An 8-year-old migrant has died in U.S. custody on Christmas Day

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: chr0naut

What an idiotic statement.


You think you're being altruistic and helpful with someone else's borders. It's unbelievable that you are ok with the US not screening anyone, not controlling our borders, not dealing with child sex trafficking.

Your message is "if you dont open your borders you are haters".

You have no vested interest in what we have to deal with. Until you do your opinion on this matter is just more bloviating from a leftist loon from overseas, nothing you say is valid at all.

It's easy to talk when the consequences of what you advocate for are thousands of miles from your border.

Your'e a migrant.

So, you or your family must have wanted to leave where you were, and go to the US, so you could live on welfare? - That is the argument that lots in this thread are repeating and it is bigoted BS.

Can you see that calling them illegals, when they aren't, and haven't even attempted to cross 'illegally' is a lie.

Not to mention that they have to be on US soil to claim asylum. By declaring those who come on to US soil to be automatically 'illegals', Trump is denying asylum to anyone who might seek it.

And Trump is closing off the other legal avenues for them to apply as well. He isn't dealing only with those who are genuinely illegal, he is blocking access to all immigrants.

Immigration policy of Donald Trump From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

An extra star for this one

Some people feel entitled. Apparently

Not that you need this, but in case anyone is interested in actual information:

What Is Asylum?

Asylum is a protection granted to foreign nationals already in the United States or at the border who meet the international law definition of a “refugee.” The United Nations 1951 Convention and 1967 Protocol define a refugee as a person who is unable or unwilling to return to his or her home country, and cannot obtain protection in that country, due to past persecution or a well-founded fear of being persecuted in the future “on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion.” Congress incorporated this definition into U.S. immigration law in the Refugee Act of 1980.

As a signatory to the 1967 Protocol, and through U.S. immigration law, the United States has legal obligations to provide protection to those who qualify as refugees. The Refugee Act established two paths to obtain refugee status—either from abroad as a resettled refugee or in the United States as an asylum seeker.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: chr0naut

Isn't that what normally happens in the US when you don't have medical insurance?

The hospital declares you healthy and sends you home to die.

I wish the ERs knew of this...

Funnily, that was precisely the topic of the TV show ER for stacks of episodes.

But in truth, the ER have to treat you, and then comes the bill.

However, as soon as you are no longer "emergency", you are either insured, or fabulously wealthy, or you are 'well'.

The beds are for the paying customers.

I second TheRedneck: This is simply not true. My daughter is at this moment in the hospital. She has no insurance and atm no income. She went to the ER, was admitted, had surgery, and is currently a patient. Not a paying customer, and she certainly isn't being sent home to die. In fact, they're planning to keep her an extra day just to be sure she's really ready to go home.

Out of curiosity. Are these two children the only children that have died while in US custody?

It seems obvious the children were sick before they arrived, their symptoms just were not obvious on arrival.

I just left a case were the victim was complaining of symptoms that did not match an assault that occurred just a little more than 24 hours ago. On assessment it was found that she had an infection that was at a stage were it had to be several days incubating and it is contagious.

She kept saying she felt fine before the assault, so it had to be the result of the assault, but that is not is not how infections work. The stress may have made the symptoms more noticeable, but it was present before the assault.

I am sure many people come through already sick, without showing symptoms. The government is not responsible for their sickness. Why are they just talking about these two?

a reply to: chr0naut

So now you assert that I, a simple redneck living in the backwoods of one of the poorest counties in one of the poorest states in America, with no major resources, media presence, or other claim to fame, is somehow the rare exception to healthcare in America? But you, who has no direct experience with life in the US knows all about it, even moreso than those of us who live here?

Earth to chr0naut; earth to chr0naut; come in please.

The third leading cause of death in America is medical error. Mightn't some of that be because patients are rushed out of medical care as fast as possible and damn the consequences (because time is money and diagnostics and floor space are expensive)?

Actually, the more likely cause is the discrepancy between good and poor medical care depending on which doctor or hospital one uses. A great deal of that is due to the ACA, because it places a lot of taxation and restrictions on patient care that tend to have unforeseen and undesirable consequences.

