The Myth of Hell

originally posted by: Murgatroid
a reply to: Soulece

Where's your proof that God is satan?

I mean seriously come on, this isn't a courtroom...

I'm not saying he is for sure. I'm saying its possible. Everything is possible. Nothing is impossible. Nothing is certain right now as everything including Religion is theory, unless proven otherwise. And words in a book is not proof. Simple as that.

It's reaaaally easy to say something is fact because you believe it. It's really hard to debate your claims to be fact when there's an opposition that can contradict your way of thinking.

8)

a reply to: Soulece

I don't understand your bias. You saying after you die you stand in front of God/Jesus naked is literally no different than any other religion saying their own philosophy. Also, it's unintelligent to send a good person to hell because they chose not to believe in a God. Thats forced doctrine. Almost Nazi like. Enjoy that one. No bitterness whatsoever

You are quite right except that Christianity is not forced upon anyone such as some other religions are. Your choice. No one is actually good in everyone's eyes. Good to you may be silly to other people. One might love their kids and kick the dog and still be considered good. Your choice.

The only, I guess problem, I have, is that the moment you take a book, when theres more than one religion, and say your religion is right, and others are wrong, you show lack of intelligence to me.

So what you are saying is that if I choose a religion above other religions then I am not intelligent? Then I would be intelligent to choose all religions the same? And that is intelligent? Why then would I need to choose a religion if they are all equal? Where would there be a choice between true and untrue? Adolf Hitler had a religion so your idea of intelligence is to insist that Adolph and Jesus are equally true. And that is intelligence?

This is why I asked many friends who are religious what if God was proven not to exist what would they do? Well, they declared there was no point to life and they would kill themselves. Lack of mental fortitude. Now, I present you with the new challenge question: What if God were proven to not be real? What if?

What if? -- My answer is that if you prove that God does not exist then I will acknowledge that I am wrong. But you must do this before I die so get to it. Meanwhile I will continue in what I have chosen as religion.

a reply to: Seede

1. Fair. It is a choice. I cannot and will not argue with you on that one.
2. Yes, I do think it shows unintelligence because you let your bias opinion take over. You're indoctrinated to believe one book of religion and shun out all the others simply because it feels right to you. So, in the end, you are telling others they are wrong (without saying it to them) and that you are right. That is ridiculous.
3. Excellent answer. I look for that answer. Good job.

a reply to: Soulece

A few more pieces of the puzzle that might help you understand...

This life is a preparation for the next...

Fire on the Altar MP3

One of the main reasons you were placed on this planet was to be tested by God...

HOW CAN I FIND GOD?

God is very picky as to who He reveals Himself to. "The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose hearts are perfect toward Him." The term "perfect" means sincere. The reason why many people never have the Living God reveal Himself to them, is because their hearts are darkened by sin, the condition of the Fallen nature of humanity.

Many of us want to know God...but not if He is going to cram His moral code onto us. and that is at the heart of the darkness of our hearts. We just don't want God telling us what to do, so we seek out other gods, ones that promise us heaven, and no Hell to be responsible for sinning against other individuals. A "religion" that makes us feel good about ourselves, yet removes guilt for our lack of moral restraint. "Man loves darkness rather than light." And that is why God does not reveal Himself to most people...because of the darkness in men's hearts.

Dead link

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
God doesn't lie either - but he veils the truth from those who consider themselves wise in their own eyes. Finding the truth is a matter of humility and the acceptance of our need for grace (nobody can be counted pure in the eyes of God... Perseverance in seeking the person of God is the key. If we knock, the door will be opened. After that, it's just a matter of time until he 'leads us into all truth' by the power of His Spirit.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
You are an open-minded sort of person, by the look of things! A rare thing in these days and times. I would advise you to pray a simple prayer, and see what happens. Test it out! Simply say: ''God, if you are real, would you reveal yourself to me in some way. I want to know the Truth...''

That's what I did ten years ago, and the very next day someone walked past me in the street, before stopping, turning back and pointing to me. She said: '"You've been praying. God answers prayer. Come with me...''

