An 8-year-old migrant has died in U.S. custody on Christmas Day

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: projectvxn

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
So much hate in this thread...

...and attached to the usual suspects at that.
No room at the inn.

Care to point out where this "hate" is coming from? Or is this just another means to discredit someone disagreeing with you? Seems like considering who you're replying to.
"Enforce the law" = hate
Not falling for bull# propaganda = hate.
It's the favorite word of those who have no real arguments to make.

Children are dying in the custody of the US government. It should be held to account.

And yes, there are far too many hateful responses here. If you cannot recognise that fact, you might want to look within.

As to the primacy of enforcing the law, I will remind you that the rounding up and execution of Jews and others in Nazi Europe was fully legal. Sheltering them was a crime. Slavery was legal. Helping them to escape was a crime. Jim Crow was legal...need I go on?

So the next time someone in Montana or Maine get sick and illegally cross into Canada and die, you'll hold Canadian government responsible? That's so DERP DERP on your part. The only thing slavery, Jim Crow, and these immigrants have in common is that democrats were responsible for their deaths.

a reply to: soundguy

So kill the kids before they can die and force other countries to have laws that we consider more stable.

I have a better idea. Let them live in their own country with their own laws and keep them out of ours unless they go the proper route.

originally posted by: LSU2018
a reply to: soundguy
So kill the kids before they can die and force other countries to have laws that we consider more stable.
I have a better idea. Let them live in their own country with their own laws and keep them out of ours unless they go the proper route.

You don't see any American role in them leaving their countries in the first place? School of the Americas ring a bell? This is more a case of the chickens coming home to roost.

originally posted by: blueman12

Well, I agree... But I was reacting the initial reactions of those hardcore trump supporters... They wont even admit bad care was taken during the trump administration...e

I don't think people realize that it doesn't take much to overwhelm the system. We are getting very effective at apprehending illegals, but what do we do then? It is not a short process such as driving them to the Mexican border and say good luck next time, it is a long drawn out process. We can hardly take care of our homeless much less 1000s of illegals as a time in many cities.

As much as you might bash Trumpsters over this the left sees that there is some kind of unlimited supply of support and then they say, well you apprehended them you now owe them a perfect environment while keeping blinds eye that there are limits.

This is why it is best to keep them out in the first place...

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: LSU2018
a reply to: soundguy
So kill the kids before they can die and force other countries to have laws that we consider more stable.
I have a better idea. Let them live in their own country with their own laws and keep them out of ours unless they go the proper route.

You don't see any American role in them leaving their countries in the first place? School of the Americas ring a bell? This is more a case of the chickens coming home to roost.

They had plenty of liberals leading their march north, but they won't be called out. The media will spend all their time focusing on how mean Republicans are for not wanting illegals flooding our border. So this is karma on the South Americans for trying to come to our country illegally?

originally posted by: chr0naut
Firstly, for most of the caravan's journey, they weren't crossing any desert. It is only near the Texas border (where most of the 'caravaners' got rides on trucks or cars) or far away to the North East that there is desert. The whole "crossing the desert" bit is pure BS. Just like calling them illegals when they have not attempted to cross the border, is BS used to justify bigotry.

Neat story...sooooooo, where did I mention anything about deserts or illegals? I'll wait...











...oh, that's right, I didn't, so I don't care about your concern over deserts and the term "illegal immigrant" because your diatribe doesn't pertain to my comment. Go peddle that semantic garbage somewhere else--maybe to the person actually using those terms?

If you had the choice of staying in a situation where the lives of your children were threatened by gang violence and crime, which the government ignores, or saving them crossing some countryside (not desert) with your family (which, by the way, they actually crossed safely), I'd take the journey as a responsible parent.

First off, I've ran a half marathon ("only" 13.1 miles) and done many mud runs, including two Tough Mudders of about 12 miles each. If you really think that trekking from Guatemala to the U.S. border is just "some countryside," you are ignorant to reality.

With that said, gang violence and crime that is ignored by the government happens everyday in major metropolitan cities in the United States AND along the southern border with relative consistency, but you don't see these parents dangerously trekking across thousands of miles with their children in tow in order to hopefully find a better life with no guarantees that it is going to happen. Does that make those parents bad parents? Good parents? Or does it not matter because they're already in America, so they deserve less sympathy?