Instead of simply deciding that the hospital was at fault because of someone's political status, why not look into the actual diagnosis and the reputation of that hospital?

Also, wouldn't your medical support have been covered under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), you know, the one that Trump is seeking to abolish? Does it cover the undocumented?

No, the ACA does not cover me. If you took the time to actually listen to those of us who actually live here, you might know that. The ACA did not cover everyone, and it did not address a single healthcare issue, only health insurance.

You are apparently pretty good at reading... but also apparently very lousy at knowing what you are reading. I advise you (likely in vain) to step back from CNN and actually listen to the people who live here. You might learn something. More importantly, you might learn something that is true.

The repeated large font, bold, italic false accusation, that those who disagree with you are liars, might also alert you to the irrational basis of your opinion.

False my shiny redneck hiney.

Opinion, my shiny redneck hiney.

What I told you are facts, the lying pundits at CNN notwithstanding. Whether or not you believe an actual person living under the conditions you seem so interested in or someone on that boob tube with obvious political agendas that has never wanted for anything in their useless lives, is up to you. But know this, good sir: you lie, and I am living proof of it!

TheRedneck

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

That is my concern. I'd like to know what the boy died of. It could simply be something that his system was not prepared for, or it could be something new that none of us are prepared for, and which could also be contagious. Likely it is the former but the mere possibility of the latter should be a concern for everyone. In the early days of exploration of the New World, disease from early explorers literally wiped out the coastal native populations. Plymouth was literally founded on a cemetery that once had been a native village.

But I doubt there will be an autopsy, because it's more important to scream "Trump bad!"

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: chr0naut

So now you assert that I, a simple redneck

The rednecks had their genesis in the coal mining unions where striking coal miners wore a red bandanna, kerchief or scarf as a sign of solidarity. The definition was later extended to include Southerners who were pro-liberty, pro-forests, anti-racist and pro-labor (don't those things sound somewhat socialist?).

living in the backwoods of one of the poorest counties in one of the poorest states in America, with no major resources, media presence, or other claim to fame, is somehow the rare exception to healthcare in America?

Yeah, reckon you figured that out, there.

But you, who has no direct experience with life in the US knows all about it, even moreso than those of us who live here?

Earth to chr0naut; earth to chr0naut; come in please.

Don't fret, I'm not far from my keyboard, fully prepared in case someone says something wrong on the internet.



But really, the world knows what the US is doing. It broadcasts its stuff (especially its shortcomings) 24 by 7 on thousands of channels.

The third leading cause of death in America is medical error. Mightn't some of that be because patients are rushed out of medical care as fast as possible and damn the consequences (because time is money and diagnostics and floor space are expensive)?

Actually, the more likely cause is the discrepancy between good and poor medical care depending on which doctor or hospital one uses.

Why would it matter if the money wasn't a factor?

A great deal of that is due to the ACA, because it places a lot of taxation and restrictions on patient care that tend to have unforeseen and undesirable consequences.

Instead of simply deciding that the hospital was at fault because of someone's political status, why not look into the actual diagnosis and the reputation of that hospital?

Why not have universal healthcare and national standards where performance is assured?

Also, wouldn't your medical support have been covered under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), you know, the one that Trump is seeking to abolish? Does it cover the undocumented?

No, the ACA does not cover me. If you took the time to actually listen to those of us who actually live here, you might know that. The ACA did not cover everyone, and it did not address a single healthcare issue, only health insurance.

Then who pays the doctors, buys the drugs, provides the beds, the meals, the cleaning services, the equipment? If your government doesn't directly fund it, it has to come from somewhere, like insurance.

Perhaps it is those damned socialists gouging your taxation for health services, money which could be far better spent on the military.

You are apparently pretty good at reading... but also apparently very lousy at knowing what you are reading. I advise you (likely in vain) to step back from CNN and actually listen to the people who live here. You might learn something. More importantly, you might learn something that is true.

You might be surprised but people outside the US don't generally watch US News services like CNN and Fox. I know I don't.

Every time I have watched them I have been quite disappointed at how silly and opinion based the reportage is (they'll spend three seconds telling us about a war in Chechnya, or a famine in Mali, but two hours on the whiteness of the President's teeth, complete with wild guesses about his preferred brand of toothpaste).



