The Myth of Hell

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: SkeptiSchism

More paulianity... Lovely

Jesus didn't even mention adam...

And considering christians believe he is god... That says a lot

Paulianity is new to me. Whats this?

a reply to: Soulece

Read pauls letters

Compare them to the gospels...

Hopefully you will see it

Hell is a big problem with the bible. Yet the bible also says that god is a jealous and vengeful god. So the christian god punishing someone for eternity sounds right up his alley. It also sucks for the people who are born in remote places or before the times of of jesus, who never get to hear about the religion. They get to spend eternity in hell for not believing, even though the christian god never even gave them a chance to even learn about the bible. Good thing god choose America as his country and we citizens should be blessed by it!

originally posted by: trailblazzr420
Hell is a big problem with the bible. Yet the bible also says that god is a jealous and vengeful god. So the christian god punishing someone for eternity sounds right up his alley. It also sucks for the people who are born in remote places or before the times of of jesus, who never get to hear about the religion. They get to spend eternity in hell for not believing, even though the christian god never even gave them a chance to even learn about the bible. Good thing god choose America as his country and we citizens should be blessed by it!

I hope this is a meme. God did not choose America. Also if he is a jealous God, wasnt Satan also jealous? Many questions are sprung from the bible. Too many. In reality, zero absolutes. Belief is just belief. Belief is not fact. It is however, plausible everything in the Bible could be right. Just because I say theres a lot of stuff I could easily break apart when it comes to the belief, I have no right to say its a fact its all a lie.

a reply to: Soulece

Also if he is a jealous God, wasnt Satan also jealous?

yup... but satan isn't a god, hes an angel...

the OT god is a jealous god

makes ya wonder what hes jealous of

originally posted by: silo13

originally posted by: Ursushorribilis
a reply to: silo13

Before Christ there is no hell. Then our "savior" arrives and all the sudden we have an eternal Hellfire. Makes no sense at all.

Of course there was a 'hell' before Christ.

Read your old Testament.

Christ came to SAVE us from everlasting hell.

It's so beautiful it's hard to even grasp in it's simplicity.

Love the Lord your God. Put no other before Him. Believe in faith Christ is the Son of God who came here to save us.

And - you have everlasting life.

Pretty simple.

I don't know why people want to bung it all up with complications.

Nothing beautiful about it...it is perhaps as ugly as it gets though..offering salvation with a fear of eternal suffering.

And with zero proof of what is really going on...nothing is as it seems...total confusion will soon be replaced by truth.

By the way...read revelations and tell me why Jesus is so drastic with his truth...that he will destroy all.

Anti-Christ...the Shepherd of Death...and the lifegiver all rolled into one...and telling us WE have to be blamed for his own failures...it wont work...we shall overcome.

Noone needs accept a dam thing from that book...nice try though...but you already too late.

Grasp that TRUTH is coming of a variety you may not be able to handle...alot of truth.

a reply to: ParasuvO

Noone needs accept a dam thing from that book.

This...

is true... but not entirely wise...

There are many truths in that book... just gotta find the right books within the book

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: ParasuvO

Noone needs accept a dam thing from that book.

This...

is true... but not entirely wise...

There are many truths in that book... just gotta find the right books within the book

Pretty much spot on right here.

originally posted by: silo13

originally posted by: Slanter
a reply to: silo13

I really envy the religious in this way. You get to spend your whole life looking forward to thumbing your nose at the non-believers when you stand before the pearly gates and basking in the righteousness of your decision to dedicate your life to Jesus.

If i'm proven right I'll just cease existing, as will everyone else. Hard to go "neener neener" at somebody who doesn't exist as somebody who doesn't exist.

Well you're giving me attributes I don't have - spite for one - so you're already way off base.

I don't want ANYONE to go to hell - NO ONE. And neither does the Lord. That's why He's done everything possible (without removing free will) to give man a 'pass' if you like, to heaven.

It's not a hard thing to understand, but I will add, some people have hardened their hearts to the point where they're blinded to the truth. It's sad. Very sad.

You falsely believe we have free will...and the same varieties of it.

Face it...the hardened hearts are those who believe this charade must go on.