And even more to the point, these migrant parents, for the most part, don't appear to have done their due diligence in researching America's immigration laws and seem to have just taken "organizers'" words for what the end result would be. There are interviews and quotes of people stuck in Tijuana (not a great place to be stuck, btw) who are claiming that they were lied to about how easy it would be to get across the American border.

So, I know that you want to deflect the blame to America's immigration laws for all of the deaths, illness, and welfare issues arising amidst these migrants, but you do so at the peril of your credibility. You live nowhere within the United State's borders, and you appear to have a underwhelming understanding of what is going on.

originally posted by: LSU2018

originally posted by: Bloodworth
Parents should be charged.....

Liberals giving this false sense of hope are just as guilty.

Law and order would stop giving this false sense.

The organizers of these mobs are disgusting people.

Never seen such a sh*t show

Get ready. It's only gonna get worse as the presidential election grows closer.

You don't have to tell me. I got a few low life friends in high places who learned to keep quiet and go with the flow a long time ago.

They told me the deep state are getting very frustrated that trump is still around.

They spent a lot of time and money going by after trump and even asked favors at the FBI, IRS and media to help.

They are now at the point where they are working to directly hurt the stock market and economy so they can blame trump.

They are also talking about looking the other way when it comes to a terror attack.

It will satisfy them if trump has a large terror attack on his watch.

Things are about to get really bad the next 2 years and I was told to save money and resources

Liberals have no problem watching Americans suffer financially and through terror if its under trump

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Or does it not matter because they're already in America, so they deserve less sympathy?

I think you hit the nail on the head. America bad.

I also think that in itself is just an extension of 'rich dude bad.' We see that a lot today. The United States has spent 235 years working, scraping, scratching to make something out of what was once wilderness. The original settlers faced hardship and even death from the elements to try and build something here. And yes, they built something... a nation that is today a powerhouse of industry, technology, and military prowess.

In the process, some people got wealthy. Some didn't. Nothing new there; it's happened all across the globe since mankind first figured out how to stand upright. It might not be 'fair,' but life isn't fair. The one thing that was different from the other countries at the time, though, was that in the US, everyone had a chance.

Now we have a growing number of people who have grown up without the basic ideal the country was founded on: hard work and perseverance. I see it every day; getting ahead is just too hard and requires too much sacrifice. They want it all, they want it now, and how dare anyone tell them they have to work for it! Getting ahead should be easy. It would be, too, if it weren't for all those mean people that have all the money and nice things I want!

So, we have these people who, instead of working to get ahead, decide it's easier and faster to just make this big government give it to them. It's their human right to have everything they want! Of course, none of them will ever say that openly, because they know that others will oppose them, but as the numbers grow, so does the arrogance. Now we find ourselves at a point in time where anything that helps the US is bad, because the US only exists to serve their own selfish desires and nothing else. To hell with everyone else!

Oh, we've made our mistakes... attempted genocide of the natives, slavery, torture... and we've learned from those mistakes. So has every other civilized nation. It's not about past mistakes and never was... it's about gimme, gimme, gimme, and go away and leave me alone. It's about getting even because I want to have everything while giving up nothing. It's about somehow these people who have what I want had to have cheated some way. So when a child dies from parental neglect/abuse, or from disease, or from any other reason, it might not be the government's fault but it certainly is a reason to blame them.

Open the damn borders! Tax the rich! Give the money to me, me, me! I deserve it more than they do! Make the doctors heal me! Send those evil corporations packing! Dance when the stock market drops! Impeach a President for not agreeing with me! Damn the Constitution!

We have lost our way. May we someday find it again.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck



(sorry to make you click a response just for a beer, but nothing else needs added)

So, they took a sick child to the hospital. What exactly is wrong with that? The hospital released him, then he got sicker and they took him back to the hospital. What exactly should have been done differently?
a reply to: seattlerat

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: chr0naut

The beds are for the paying customers.

You lie.

I was just recently admitted to a hospital through the ER. I have no insurance, and no money to pay with. I was there for almost two weeks, during which time I was given excellent care, all the tests needed, and finally a quintuple bypass surgery. I was allowed plenty of recuperative time after the operation, and finally sent home with an appointment with the surgeon for two weeks later. At that appointment, the surgeon ran more tests and gave me excellent treatment. A few weeks later, i had yet another heart attack and spent a few more days in the hospital, including another heart cath. I am still under the care of a licensed cardiologist.