Is Fox fake news, or just stupid news? - Quora



Despite my sarcasm, our standards of education are often quite high. Perhaps that is why many of the fabulously wealthy among you choose to send their children off to overseas schools, like Oxford and Cambridge in the UK.

The repeated large font, bold, italic false accusation, that those who disagree with you are liars, might also alert you to the irrational basis of your opinion.

False my shiny redneck hiney.

Opinion, my shiny redneck hiney.

A bit too much information there. We weren't actually discussing the reflection from your nether regions (although if it were comparable to the President's teeth, it would, of course, be national news).

What I told you are facts, the lying pundits at CNN notwithstanding. Whether or not you believe an actual person living under the conditions you seem so interested in or someone on that boob tube with obvious political agendas that has never wanted for anything in their useless lives, is up to you. But know this, good sir: you lie, and I am living proof of it!

TheRedneck

So, when you die (and that is inevitable) you will no longer be living proof, so I will be right. I'm patient.

a reply to: chr0naut

Dont forget about the millions under the brutal dictatorship of Kim Jung Un, those starving over in Haiti, being murdured and raped in South Africa, slaughtered and subdued in China, gang raped and murdered in Brazil.

What about the women being silenced and supressed in the Middle East, the people struggling in Venezuela?

What about those countries that have fragile economies and have either recently been through a civil war or are suffering from ongoing sectarian or ethnic conflicts such as Central African Republic, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Burundi, Liberia, Niger, Malawi, Mozambique, Guinea, Eritrea or Madagascar?

Why would you want to hold down one over the other? Is it just because one can make their way here from a trek across land but others have to stay just because they simply dont have the transportation?

Shouldnt we accommodate those that cannot afford transportation to make it fair to those that are suffering to an even worse degree than those coming from south of the U.S. border?

I mean if a good reason to be allowed to come in to the United States is because you are running from evil gangs then surly starvation, tyranny and genocide are reasons to liberate those suffering it by offering them transportation and citizenship?

Why stop there? Why dont we go over there to their #hole country with the massive abundant military might of the U.S. and mow down their supressors and offer them all freedom and the U.S. brand in their own land!

Womens suffrage in the Middle East! Democracy in Asia! Milk and honey in Africa!

a reply to: chr0naut

But really, the world knows what the US is doing. It broadcasts its stuff (especially its shortcomings) 24 by 7 on thousands of channels.

No, a select group of malcontents blasts their version of what's going on 24/7 on thousands of channels. People like you are just gullible enough to eat up the propaganda they are feeding you. That doesn't change what is.

Why not have universal healthcare and national standards where performance is assured?

Ask the Congress.

I was initially skeptical that such a plan was workable, but I, unlike you, actually listen when people speak. I am coming around to the idea that a national healthcare system would be a good thing. National health insurance, not so much when it is administered through forced payments to private, generally unregulated companies.

I know it's simpler and easier on the neurons to just accept that anything called "national healthcare" is equivalent to your ideal of "national healthcare," but it doesn't work like that. Again, you're chowing down on pure propaganda and ignoring truth all around you.

Despite my sarcasm, our standards of education are often quite high. Perhaps that is why many of the fabulously wealthy among you choose to send their children off to overseas schools, like Oxford and Cambridge in the UK.

By that reasoning, national healthcare must be a failure, since so many people come here for health services.

So, when you die (and that is inevitable) you will no longer be living proof, so I will be right. I'm patient.

And when you die (and that is inevitable as well) it will be proof that national healthcare doesn't work. OK, I'm good with that.

Actually, I'd say you living is proof our education system isn't doing so badly comparatively. I guess I win either way.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Alien Abduct

Why would you want to hold down one over the other?

He already answered that: because CNN said he should!

He really should move to North Korea. With such a plastic mentality, he would make a great subject for Kim Jong Un. He'd likely starve to death, but the state would love him.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: chr0naut

I myself have run (and walked and shuffled) several long distance races, including some coast to coast runs (it's an island) and around Lake Taupo (158 km). I don't recall the lives of any competitors being imperiled by them, though.

Good for you!

