Beyond Bigelow & BAASS, After AATIP and on To the Stars...

a reply to: Willtell

Its a very good point, on the surface it seems that alot of the ufo mythos has come from "the birds" when according to JV diaries at least, it appears that many of them were looking for "the box" and were actually no more informed than the rest of us.

It also appears that people like Pandolphi were purposely giving some of them, Kit in particular, the run around and possibly still is.There is a rivalry there that I'd love to get my head around.

It is odd, the more you actually look into this subject, the less "alienz" you find, but in its place is a bunch of old guys who and not all, have had some serious weird jobs and hold odd beliefs.

It makes me wonder how much these weird interests / beliefs and "hobbies" have influenced ufology on the whole, even possibly created the whole narrative...!

Musing further, many of these old chaps aren't destined to be around for much longer either. Is their continual involvement a sign of wanting to complete a life's work?

Just thinking outloud

a reply to: pigsy2400

Absolutely, according to the Vallee diaries he did constantly speculate, at first with Puthoff and later Green too who if anyone has the secret sauce in the government. This is invaluable information, which of course, can get one wondering is it legitimate. Or is Vallee hiding something being so close to these inner government guys including John Alexander and Bigelow?

So according to Vallee, this was virtually a club of ufologist government associated people themselves mystified by the possibility there is a Wizard of OZ in the government, outside of themselves.

We do know that Green was given an order to monitor, outside his official CIA duties, on the side, the ufologists.


My theory on this is that Vallee was a CIA asset and his buddy Hynek was an Afosi or air force asset.


People downplay the NAVY, the OSI, which to many researchers is actually the most mysterious and powerful intelligence agency. We know they've recently put their two cents into this.


I'm sure among these many ufologists they have their agents....and the other IC groups, NASA, NRO, NSA, FBI, DIA, I'm sure all of them have their own assets. So this jigsaw puzzle is a challenging one to put into a clear picture.

I apologize if this has come up before but...

I was recently re-reading Martin Cannon's Essay "The Controllers" which makes a case that some or all of the alleged abduction cases are actually MK-ULTRA connected experiments using technology that affects the brain in some way. I found this secttion particularly interesting given the subjects of this thread and their strange ability to surface and resurface near all things UFO:

Now I want to turn to a case that I have been investigating for several months. The subject is an abductee. Standard abduction scenario. Twice regressed under hypnosis, the first time by a well-known abduction researcher, the second time by a psychologist with parapsychology connections.

In the course of many hours of listening to the subject, I discovered that she has had close personal contact over a long period of time with several individuals who have federal intelligence connections. She was hypnotized many years ago as part of a TV program devoted to hypnosis. Her abductions began shortly after she attended several long sessions at a laboratory where, ostensibly, she was being tested for ESP abilities. Two other people who were "tested" at this same laboratory have also had abductions. All three were told by the lab to join a local UFO group.

During her abductions, the principal alien spoke to the subject in the English language in a normal manner, not via telepathy. She recognized the voice, which was at one time that of her very close friend of yesteryear who was then and is now employed by the CIA. The other voice was that of an individual who works in Washington, has what I will call very strong federal connections as well as a finger in every ufological pie, and who just happened to bump into her at the aforementioned laboratory. He also anticipated, in the course of telephone conversations, her abductions. When the subject confronted him about this and the voice, he claimed to be psychic. (!)176

Source: The Controllers

I also found this interesting item about Cannon being harassed by members of the Aviary after he published:

MILAB researchers being forced out of ufology by shady characters brings us back to Martin Cannon. We were in touch with Martin by phone and by email just prior to his disappearance from ufology. It was apparent that he was suffering through a very difficult phase in his life after allegedly being threatened by Gordon Novel and another member of the “Strange Bird” club. We can attest to the fact that Martin was truly afraid for his life. He also explained that he had become disillusioned about having published his monograph The Controllers.

a reply to: coursecatalog

What's even more fascinating about the threat is that folk who know Cannon have confirmed that he was badly shaken and won't return to the subject. I believe George P. Hansen talks about that incident some.

Also are you familiar with similar accusations that came out later about the Villas-Boas "abduction?"

Besides the occult the other subject that keeps coming up in much of the activities surrounding some of the Aviary birdies is the probable continuation of projects associated with mk-ultra.

My memory may be faulty here, but I think it was Kit green who personally carried the initial funding from MK-ULTRA overseer Sidney Gottlieb to Puthoff and Targ for the remote viewing program. The remote viewer cadre were listed as "Human-Use Experimentation" and Charlie Rose (among others) even raised some concerns about that in the congressional record of the possible connection to the MK research.

a reply to: coursecatalog

We do know as fact that MK-ULTRA experiments sought to create the dissociative state in folk so as to "hide" secrets in them. Equivalents of a "screen memory." That's not debatable, it's history.