I told everyone when I went in both times, as well as several times while I was there, that I would likely be unable to pay. Yet, I received the same care as anyone else, and continue to receive the same level of care as anyone else.

You

LIE!

TheRedneck

So your particular experience is the same as everyone else's? Does one good experience somehow negate the bad ones?

Even considering the case of this 8 year old girl, do you think that perhaps a more expensive diagnostic or keeping her under observation for longer might have avoided her death? That seems the case to me, in fact, it is abundantly clear that this girl did not receive sufficient medical support to save her life but was sent home unwell. But of course, you survived so everyone must, right?

The third leading cause of death in America is medical error. Mightn't some of that be because patients are rushed out of medical care as fast as possible and damn the consequences (because time is money and diagnostics and floor space are expensive)?

Also, wouldn't your medical support have been covered under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), you know, the one that Trump is seeking to abolish? Does it cover the undocumented?

Prior to the ACA, in a Harvard study, it was estimated that there were 45,000 unnecessary deaths per year in America due only to patients being rejected because they were uninsured. Definitely Pelosi has argued before Congress that to simply abolish the ACA would lead to tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths.

Sure, Trump might reform the ACA, but the truth is that it took years for the current one to get passed. I doubt that Trump will do much better and also get agreement on his rewrite.

... and I was being a bit sarcastic as I come from a country that has had universal health care for decades (80 years?) and only about 35% of our population even have heath insurance (as compared to 91.2% in the US).

Health care in New Zealand From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who is being casual with the truth?

The repeated large font, bold, italic false accusation, that those who disagree with you are liars, might also alert you to the irrational basis of your opinion.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: chr0naut
Firstly, for most of the caravan's journey, they weren't crossing any desert. It is only near the Texas border (where most of the 'caravaners' got rides on trucks or cars) or far away to the North East that there is desert. The whole "crossing the desert" bit is pure BS. Just like calling them illegals when they have not attempted to cross the border, is BS used to justify bigotry.

Neat story...sooooooo, where did I mention anything about deserts or illegals? I'll wait...

...oh, that's right, I didn't, so I don't care about your concern over deserts and the term "illegal immigrant" because your diatribe doesn't pertain to my comment. Go peddle that semantic garbage somewhere else--maybe to the person actually using those terms?

If you had the choice of staying in a situation where the lives of your children were threatened by gang violence and crime, which the government ignores, or saving them crossing some countryside (not desert) with your family (which, by the way, they actually crossed safely), I'd take the journey as a responsible parent.

First off, I've ran a half marathon ("only" 13.1 miles) and done many mud runs, including two Tough Mudders of about 12 miles each.

Good for you!

I myself have run (and walked and shuffled) several long distance races, including some coast to coast runs (it's an island) and around Lake Taupo (158 km). I don't recall the lives of any competitors being imperiled by them, though.

If you really think that trekking from Guatemala to the U.S. border is just "some countryside," you are ignorant to reality.

With that said, gang violence and crime that is ignored by the government happens everyday in major metropolitan cities in the United States AND along the southern border with relative consistency, but you don't see these parents dangerously trekking across thousands of miles with their children in tow in order to hopefully find a better life with no guarantees that it is going to happen. Does that make those parents bad parents? Good parents? Or does it not matter because they're already in America, so they deserve less sympathy?

And even more to the point, these migrant parents, for the most part, don't appear to have done their due diligence in researching America's immigration laws and seem to have just taken "organizers'" words for what the end result would be. There are interviews and quotes of people stuck in Tijuana (not a great place to be stuck, btw) who are claiming that they were lied to about how easy it would be to get across the American border.

So, I know that you want to deflect the blame to America's immigration laws for all of the deaths, illness, and welfare issues arising amidst these migrants, but you do so at the peril of your credibility. You live nowhere within the United State's borders, and you appear to have a underwhelming understanding of what is going on.

So, the pioneers who went out across America in caravans (called wagon trains) were bad parents?

Were they running from a bad situation, or merely seeking a better life in the new frontier?