I myself wrote things to which you should have responded, but apparently you thought that I was trying to brag about my runs and felt a need to see whose was longer--you missed

So, the pioneers who went out across America in caravans (called wagon trains) were bad parents?

Were they running from a bad situation, or merely seeking a better life in the new frontier?

Obviously, they were disgusting parents to do that.

Jesus, man, you are a caricature of intelligent discourse, aren't you?

That's not the same thing--they were traversing across their own country, often with the promise of free land, with the blessing and urging of the government of said country (for the most part). Depending on the path taken and the risks taken, they were either good or bad--how about that Donner party, for instance?

But, I see what's happening here: You are unwilling to discuss the topic at hand and instead have to resort to red herrings and pointless talk about your lake runs.

If you want to discuss the meat of my comment and the points made, let me know, otherwise, I leave you with your own unintelligible musings and memories of playing Oregon Trail. Watch out for that dysentery.

So, again, I'll ask again and for the first time: When did I say anything about deserts or illegals or anything of the sort? Do you disagree that most of these migrant parents failed in understanding what would actually happen on the border? Do you believe that the organizers of these mass migrations purposefully misled these people for political reasons inside the US? Do you believe that the CBP is responsible for the deaths of these children?

Do you have anything intelligent to say at all?

originally posted by: chr0naut
You are so correct, but only if the crime, gangs and enforced servitude, that caused them to flee in the first place, are removed.

Simply pushing them back to those situations is untenable.

So, in your mind, who should do the removing? If those people want the structure of their country changed, should they see a revolution through fruition, or should they rely on other nations to do it for them?

Remember, other nations getting involved in regime change is generally never a good thing...

I am not having much luck finding out if the death of these two children is something new, or something that is being used to manipulate the masses again.

The search engines are so gutted with the same story that it took me over 20 pages just to find this one article from back in 2016 and it refers to 2009. This is a very busy time of year for our team, and trying work from this tiny, cheap mobile device is a nightmare.

US Deaths in Immigration Centers

It appears that we are being manipulated. While the death of any child is a cause for concern, and if it can be prevented, it should be, the greater crime here is the using of these deaths to manipulate the people.

It is also obvious to me that they don't really care about the children or anyone else. It is just another way to control us. We have to stop following the Pied Piper. We all know where that leads us.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Alien Abduct

Why would you want to hold down one over the other?

He already answered that: because CNN said he should!

He really should move to North Korea. With such a plastic mentality, he would make a great subject for Kim Jong Un. He'd likely starve to death, but the state would love him.

TheRedneck

Yup. And remember TheRedneck these are the same people that say that the U.S. shouldn't be going around getting into other countries business and acting like world police. Well we can sty the F*** out of their business by them staying the F*** out of our country!

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

This is my thought as well.

Death is tragic, but as long as you have things like this taking place, you are also going to have deaths.

The first child died due to dehydration. The worst part was that the "parent" she was with was not dehydrated at all or at least not enough to have also needed treatment. This makes me wonder if he was actually her parent or if he just grabbed her for a decoy. What kind of parent lets their child get that dehydrated?

The second one had something that knocked him down fast, but given the descriptions we've been given, it doesn't necessarily sound like anyone was being incompetent. Some things manifest like a simple cold and then blow up out of proportion very quickly. With no word on what it actually was, we have no way of knowing if the care was good or otherwise. Different things require different treatments.

But with no word on knowing what it was, the press can play the horrible treatment of the little migrant boy game all day.

a reply to: Alien Abduct

I'll give chr0naut more credence on this issue when New Zealand steps forward to open its borders to every single person in the world who wants to leave for better economic conditions no matter who they are and no matter where they come from anytime, anywhere.

Because, I know New Zealand, being an island, has and enforces rigorous standards on who it lets in including a progressive tax structure on people it never really wanted.

a reply to: ketsuko

They keep referring to them as child one and child two.

They may be the first and second child for the month of December 2018, I have severe doubts that they are the first two children to have died is US custody ever.

This is what to troubles me and makes me feel they are being used as tools for pushing an agenda.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: ketsuko

They keep referring to them as child one and child two.

They may be the first and second child for the month of December 2018, I have severe doubts that they are the first two children to have died is US custody ever.