So starting from that fact, the Villas-Boas case becomes interesting, as regards this theme, and maybe even more clear, when we look at the story as told by Bosco Nedelcovic.

The Villas Boas case is one said to be instigated by a CIA/military psy-operation, according to DoD/CIA operative Bosco Nedelcovic, who told me the story in the late 1970s. Nick Redfern covers the account in his book Contactees [Chapter 20].

Nedelcovic presented a scenario that’s hard to accept by some but readily accepted by those who’ve studied the machinations of the CIA and military the so-called psychological operations.

Villas Boas was, Nedelcovic said, collected by a special unit whose purpose was to create simulated alien contact. The unit operated in South America, with the help of A.I.D. and also in Great Britain, where Nedelcovic said they were part of the infamous Scoriton contact with a man named Bryant.

ufocon.blogspot.com...

Villas-Boas Tryst ~ Courtesy of the U.S.A.?

The excellent Jack Brewer has also written on Cannon and Alexander. And, oh, there's Gordon Novel again:

I was disappointed Colonel Alexander did not provide me an opportunity to discuss Martin Cannon with him. I would very much like to hear his current thoughts on Cannon-related events.

Cannon published The Controllers: A New Hypothesis of Alien Abduction, circa 1990, in which he explored the possibility some reported abductions might actually be the results of Manchurian Candidate type covert research projects such as MKULTRA. While it is readily apparent the colonel would publicly assign no more value to such a publication than to use it as kindling to light the coals of the grill on which to hoist Martin, I am more interested in how Alexander might comment on his relationship with Cannon than what he would obviously say about the man's work.

For example... Alexander's wife, Victoria, reportedly telephoned Cannon in 1993. She allegedly informed Cannon that Alexander and Hal Puthoff were very angry at Cannon, for whatever reasons, and that Gordon Novel had been called on to handle the situation, whatever the situation and details of its handling specifically may have been considered to be.

Col. John B. Alexander, Gordon Novel, and Victoria Lacas-Alexander

Writer/researcher George P. Hansen explained he personally heard the recording left by Alexander's wife on Cannon's answering machine. Hansen wrote:

Alexander has spent some time with Novel and has flaunted the affiliation, perhaps in an attempt to intimidate others. Martin Cannon, an investigator who has written on government mind-control projects, received a call from Alexander’s wife on May 30, 1993.

She left a message on his answering machine saying: “Martin, as an ex-friend I have to warn you. John and Hal [Puthoff] are really pissed off at you. And they’ve given the matter over to Gordon [Novel] to handle. Watch out.” ...Cannon was well aware of Alexander’s interest in UFO abductions and of Novel’s background. He was quite alarmed, and the day he received the message, he called and played me the tape. I suggested that he alert a number of people in the media, and he also notified the FBI.

I would find it interesting to ask the colonel about the matter. Was he actually pissed? If so, why?

ufotrail.blogspot.com...

Did Martin Cannon--through his associations and close friendships--pick up on the reality of MILABS and subsequently write The Controllers?

Could the modern increase in alien abductions possibly have much to do with virus-like memes spread by MK-ULTRA-type shenanigans?

More on Villas-Boas as MILAB

And what about Betty & Barney Hill?

It seems that Betty and Barney Hill were at the centre of a web that involved USAF Intelligence and top military experts in psychological warfare. The evidence suggests that the Hills were the subjects – victims – of a psychological experiment. This may seem a tall claim, but the evidence that defence and intelligence agencies undertook such experiments – in other contexts – on unknowing and innocent subjects in the 1950s and 60s is now overwhelming. In particular, the exposure of the CIA's notorious MKULTRA project into various mind control techniques caused a major scandal in the 1970s…

…arranged for the Hills to be visited by top-level scientists, including C.D. Jackson, who had previously (definitely not coincidentally) worked on psychological warfare techniques for President Eisenhower. Stretching coincidence far beyond breaking point, Jackson already knew Major MacDonald, with whom he next interviewed the Hills.


Most importantly, it was Jackson who drew the Hills' attention to their missing time period; until he did so, the couple had not realised that their memories of that fateful night were incomplete. It was Jackson who suggested hypnotic regression as a means of unlocking it. It was Jackson who then arranged for one of the Army's top psychiatric experts to undertake the regression…

The Pied Pipers of the CIA

In the link to the following excerpt you can read Col. John B. Alexander's refutation of MILABS in its entirety (methinks he doth protesteth too much.) I certainly, however, encourage checking ALL sides of any narrative and making your own decision. I would point out the fairly apparent disregard for human rights and some obvious b.s. in the process, though.