Obviously, they were disgusting parents to do that.

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: seattlerat

It is obscene that children are in custody in the first place.

Yup, they should be back home, south of the U.S. border, or where ever they came from.

originally posted by: Alien Abduct

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: seattlerat

It is obscene that children are in custody in the first place.

Yup, they should be back home, south of the U.S. border, or where ever they came from.

You are so correct, but only if the crime, gangs and enforced servitude, that caused them to flee in the first place, are removed.

Simply pushing them back to those situations is untenable.

This is why I come to ATS

To feel the love

All you dogs in the manger - you break my heart

Some more details on the child in the OP:

A Guatemalan boy who died on Christmas Eve while in United States custody was moved among at least four crowded facilities at the border over the six days from his apprehension until his death.

...

The boy, who had entered the United States with his father, was identified by Guatemalan authorities as Felipe Gomez Alonso.

...

Felipe was arrested with his father around 1 p.m. on Dec. 18, just three miles from the Paso Del Norte Port of Entry in El Paso. They were returned to the entry point late that afternoon.

Two days later, on Dec. 20, they were transported to the El Paso Border Patrol Station, where they showered and received food, juice and water. Because of crowding there, they were transported yet again, to a Border Patrol station in Alamogordo, N.M., around midnight on Saturday.

On Monday morning, an agent noticed that Felipe was coughing and that his eyes seemed “glossy.” About 30 minutes later, he was taken, with his father, to the Gerald Champion Regional Medical Center.

Hospital workers diagnosed Felipe with a cold and gave him Tylenol, but held him for observation after determining that he had a 103-degree fever. They released him with prescriptions for antibiotics and Ibuprofen that afternoon.

Felipe and his father were taken to a “temporary holding” facility, according to authorities, at a highway checkpoint, and border agents gave the child medication at about 5 p.m. Two hours later, he vomited, but his father declined medical assistance when Felipe appeared to be better. That account could not be corroborated by Felipe’s father.

Around 10 p.m. on Dec. 24, Felipe was lethargic and nauseated again, so agents took him again to the hospital. En route, he vomited and fainted. On arrival, hospital staff were unable to revive him, and declared him dead just before midnight. The authorities previously said that Felipe died early Tuesday.

The father and son, according to a spokeswoman for the Guatemalan foreign ministry, are from Nentón, a rural municipality near the Mexican border in Huehuetenango. The impoverished province sends more migrants than any other to the United States.

The family has asked for the boy’s body to be returned to Guatemala after an autopsy is performed, and the foreign ministry will ask for a formal investigation by the immigration authorities and the hospital. The foreign ministry has been in contact with the boy’s mother and a sister.

‘A Breaking Point’: Second Child’s Death Prompts New Procedures for Border Agency

Looking at the timeline of events as reported in the above excerpt, it almost seems as though Felipe may have been exposed to something that his immune system was not able to cope with during his transfer from one facility to another. It also seems as though his mother and at least one sibling are still in Guatemala and did not make the journey with the father and the boy.

Six days had elapsed from the time they were taken into custody and the time he died and a matter of hours from the first report of vomiting to his estimated time of death. Still no details on what he may have been ill with or what other complications he may have had.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Alien Abduct

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: seattlerat

It is obscene that children are in custody in the first place.

Yup, they should be back home, south of the U.S. border, or where ever they came from.

You are so correct, but only if the crime, gangs and enforced servitude, that caused them to flee in the first place, are removed.

Simply pushing them back to those situations is untenable.

o i c

So now you are mad that we aren't invading every country south of our border to nation build?

You are a piece of work.

a reply to: ketsuko

o i c

So now you are mad that we aren't invading every country south of our border to nation build?

You are a piece of work.

That isn't what he said. Why do you feel the need to put words in other people's mouths?

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

So, father brings son to exploit loophole and either intended to work and send money back or use chain migration to bring in lots of family later on.

On Christmas Day ... A child was born

On Christmas Day ... A child died


It’s blatant Propaganda, the left is now so radicalised and sick I really wouldn’t be surprised to hear in 15 years time how some sick leftist doctor murdered the child for the headline and seeding towards the Bible Belt Trump supporters

Nothing shocks me anymore and certainly worse things have been done by radicals and far left ideologies