She was prompted by the still, small voice of calm, the voice of God's own Spirit, who lives with all believers, to be an intermediary between me and God, to prove His existence, so that I could answer the call of God, to give my life to Him.

I came to faith in Christ through her talking with me, and since that day God has shown me a thousand things that I would have no natural way of knowing. He does so in order to help us in real, practical and spiritual ways, and to help others to come to know Him. He desires for you to walk with Him, and to know His voice, and to bless your life in a million different ways.

Take it or leave it - but I hope you take it, in faith.

Ask, and you will receive. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened to you.

Don't bother with 'Droidus the spirit guide' (or others like him) - he has no answers for anyone; not even those who are devoted to him. God Himself will be your guide.

"If that is not enough, I challenge all non-believers to ask him yourself. If you ask Jesus directly if he is real, to show himself to you, in an honest and humble manner, simply a search for truth, he will do something to show you he is real. Please be patient, as he will do this on his timing, not yours!!"

Dead Link

The Bible tells us that if we DILIGENTLY seek God, that He will reveal Himself to us. So have at it! Just say "God if you are real, SHOW ME!" Say it out loud, and be patient and DILIGENT - Do it each day diligently and persistently until He shows up. It won't be God the Father, but it will be either Jesus or an angel who will appear to you or you will hear His voice - either in your spirit or audible. He will do it in His timing, not yours, so be persistent and diligent and patient!

A guy at my school was speaking and he said he talking at a convention and he went up to a girl and gave her $20, she started bursting crying.. And she said that when she woke up that she asked God "If your real someone will give me $20 today" So God can show himself in many ways.

www.youtube.com...

"God told Norvel Hayes the church is sadly lacking. We do not worship Him enough. You have to get alone in the privacy of your home and get on your knees and just worship Jesus, telling Him how much you love Him and appreciate Him. So I did. And after a few weeks, suddenly, God began to speak. After a while, Jesus began to appear to me. He would just walk in my room like an ordinary person and sit and talk to me."

Unleashing the Supernatural Power of God in Your Life

a reply to: All Seeing Eye

The Firmament, is the crust of this planet. He does not create "Hell", he created "Heaven". The waters above, and the waters below, is self explanatory.Text

You are mixed up in understanding Genesis. I suggest you need oral Torah along with written Torah to help you understand. The firmament is the space of atmosphere. About 62 miles of space from earth to the end of atmosphere.

When the firmament was created, the earth was engulfed in water. That water was divided with a space left between the water left upon the earth and the water above the earth. The water above the earth still encompassed the entire world in a sort of canopy of water. This space that was created was called the first heaven. The first heaven [firmament] is actually the space where the birds fly about and the air [gases] that we breath.

This water which was above the earth's atmosphere [firmament] was the water that fell upon the earth in the flood of Noah. This opened up the closed environment to an open environment. The second heaven then became visible to us as any space above the 62 mile atmosphere. The second heaven is where the moon, sun, and stars are placed. So today we have the earth and then the atmosphere or firmament or first heaven of 62 miles and then the second heaven or as we call it the outer universe.

originally posted by: Ursushorribilis2. It's anti-christian.

Of course, it's anti-Christian. Jesus was Jewish, and said salvation comes from the Jews. Hell is a Jewish concept. And Jesus reaffirmed as Jew the existence of hell.

originally posted by: Soulece
I'm not saying he is for sure. I'm saying its possible. Everything is possible. Nothing is impossible. Nothing is certain right now as everything including Religion is theory, unless proven otherwise. And words in a book is not proof. Simple as that.

It's reaaaally easy to say something is fact because you believe it. It's really hard to debate your claims to be fact when there's an opposition that can contradict your way of thinking.

Not debating, I only speak of what I have experienced myself personally.

Wisdom is only gained through experience.

A quote from one of the finest posts Iv'e ever read on ATS about this:

originally posted by: WeAllDieSoon
The nature of the Truth is that not everyone hears it. The proof of God is everywhere. Creation itself is proof.

Knowing the Truth and proclaiming it is not pride. I can provide evidence, which I already have, but proof is something that comes from God. The truth is either God revealed the truth or He didn't. The truth is you have been given the ability to seek the truth. Where there is smoke... Me, I know because I spent years seeking. My God has revealed Himself to me. He does that after you seek Him. He does it because He said He would.

