.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04


I made no claim on how it happened therefore I need present no evidence to support any claim. I pointed out that your claim it will simply happen by natural processes is not a valid claim. If you want to say that is your belief, go right ahead, do not state it as a scientific fact.

Lol whatever... It happened right? Is there anything other than a natural process 4 billion years ago? You are hung up on the word natural even though that is the only method possible.

a reply to: Xtrozero

If you can't state how it happens don't state it happens. No point in going in circles with you, you already admitted you can't back up your statement.

One thing I've learned from reading books like 'Rare Earth', by Peter Ward and 'Alone in the Universe' by John Gribbin and watching the great video on YT 'How Far Can We Go' by Kurzgesagt, is that there are many, many more terms to any Drake Equation than we realized.

There are several 'great filters', one of the first ones being the creation of single-celled organisms, then a big one going to multi-celled creatures.

There's also not a very good understanding of things like the 'great quarantine' conditions, which might include outer space barriers of energy like the heliopause which might bar craft from easily going beyond it.

The truth is that we have to limit the possible scope to the local group, that bound by gravity since all other star systems are receding at greater and greater speeds. We have to differentiate between 'intelligent life' and life which can and desire to get off-planet. Then we have to consider that 'space faring' actually has to take a back seat to a civilization creating a back up world or two to protect against extinction events.

What is the benefit of real, live, in person space faring anyway? Exploration at great cost? I believe that the predominate type of 'exploration' would be sending out probes and then entering the returned data into a galactic virtual reality simulator so there would actually be little urge to 'go there'.

As someone said you also have to have a species with all the technological capabilities and also the urge, desire and aggression to go 'out there'.

A space faring species can't be too big or too small.

A space faring species we might encounter also can't be 'too strange' (xenophobia being a real thing!).

So given all that, two other important things. "Sheer numbers' do not equal high probability. And that evolution does not seem to select for intelligence (instead it selects for size, aggression and bigger teeth and claws).

I think if you really weigh all the options, read both of those books and view the video I mentioned, you'll find that we are a rare one-of-a-kind event in all of the local group. (forget about the whole Universe - it's a non-event, given the speed of expansion of space-time past the gravitationally locked worlds in a system's local group).

I think people who post about 'aliens coming here' have actually not deeply studied the question or defined what they mean.
FWIW

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04


If you can't state how it happens don't state it happens. No point in going in circles with you, you already admitted you can't back up your statement.

Lol what statement is that? You are full of crap to suggest that I need to back up a statement and so what statement is that? That life happens and is made up of natural chemical processes? What part do I need to prove, that life happens? Ok you are proof.. That chemical reactions 4 billion years ago were a natural process... If you need proof of that for some reason then as I said you are full of it.

a reply to: Xtrozero

however contrary the whole carnivore alien theory , maybe they too also through industrialisation damaged their home world and had also to switch to a plant based diet in order stop from wiping themselves out before they reached the technological age of galactic space flight.

Also many of the other forms of life on earth that are intelligent have a plant based diet
and two of the largest and most intelligent mammals the gorilla and the elephant are primarily plant eaters

also what sounds easier and more intelligent , having to spend all of your energy chasing food all day , or just walking up to it and eating it ?

anyway space travel and meat eating dont really go well together, where would you keep all the meat ?
its too bulky and heavy for space travel

any civilisation advanced enough would genetically alter their species in order to survive space if they planned to send their species outwards, but why send a living being when you could just send probes which do all the work for you!

I think our first contact will be from a probe which has been sent into our region of space , probably on a similar mission to find life surrounding a Gtype main sequence star.
It will be a form of artificial intelligence , like a von neumann probe , able to communicate over long distance and self replicate to complete many tasks and make new copies of itself and continually upgrade.

originally posted by: Maverick7

I think people who post about 'aliens coming here' have actually not deeply studied the question or defined what they mean.
FWIW

For some reason people assume life in general and intelligent spacefaring life are the same thing. To put it simply we can say that there is a rather common chance that life is throughout our universe, but when I add filters to what that life would be the odds are greatly increased. I could say I want a purple flying 5000 pound hippo with 5 eyes and 3 ears and to find that in the universe is close to impossible...Well to say as you suggest a intelligent, physically able, technologically capable, desiring alien to travel in space is basically doing the same thing as my hippo.

There is also another part of all this to allow for complex life to form and that is a consistent environment over a rather long period of time. Our moon provide the consistent environment and without it we would still see life on earth but at a much reduce level and simplify. We also have two huge vacuum cleaners called Jupiter and Saturn that has reduced the life reset button for earth to happen about once every 70 million years. With smaller planets that reset button would happen much more frequently to allow evolution to do its thing at the level we see on earth.

originally posted by: sapien82


however contrary the whole carnivore alien theory , maybe they too also through industrialisation damaged their home world and had also to switch to a plant based diet in order stop from wiping themselves out before they reached the technological age of galactic space flight.

Do you think eating plants after an evolution of being an carnivore will also change how their brain thinks?

Also many of the other forms of life on earth that are intelligent have a plant based diet
and two of the largest and most intelligent mammals the gorilla and the elephant are primarily plant eaters

How do you want to measure intelligence? Both gorillas and elephants have undersize brains for their bodies because they eat plants, so I could suggest they are not as smart they could have been if they were meat eaters.

also what sounds easier and more intelligent , having to spend all of your energy chasing food all day , or just walking up to it and eating it ?

How much intelligence does a cow need to eat grass?

anyway space travel and meat eating dont really go well together, where would you keep all the meat ?
its too bulky and heavy for space travel

Its not so much the meat as it is the energy the meat provides. The physical aspects of a brain falls into 4 areas: the number of neurons, brain density, cortex size and the amount of energy the body pumps into the brain. Though some whales can have more neurons and other mammals may have close to ours the human brain pretty much blows everyone out of the water in density, cortex size and energy devoted to the brain.

any civilisation advanced enough would genetically alter their species in order to survive space if they planned to send their species outwards, but why send a living being when you could just send probes which do all the work for you!

I agree, I think life travel in the universe is limited where machine travel is unlimited.

Imagine aliens arrived and they kept slaves.

A bit like the house-elf in Harry Potter.

The slaves must roll out the arrival carpet, and if one corner looks wrong they must be whipped to within an inch of their lives.

And there's the entire planet watching this arrival, and wondering, should we interfere, or is it their culture?