The bolding in the following excerpt is mine and deals with a rather ludicrous statement that suggests most of the poor victims of MK-ULTRA were willing participants!

BULLCRAP! Even if it were true, and it's not, it would only demonstrate how thoroughly misled and mistreated the poor victims were.

The rest of the "apologist" nature of the statement also demonstrates, imo, just how stupidly unfeeling--sociopathic even-- these "superior" egoists can be:

…However, in each of the cases listed, a reason for the experiments could be made. In Tuskegee doctors wanted to determine how syphilis would progress if left untreated. Most, but not all, participants in MKULTRA were volunteers who signed statements to that effect.

Forgotten in the clamor over those experiments is the grave concern that had been generated by our POWs, who showed signs of "brain washing," when they returned from North Korean camps. The radiation experiments also were conducted in a time of extreme anxiety about the effects of exposure and were based on the concerns for our very national survival. I am not making excuses or apologies for these experiments. However, in each case, the designers conducted a risk-benefits analysis and chose to proceed...
www.whale.to...

"Most, but not all, participants in MKULTRA were volunteers who signed statements to that effect." Talk about a disconnect...

Rereading his article reminds me exactly of the same vociferous babble in his book where he denied any government project studying issues related to UFOs only to find out his boss and teammates had been running AATIP and it's predecessor for years.

a reply to: The GUT


On an tangential note, did you catch the B&B Hill episode of History's "Project Blue Book" (ep 9)? After the series' strong, delightfully cheesy start, it was gradually veering off the road, this episode being a struggle to reach the finishing line. Real PBB cases are a backbone to each episode despite outrageous levels of fictionalisation to serve the show's overall arc (which itself is as blurry and unfocused as a standard UFO photo). That wasn't a problem at first; it was FUN, even with Hynek's own story bearing 20% similarity to his real life journey - God knows what the Hynek estate make of it all, lol.

Barney, now christened "Thomas Mann" with his wife in tow (now a black woman; not sure they bothered to give her a name), is the only abductee, alone in his car, beamed into a UFO (rather than wandering into a landed craft), witness to a Star Map, and also given a bonus alien implant in his neck for good measure (or rather to serve the series' arc). So far, so so-so, but then a paranoid, rather psychotic Barney/Thomas is suddenly waving a gun around, taking Hynek and others hostage! If Barney hadn't died from a cerebral hemorrhage in the late-60s, this show would have had the same effect if he'd survived to watch it.

Fortunately, the series finale was a return to its early form, despite a very sexed-up version of the 1952 Washington flyover played out as a 1950s Hollywood "UFO panic" movie, with pilots chasing suspiciously "Tic-Tac"-shaped objects in broad daylight - almost as if the History Channel was priming viewers for 'Identified'.

What worries me is how many Young Guns will swallow PBB episodes as the Real Truth... or a new Pied Piper...

Sorry for the diversion. Normal service is now resumed...

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

Barney, now christened "Thomas Mann" with his wife in tow (now a black woman; not sure they bothered to give her a name)

Ya know, watching it I thought it was really bizarre they did that?

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: ConfusedBrit

Barney, now christened "Thomas Mann" with his wife in tow (now a black woman; not sure they bothered to give her a name)

Ya know, watching it I thought it was really bizarre they did that?

Yeah, I wondered why. The episode takes place in 1952, nine years earlier than the actual incident, so perhaps mixed-race marriages were less prevalent in the New Hampshire of 1952? Dunno, I'm grabbing at straws, but perhaps we shouldn't analyse it too closely; maybe it doesn't even deserve the attention.

Overall, though, it might be my imagination but I get the distinct feeling that the series was indeed a sort of wacky UFO foundation for what TTSA would later bring to the History Channel - which also has a multi-episodic 'Skinwalker Ranch' documentary series on the way, courtesy of the 'Ancient Aliens' folks (which is arguably already a fly in THAT ointment).

a reply to: The GUT

What is even more disturbing to me is that in the second Sekret Machines novel there is a Doctor who has been experimenting on two of the characters like this since they were kids.

I guess it was okay because he gave them psychic powers and now they can fly the captured alien spaceship with their mind. Cool!

It's like the Church Committee never happened.

a reply to: beetee

Things are not looking good for TTSA:

a reply to: Willtell

And Kenneth Anger.

a reply to: celltypespecific

We shall have to see :-)

They could still recover from this, as they have done a few times now, by addressing the concerns of Greenewald and others. Maybe they have another ace up their sleeve?