The biggest sadness is the lack of truth and just how weak everything has been made.

Your faith will not save you from us demanding the full truths of ALL OF CREATION.

Your simplistic views are not valid with those that have eyes to see...we CANNOT unsee and be blinded again...and we will move forwards and destroy this paradigm of blindness and that is ALL THERE IS TOO IT!

originally posted by: silo13
a reply to: EasternShadow

Who's repeatable observation?

Christian observation of the gospel, what Christ taught, would, in following of our teacher and savior - propel us from our hearts to do our best for others.

Then why do MOST Christians continue to sin? Some are even worst than those who don't even subscribe to any religion. How many cases have you heard a christian priest sexually abused children, committed scandalous activities behind the curtains and many other sins? Where is Jesus grace? Faith in Jesus does not cleanse your heart from greed, jealousy and selfish motivation.

'Naturally' we do what we want, what feeds us and what builds us up regardless of others.

It's only when we realize a 'better' way of life - because honestly leading a sinful life only bring us more pain - we change OR because we find Christ. The latter leads to salvation and everlasting life, the other? Doing 'right' by others because it seems to be cool at the time? Works. Works without Christ are as substantial as straw.

So does works without Mohammad or Krishna or Zeus and other holy figures. Anyone can claim the same things. What makes you think Christians are any different?

There are a number of belief systems that support being good and kind, but without the salvation of Christ? It means NOTHING.

If you do not believe in Muhammad as a prophet of god, it means NOTHING too. Like I said, any religions can claim the same thing christian do. Again, what make you think christian are different? Your faith certainly doesn't turn any man's heart into pure goodness.

Sin nature. Yep. And yes, you can control what you do, good or bad, yet doing 'good' when it goes against our 'sin nature' becomes a 'do-able' thing, with Christ's help.

Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah and others do not need Christ's help. They died before Jesus was born. They died without Christ salvation, but they too carried god's words and yet, I have not read anywhere in Bible that God condemn them to hell.

But 'good works' without salvation is a home built on sand that will wash away with no salvation.

So does good works without faith in Muhammad, Zeus, Apollo etc..Every preachers claims the same things, that their religion's way of life is the one and only truth. But REALLY?

Well first? Jesus' words and grace are known world wide more than any other words alive today.

Today is not the same as 2000 years ago. So how does Christ's salvation and grace actually works throughout humanity existence? Christian claim Jesus preexistence, then why didn't Jesus come to save Adam from the serpent? Why would god need to wait thousand of years for Christ to be born? Why not save the very first human that god has created?

Beyond that? Jesus is omnipresent, omniscience and omnipotent. He knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end.

Then he should also know that Israelites is not the only human on earth that require his salvation. Neither earth and Jews is the centre of universe. Our universe does not resolve around our tiny world. There are so much things going on, then to bother with one race or one man who do not even represent the entire earth population, let alone the entire universe.

originally posted by: EasternShadow

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: SkeptiSchism

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Soulece

EDIT: In fact, I present this challenge to anyone who says they are an intelligent religious person. Either you cannot explain it, accept the ideals may be wrong, or you find a way to send a good person to hell, in which is being anti christian. It's an arrogant win-win for me in this scenario. This is something I love presenting to people who believe they know the answers because of the bible saying so.

You know that there are other religions in the world that have a "Heaven" yet don't worship Jesus, right? In other words, your "arrogant win-win for me" scenario fails when applied to virtually any religion that isn't Christianity.

Well my question is for all these people in this thread saying if you dont believe in Christ you go to hell. So no, it does not fail. I'm well aware there are other religions in the world.

Well in reality you go to hell (separation from God) because of the law. Belief in Christ frees you from the law.

So a good person can go to hell. That is not God. Thats an asshole with pride issues. Hey, that sort of sounds like somebody else...

All Abrahamic religions are assholes with pride issue. It's not the deed that's matter. It's about conquest and control.

Not just the Abrahamic ones...but all of them have the same idea that things are all done for a purpose that we shall never know...and by God don't even bother asking.