This is what to troubles me and makes me feel they are being used as tools for pushing an agenda.

Calling them that also gives it the feeling of a body count like the Vietnam era body count. It's possible the names haven't been released too.

originally posted by: Alien Abduct
a reply to: chr0naut

Dont forget about the millions under the brutal dictatorship of Kim Jung Un, those starving over in Haiti, being murdured and raped in South Africa, slaughtered and subdued in China, gang raped and murdered in Brazil.

What about the women being silenced and supressed in the Middle East, the people struggling in Venezuela?

What about those countries that have fragile economies and have either recently been through a civil war or are suffering from ongoing sectarian or ethnic conflicts such as Central African Republic, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Burundi, Liberia, Niger, Malawi, Mozambique, Guinea, Eritrea or Madagascar?

Why would you want to hold down one over the other? Is it just because one can make their way here from a trek across land but others have to stay just because they simply dont have the transportation?

Shouldnt we accommodate those that cannot afford transportation to make it fair to those that are suffering to an even worse degree than those coming from south of the U.S. border?

I mean if a good reason to be allowed to come in to the United States is because you are running from evil gangs then surly starvation, tyranny and genocide are reasons to liberate those suffering it by offering them transportation and citizenship?

Why stop there? Why dont we go over there to their #hole country with the massive abundant military might of the U.S. and mow down their supressors and offer them all freedom and the U.S. brand in their own land!

Womens suffrage in the Middle East! Democracy in Asia! Milk and honey in Africa!

You gotta start somewhere... little steps...

... and simply attacking other sovereign nations would make the US the bad guys, and they have enough of that already.

Not to mention that despite their military might, there would be retaliation which would lead to unacceptable losses on the US side of things.

If the retaliation also wrecked your economy, that expensive military would wind down. Remember your civil war stories about kids dissolving uniforms in lye? Doesn't take much to negate military power if you are clever.

Also remember the 911 targets? Imagine 1,000 times that (lessons were learned).

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

From the article I linked in my previous post in this thread:

She said that until the two deaths, of the 8-year-old Guatemalan boy late on Dec. 24 and a 7-year-old Guatemalan girl earlier this month, it had been more than a decade since a child had died in custody at the border.

a reply to: ketsuko

It's possible the names haven't been released too.

From the same above-referenced article:

The boy, who had entered the United States with his father, was identified by Guatemalan authorities as Felipe Gomez Alonso. Nearly three weeks earlier, Jakelin Caal Maquin, also traveling with her father, died in Border Patrol custody.

From elsewhere:

The stepsister of Felipe Gomez Alonzo told the outlet that when Agustin Gomez heard “rumors” that the pair would be allowed to cross the border, he chose to take out a loan and attempt the perilous journey to secure a better life for his son. But after the pair was detained, Gomez Alonso quickly fell ill, complaining of a stomachache and something stuck in his throat. He was taken to a hospital, but died soon after. The Associated Press reports that Gomez is still detained, and that his family is grappling with the loss of Felipe, the disappearance of their father, and the debt he left behind. “My father is suffering because of the boy. We do not know what will happen,” the stepsister said. “We have nothing to live with. We do not have money.”

Father of Dead Guatemalan Boy Crossed the Border to Flee Poverty - Daily Beast

I personally think at least some of the responsibility might be on the heads of whomever started and spread the "rumors" of people being allowed into the country.

I wonder how the father was able to take out a loan on such pitiful earnings (reported as $6/day) and from whom such a loan would have been obtained?

a reply to: jadedANDcynical
Thank you for the information. Ten years is a long time under the best of situations. It makes it harder for me to believe that the CBP are responsible for the deaths of those children.

UPDATE

New Mexico’s Medical Investigator’s office said in a statement that nasal and lung swabs during an autopsy found Gomez had influenza B, but said “determining an accurate cause of death requires further evaluation.”

G uatemalan boy who died in U.S. custody had the flu: state officials - Reuters

The flu has an incubation period of 1-4 days with the average being 2. This means that the boy likely contracted the flu while he was in one of the various facilities in which he was kept.

It is still not determined if this is what caused his death, but it will certainly have complicated matters.