You can't know if I am telling the truth, though. That is because God designed your reality so that it is up to you, personally, to seek the truth. If you hear it, and believe it, you will seek God. And then you will know what I know.

a reply to: SickWave

I've not seen one piece of real evidence that would convince me that He was in fact Jewish.

originally posted by: sweftl337
The word “Jew” never existed in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic and Jesus spoke mostly Greek and Aramaic. First of all, if we go back some 2000 years, there were no Jews. There was a land known as “Judea” and in that land lived many different peoples. The people of Moses were the Hebrew Israelite's – there was no Jew.

originally posted by: Nichiren
Jesus was a 'Judean', not a Jew. During His lifetime, no persons were described as "Jews" anywhere. That fact is supported by theology, history and science. In none of the manuscripts of the original Old or New Testament was Jesus described or referred to as a "Jew". The term originated in the late eighteenth century as an abbreviation of the term Judean and refers to a resident of Judea without regard to race or religion, just as the term "Texan" signifies a person living in Texas.

In spite of the powerful propaganda effort of the so-called "Jews", they have been unable to prove in recorded history that there is one record, prior to that period, of a race religion or nationality, referred to as "Jew". The religious sect in Judea, in the time of Jesus, to which self-styled "Jews" today refer to as "Jews", were known as "Pharisees". "Judaism" today and "Pharisaism" in the time of Jesus are the same. Jesus abhorred and denounced "Pharisaism"; hence the words, "Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites, Ye Serpents, Ye Generation of Vipers".

“Judaism as we know it today did not exist before Christ. Before Christ, there was only the faith of the Israelites, until by a gradual process, the pure faith of the Israelites was subverted by corrupt teachings. These corrupt teachings were transmitted orally by the Pharisees. Christ condemned these teachings when calling them the ‘traditions of the elders.’”

Judaism Discovered

When the word "Jew" was first introduced into the English language in the 18th century its one and only implication, inference and innuendo was "Judean." However during the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries a well-organized and well-financed international "pressure group" created a so-called "secondary meaning" for the word "Jew" among the English speaking peoples of the world. This so-called "secondary meaning" for the word "Jew" bears no relation whatsoever to the 18th century original connotation of the word "Jew." It is a misrepresentation. . .

There is not a person in the whole English-speaking world today who regards a "Jew" as a "Judean" in the literal sense of the Word. That was the correct and only meaning of the word in the 18th century . . . (Facts Are Facts, by Benjamin H. Freedman, p. 15-21). The meaning of the word "Jew" in our Bible is not the same as the colloquial idiom.

Jesus Christ was not a Jew. Had Jesus been a Judean it is very likely He would have been an Edomite, not a kinsman to Adam, and thereby disqualified from being the Holy One of Israel, the last Adam, who was born to redeem the first (Leviticus 25; Ruth). Were Jesus a so-called Jew He would not have been Messiah whom the Lord prophesied would dwell in Galilee of the Gentiles (Isaiah 9:1-7). Jesus did not live in Judea and dared not walk in Jewry (i.e. Judea), "for fear of the Jews" who sought to kill Him.

History of God's Holy Bible and the so-called Jews

a reply to: Murgatroid

Wasn't Mary Jewish?

originally posted by: Soulece
a reply to: Ursushorribilis
I was bapthised. I went to church growing up. I was active with the church. I just now said "Lord I need to talk to you". I got nothing back. No goosebumps. No extra feeling. Shoot, I've seen mirrors in dreams I've had and in that mirror was Jesus Christ. So you'd think I'd at least be able to interract with God? Well, I just tried.

Jesse Duplantis prayed for two years before God visited him...

That's why I posted this earlier:

God is very picky as to who He reveals Himself to. "The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose hearts are perfect toward Him." The term "perfect" means sincere.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
Years ago Jesse Duplantis kept asking to see the Lord and when He finally did show up he was so paralyzed with fear he couldn't even move. He describes this experience here at the 20:10 min. point in the video...