Even ancient Hinduism loves to tell of the master student scenario...it is all the same...coverups of a failed reality.

originally posted by: trailblazzr420
Hell is a big problem with the bible. Yet the bible also says that god is a jealous and vengeful god. So the christian god punishing someone for eternity sounds right up his alley. It also sucks for the people who are born in remote places or before the times of of jesus, who never get to hear about the religion. They get to spend eternity in hell for not believing, even though the christian god never even gave them a chance to even learn about the bible. Good thing god choose America as his country and we citizens should be blessed by it!

The story of Jesus smacks of a being realizing he has failed in his creation and tries to create a dimensional tunnel so some can escape.

A god should never have to switch gears on the fly and try another way...and yet this is the claim.

Ahhh one day soon shall we know...it is high time a real heavy attempt to know all is undertaken.

For how can we REALLY KNOW unless we try?

a reply to: ParasuvO

The story of Jesus smacks of a being realizing he has failed in his creation

Did he ever claim to be the creator?

a reply to: Ursushorribilis

I agree we all end up in the same place.
Hell and the Devil are just the original bogey men used to scare folk into compliance.

a reply to: Soulece

If Hell exists then I wonder if there is a special place in hell for reserved for televangelists?

'And that is why god smote those heathens in Sodom for their sinful deeds, and-excuse me for a minute I need to sodomize this ten year old choir boy while not paying taxes.' Major churches all over the world are embroiled with molestation claims while at the same time enjoy tax exemption, that's billions of dollars a year. They claim the money goes back into the community, but still they come out on TV and say "with your support, we can-" BS. Is building another chapel or church going to feed a starving Sudanese orphan? can you eat or drink a cathedral?

If they are making a difference, why is poor little Mkembe still starving? I probably will go to hell and if I do i'm taking the hypocritical pious molesters with me, and my version of hell isn't pleasant-an eternity of having Fran Drescher laugh directly into your ear while having to watch endless re-reruns of Adam Sandler movies.

That would suck to spend a lot of time trying to do good and go to hell over a technicality.

Let's say you are an indigenous fellow living on an island.. you have done good most of your life, helped people in your tribe, but you have sinned now and then. Apparently you are going to hell regardless. Doesn't seem quite fair, does it. Supposedly everyone is supposed to try -really hard- to reach every person on the planet to make sure they know about Jesus, because only through him, can you get to heaven. But there are places where no modern society still goes. There is an island where no one is allowed to go.. and if you fly a helicopter close enough, the tribesmen will throw spear at it. Guess all those folks are screwed. Doesn't seem right.

Also if you commit a last sin.. but before you have a chance to ask forgiveness, a piano falls on your head. Is it hell for you? That doesn't seem fair either.

If it is real.. I think it is fuzzier than people intercept the bible.

a reply to: Ursushorribilis

I agree, and Act 2:31 & 32 helps to actually answer this question.
Here are some different translations

David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave.
32“God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this.

he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses.

Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.

And he saw and spoke before about the resurrection of The Messiah, that he would not be left in Sheol, neither would his body see corruption." 32 "God has raised up this Yeshua, and we are all his witnesses."

Grave, Sheol, Hades are all the same, and Jesus was there dead and non-existent if only for a few hours, God brought him back in a resurrection, you can't be resurrected if aren't actually dead. Also his actual death was required to pay the ransom.

Christendom has been teaching false dogma for centuries.

1) There is no "Hell" where people are alive and suffering, Job was alive and suffering more than anybody and he asked God if he could go to Sheol for relief, so he wanted death to relieve him of his pain and suffering. Jesus went there for a short time.
2) Jesus paid the ransom with the death of his soul, and God resurrected him which means they are not the same entity, which means not only is Hell a false doctrine so is the Trinity.

These are 2 great truths that all Christians need to accept to further their path to what this scripture says

John 4:24

God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

And the truth is there is no Hell the way Christendom taught it for millennia, it is the common grave of humanity, billions are in there sleeping as it were awaiting a resurrection from God in the future

John 5

Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out

Acts 24:15

And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous

As John & Acts says the bad people aren't in hell they are awaiting a resurrection too, of coarse once they get back they have to change from evil with standards set by God. If they don't they are done for a second time with permanent non-existence in the second death or in Gehenna as the bible speaks of.

a reply to: Soulece

I am not condemming. I am merely stating fact. If you send a good person to hell because they dont believe in Jesus, yet did nothing but good on this planet and helped others, that is contradicting. I dont make the facts, they make themselves.