What is strange, to me at least, is the mystery of why they didn't just tell the truth in the first place? Elizondo was involved with the project. Elizondo kept an eye on the project. Elizondo was aware of the project. But, no, they had to go all in and make him the head of the project

You can say many things about the CIA, but this level of ineptitude is not what one would immediately associate with them. Maybe standards have gone down across the board? Or maybe these players have other allegiances apart from the CIA?

Why has nobody asked the Air Force about these TicTacs and things flying around their coast?

And NORAD, who is supposed to be monitoring this airspace, were they unaware, one wonders?

Space Command, with their billions worth of assets, blind as a bat to the threat that has been threatening and menacing the american taxpayer for 60 years plus? Too busy playing cards to notice?

Curious how the Navy has to struggle with this alone.

EDIT: And well done for giving Greenewald some support. He sure deserves it after the way he has been treated. Well done, indeed, sir/madam :-) I tip my tinfoil hat to you :-D

a reply to: beetee

It seems strange that there isn't an innocuous email or letter. Like a request for leave or to book travel with Zondo confirmed as Director of AATIP on it. Even his possibly fake, maybe drafted, maybe real resignation/retirment letter only lists him as Director - National Programs Special Management Staff. Giving no indication that he worked on any AATIP project.


*click pic to enlarge

Note it also emphasises "...many accounts by the Navy and other services".

Of course then there is Knapp's strange tactic of not revealing Elizondo's name on the Harry Reid letter. It would have proven that he was copied in to communications about AATIP. But he chose (or was ordered) only to reveal it a year when debate arose about Lue's position. Even though it didn't confirm it anyway!!!

I suspect there are people actually batting for the same team while appearing as opponents in this social media dissection of TTSA. Not much of which is getting beyond what is loosely called the UFO community.

You look at the people on this team - especially Chris Mellon, Steve Justice and Jim Semivan - and the mind boggles how they could have bungled so many things along the way. It makes no sense. Any one of those guys could be running a billion dollar corporation right now.

A Friday night cable show that is 5th place in the ratings. Books that haven't even made a blip. Two years in and they can't get a forum or an app off the ground.

Are we to believe they have the full weight of the military industrial complex behind them and that Spielberg, Cameron, Netflix, Marvel, JK Rowling, Disney, George RR Martin, Stephen King, Drake, Beyoncé, Ariana Grande, U2, Tom Hanks, Tom Cruise, Oprah, George Lucas, Bill Gates and every living president refused to take their calls?

a reply to: mirageman

I have little doubt that the Skinwalker Ranch documentary, the Bob Lazar documentary, The Project Bluebook Drama series and Unidentified is part of the same push.

Plus, as you say, the impact outside the UFO community is negligible so far. People don't care, to put it bluntly.

At most, it recruits some new people into this community, and establishes some new people as authorities on the subject. Maybe that is the point. Some fresh people to manipulate?

But, on the whole, even that seems pointless, to me at least.

If you were to ask someone on the street, or in your family, what they think about Unidentified, most probably they would go:"What is that?"

What i find most peculiar in this whole delonge affair is that he has said openly these things are demons,mixed with some aliens etc. The whole delonge knapp interview back in 2017 is the story of the fallen angels in the bible.

And indeed if you study enough cases you start to see the paranormal intertwined with the ufo phenomenon(poltergeist phenomena etc) , or cases where witnesses stated something to the effect "i felt i was being watched" by the ufo and the context in most of those is that the ufo is referred as a living being.

Enter Knapp who has said some really interesting stuff about skinwalker alluding to paranormality etc and also John b alexander the colonel who loves to contradict himself who has said some interesting stuff


So my question is this,to go from little green men from mars to an 180 that they are something of a spiritual or of another reality right now,Why?Whats the endgame?

Wouldnt it benefit to pursue the nuts and bolts angle since most in ufology are in that lane?

For more vallee nids alexander etc check this c2c video,has some gems in it







some info on what you ll hear in above video are that davis and vallee while at nids found some patterns in the phenomenon,yes its physical(ground depressions) but also ethereal(ufos going into mountains) and the physiological effects on some abductees and witnesses(colares eg)

I have little doubt that the Skinwalker Ranch documentary, the Bob Lazar documentary, The Project Bluebook Drama series and Unidentified is part of the same push.

Plus, as you say, the impact outside the UFO community is negligible so far. People don't care, to put it bluntly.

Which might be the point. If this is disclosure, or part of it, they want to get to a place where you have serious people on live TV saying "UFOs are indeed real", and nobody panics.

If you're indoctrinating people to accept your version of the truth, that's how you do it. Constantly keeping the fire going slowly.