I had read in the Bible where God had shown Himself to people, so I decided I wanted to see the Lord. I said, "Now, God, You showed Yourself to men like Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Peter and Paul. Why won't You show Yourself to me? What's wrong? I'm just a Cajun from South Louisiana, but I would like to see You. You said You're no respecter of persons, but it looks like You are." I was getting a little angry at God. I wasn't praying right because I was just a baby Christian, and I didn't have much sense spiritually. I was wearing those spiritual diapers and praying wrong, but God understands. I just wanted to touch God. When my wife and I went to a revival, I had another close encounter with God that shook me to my shoes. In the middle of the meeting I was called out by the minister. He said, "You, sir...come up here."

The first thought I had was: Oh, God, what did I do wrong? But I really didn't think I had done anything wrong. He said, "I don't know who you are, sir, but the Lord tells me that you have been asking to see Him." My antenna shot up! Then he said, "The Lord told me to tell you that He shall grant you a visitation." I thought to myself, But I've been praying two years for this, and God hasn't heard a thing I've said. This occurred in 1976 after I was saved in September of '74. Two weeks passed, but God hadn't come to visit me. As a baby Christian, that made me mad. I got aggravated and vexed! I thought, That guy just missed it; God doesn't want to come and see me!

Better To Believe Without Seeing

I got out of bed then and headed toward the living room. That experience had made me hungry, so I went by way of the refrigerator and fixed a sandwich. As I sat down on the couch eating it, I was feeling like an idiot. I said, "God, You came to me. I heard You with my physical ears, and I didn't even turn around!" He spoke these words to my spirit: "I'm glad you didn't. It's better that you not see Me and still believe." I said, "But it's my heart's desire to see You." He said, "But you wouldn't be able to handle My glory. You're living in a corruptible vessel, a body that will die."

HEAVEN - Close Encounters of the God Kind (Page 23)

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: Soulece
a reply to: Ursushorribilis
I was bapthised. I went to church growing up. I was active with the church. I just now said "Lord I need to talk to you". I got nothing back. No goosebumps. No extra feeling. Shoot, I've seen mirrors in dreams I've had and in that mirror was Jesus Christ. So you'd think I'd at least be able to interract with God? Well, I just tried.

Jesse Duplantis prayed for two years before God visited him...

That's why I posted this earlier:

God is very picky as to who He reveals Himself to. "The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose hearts are perfect toward Him." The term "perfect" means sincere.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
Years ago Jesse Duplantis kept asking to see the Lord and when He finally did show up he was so paralyzed with fear he couldn't even move. He describes this experience here at the 20:10 min. point in the video...

I had read in the Bible where God had shown Himself to people, so I decided I wanted to see the Lord. I said, "Now, God, You showed Yourself to men like Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Peter and Paul. Why won't You show Yourself to me? What's wrong? I'm just a Cajun from South Louisiana, but I would like to see You. You said You're no respecter of persons, but it looks like You are." I was getting a little angry at God. I wasn't praying right because I was just a baby Christian, and I didn't have much sense spiritually. I was wearing those spiritual diapers and praying wrong, but God understands. I just wanted to touch God. When my wife and I went to a revival, I had another close encounter with God that shook me to my shoes. In the middle of the meeting I was called out by the minister. He said, "You, sir...come up here."

The first thought I had was: Oh, God, what did I do wrong? But I really didn't think I had done anything wrong. He said, "I don't know who you are, sir, but the Lord tells me that you have been asking to see Him." My antenna shot up! Then he said, "The Lord told me to tell you that He shall grant you a visitation." I thought to myself, But I've been praying two years for this, and God hasn't heard a thing I've said. This occurred in 1976 after I was saved in September of '74. Two weeks passed, but God hadn't come to visit me. As a baby Christian, that made me mad. I got aggravated and vexed! I thought, That guy just missed it; God doesn't want to come and see me!

Better To Believe Without Seeing

I got out of bed then and headed toward the living room. That experience had made me hungry, so I went by way of the refrigerator and fixed a sandwich. As I sat down on the couch eating it, I was feeling like an idiot. I said, "God, You came to me. I heard You with my physical ears, and I didn't even turn around!" He spoke these words to my spirit: "I'm glad you didn't. It's better that you not see Me and still believe." I said, "But it's my heart's desire to see You." He said, "But you wouldn't be able to handle My glory. You're living in a corruptible vessel, a body that will die."