I don't understand your bitterness. Is it not reasonable to understand that when a person dies and stands in judgment that the dead person will instantly realize that Jesus is real? It would take a pretty dumb person not to realize that here you are standing in judgment before the judge who is showing you all that you were while alive.

My question to you is - Why are you standing here in front of the judge? If you are already condemned for having doubts then why the trial? You were a pretty good guy while alive and you tried to be a good person then why are you standing here before a judge? So you look at Jesus and tell Him that you believe Him now but had doubts while alive, then what? Does that count as belief in Jesus? Everybody will sooner or later believe that Jesus is either real or not real.

Maybe we aren't looking at this the right way. Maybe that guy that didn't believe in Jesus drowned while saving a dog or even a child. Does that count for nothing simply because he wasn't taught to believe in Jesus? Well I have good news for everybody that really tries to be decent in this filthy world. Just maybe you will come out ahead of the preacher or priest or rabbi.

2 Corinthians_5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1Peter_1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Revelation_2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Now I don't know why people get all worked up and call God all sorts of foul names when it's their fault that they are the filthy people doing the filthy things. All God is doing is telling the people what is wrong and what is right. The guy that loves to beat his dog or his wife knows that it is not right. Every time we hide a sin we know that it is wrong because we hid it. A drunk or doper knows that it is wrong to abuse the body and mind so to make it right they cuss God for not agreeing with their filthy habits.

Now when we die and stand naked and ashamed or clothed and proud makes no difference to the judge. All of us are judged by what we do and what we think. The little guy that never heard of Jesus is judged by what he is and what he does. He may be really surprised when he sees Jesus and believes at that very instant that he sees Jesus. But he is still judged as to whether or not he can fit into the kingdom of the Creator.

Now the question is. What do we have to do to become a citizen of the New Jerusalem? Well, we can start with the above scriptures that tell us to watch our potty mouths and try to be good people. If we really try to do that then I believe God will be just in His judgments.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Soulece

I am not condemming. I am merely stating fact. If you send a good person to hell because they dont believe in Jesus, yet did nothing but good on this planet and helped others, that is contradicting. I dont make the facts, they make themselves.

I don't understand your bitterness. Is it not reasonable to understand that when a person dies and stands in judgment that the dead person will instantly realize that Jesus is real? It would take a pretty dumb person not to realize that here you are standing in judgment before the judge who is showing you all that you were while alive.

My question to you is - Why are you standing here in front of the judge? If you are already condemned for having doubts then why the trial? You were a pretty good guy while alive and you tried to be a good person then why are you standing here before a judge? So you look at Jesus and tell Him that you believe Him now but had doubts while alive, then what? Does that count as belief in Jesus? Everybody will sooner or later believe that Jesus is either real or not real.

Maybe we aren't looking at this the right way. Maybe that guy that didn't believe in Jesus drowned while saving a dog or even a child. Does that count for nothing simply because he wasn't taught to believe in Jesus? Well I have good news for everybody that really tries to be decent in this filthy world. Just maybe you will come out ahead of the preacher or priest or rabbi.

2 Corinthians_5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1Peter_1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Revelation_2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Now I don't know why people get all worked up and call God all sorts of foul names when it's their fault that they are the filthy people doing the filthy things. All God is doing is telling the people what is wrong and what is right. The guy that loves to beat his dog or his wife knows that it is not right. Every time we hide a sin we know that it is wrong because we hid it. A drunk or doper knows that it is wrong to abuse the body and mind so to make it right they cuss God for not agreeing with their filthy habits.

Now when we die and stand naked and ashamed or clothed and proud makes no difference to the judge. All of us are judged by what we do and what we think. The little guy that never heard of Jesus is judged by what he is and what he does. He may be really surprised when he sees Jesus and believes at that very instant that he sees Jesus. But he is still judged as to whether or not he can fit into the kingdom of the Creator.

Now the question is. What do we have to do to become a citizen of the New Jerusalem? Well, we can start with the above scriptures that tell us to watch our potty mouths and try to be good people. If we really try to do that then I believe God will be just in His judgments.

I don't understand your bias. You saying after you die you stand in front of God/Jesus naked is literally no different than any other religion saying their own philosophy. Also, it's unintelligent to send a good person to hell because they chose not to believe in a God. Thats forced doctrine. Almost Nazi like. Enjoy that one. No bitterness whatsoever

The only, I guess problem, I have, is that the moment you take a book, when theres more than one religion, and say your religion is right, and others are wrong, you show lack of intelligence to me. You saying how things are, is no different than any other religion. This is why I asked many friends who are religious what if God was proven not to exist what would they do? Well, they declared there was no point to life and they would kill themselves. Lack of mental fortitude. Now, I present you with the new challenge question: What if God were proven to not be real? What if?

originally posted by: Soulece
Choice as in if they accept Jesus, right? Well if that's what you meant, thats going full circle with what I've been discussing above. Did I misunderstand this?

Your jigsaw puzzle is missing one very important piece...

Just as darkness cannot exist in the presence of light, sin cannot exist in the presence of a holy God, He refuses to coexist with it.

Mankind's sin nature, as a result of the fall, is an unholy thing and nothing unholy can stand in the presence of a holy God.

Years ago Jesse Duplantis kept asking to see the Lord and when He finally did show up he was so paralyzed with fear he couldn't even move. He describes this experience here at the 20:10 min. point in the video...

Our digital clock read 3:01 AM when something like the force of a 747 jet blew through every cell of my body. I pinned myself onto the bed, trembling. Then I heard an audible voice. "You said you wanted to see Me. Turn Around." My hair stood on end, and all the strength drained from my body. I had never experienced anything of that magnitude in my life. Somehow, I managed to choke out one word, "No".

www.jdm.org...

An unreconciled sinner in Heaven would be more out of place than a pardoned saint in Hell...

The Heavenly Vision and Other Sermons - Google Books

"Self-banishment ; an unreconciled sinner will not choose heaven but hell ; " anywhere, to get out of the presence of God. Heaven is the last place to which an unrenewed soul would go.

George F. Pentecost: Life, Labor, and Bible Studies - Google Books

God is like electricity. He is powerful, unique, and therefore demands respect. Putting sin in the presence of God would be like putting a nail in the holes of an electrical outlet. The flesh of sinful man cannot survive an encounter with the power and glory of God. Sin does not mix with God. God puts distance between him and us for our own good. His absence is grace.

When God Isn't There - Google Books

Unless you repent and are converted, you will go to the domain of the Prince of those good fellows. Where God is, you cannot come. It is not suited to you. You might as well place a bird at the bottom of the sea, or put a fish in the air, as place an ungodly sinner in heaven. How to Be Suited for Heaven What is to be done then? You must have a new nature. I pray that God may give it to you. Remember, if you now feel your need of a Savior, that is the beginning of the new nature.

The Fullness of Joy - C. H. Spurgeon - Google Books

You know what He said? “I’m coming to visit my people and My glory is awesome.” I said, “God, ‘I don’t understand your glory?” I have a grandson which I absolutely adore. He said, “What do you desire the most?” I said, “I want to love that grandson. I want to hold and kiss him and love him.” “What if I told you that my glory was upon you and you couldn’t even look at that grandson?”

I said, “God that would be the cruelest thing you could ever do to me because I know I would forget. I would want to touch him and that child disintegrate in front of me.” God says, “That’s what my glory does to sin.” God said, “Adam and Eve were in the garden, clothed with my glory. We communed face-to-face. When they sinned the glory fell and I wanted to embrace them but I didn’t because my glory would consume them.” So God the Father had to back off and Jesus became the way. Jesus stands between us and the Father.

You know, the sun shining down on this earth. It’s got two deadly rays. If they weren’t deflected by the earth’s atmosphere we would be consumed. If Jesus didn’t stand between us and the Father, we would be consumed. But you know what Jesus says? He said Bride I am getting you ready for Glory. I will purify you, I will make you Holy because I want to present you to my Father without blame, faultless, spotless that He may touch you, that He may embrace you, that He may hold you to His bosom without you being consumed.

ICHABOD, The Glory Has Departed