HEAVEN - Close Encounters of the God Kind (Page 23)

Well, if we're being real here, I've seen what others would accept as god. Hallucinated a face on a wall that made me feel fear and I said prayer I never once new in my life. I dreamed I looked in a mirror and in the mirror was Jesus's face. Also had another dream where I saw an old man and he told me everything is going to be okay and that was the only time I can recall I ever felt bliss in my life time. I'm also cognitively aware that what I see could just be my brain manifesting itself and not entirely an outside source.

originally posted by: SickWave

originally posted by: Ursushorribilis2. It's anti-christian.

Of course, it's anti-Christian. Jesus was Jewish, and said salvation comes from the Jews. Hell is a Jewish concept. And Jesus reaffirmed as Jew the existence of hell.

What in the world are you talking about? The eternal torture and suffering for sin type of hell is not at all a jewish construct....not even in the slightest... The concept of an immortal soul, which wasn't a keystone of early judaism, led to the eventual construct of eternal suffering... because without an eternal soul there could never be eternal torment... (Genesis 3:22 is a prime example...)

21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Dante Alighieri, St. Augustine, the first century(BCE) poet Virgil as well the first century Greek geographer and philosopher Strabo, as well as Plato were some of the defining figures you can trace the concept of an eternal pit of torment(hell) back to... I suggest you research a bit more next time...


A2D

a reply to: Soulece

Post above covered that I think...

“Judaism as we know it today did not exist before Christ...

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree

originally posted by: SickWave

originally posted by: Ursushorribilis2. It's anti-christian.

Of course, it's anti-Christian. Jesus was Jewish, and said salvation comes from the Jews. Hell is a Jewish concept. And Jesus reaffirmed as Jew the existence of hell.

What in the world are you talking about? The eternal torture and suffering for sin type of hell is not at all a jewish construct....not even in the slightest... The concept of an immortal soul, which wasn't a keystone of early judaism, led to the eventual construct of eternal suffering... because without an eternal soul there could never be eternal torment...

Dante Alighieri, St. Augustine, the first century(BCE) poet Virgil as well the first century Greek geographer and philosopher Strabo, as well as Plato were some of the defining figures you can trace the concept of an eternal pit of torment(hell) back to... I suggest you research a bit more next time...


A2D

Then why would anyone take what they say as gospel if all they were were philosophers and geographers?
Simple minded people will believe anything.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
a reply to: Soulece

Post above covered that I think...

“Judaism as we know it today did not exist before Christ...

Does not matter what jewish is defined as today, born of jewish descent, you are jewish. Just like a person born in Africa to an African mother is African.

originally posted by: Soulece

Then why would anyone take what they say as gospel if all they were were philosophers and geographers?
Simple minded people will believe anything.

Like Strabo wrote in Geography.....(concerning the value of myths such as hell)

the states and the lawgivers had sanctioned them as a useful expedient.”... (people) “are deterred from evil courses when, either through descriptions or through typical representations of objects unseen, they learn of divine punishments, terrors, and threats.”..... “there is need of religious fear also, and this cannot be aroused without myths and marvels. . . . The founders of states gave their sanction to these things as bugbears wherewith to scare the simple-minded”

(Geography 1.2.8).

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

That is taking somebodys point of view as fact and could be the same as taking my own personal view. There's no difference. That is not a credible source of fact.

The best scholarly historical survey of known beliefs about death and the afterlife can be found in N.T.Wright's volume The Resurrection of the Son of God where he lays out the historical manuscript evidence prior to a review of the Resurrection.

It's 600+ pages but worth reading...

www.amazon.com... ol/dp/0800626796

a reply to: troubleshooter

I ain't buying that lmao. Nobody should buy something thats a point of view, unless, that's their fancy.

a reply to: Soulece

I didn't state it as fact....You asked why anyone would take what a group of (very influential) philosophers might have to say as gospel...I gave you an example reason... not THE reason...but a possible(and probable) one...

A2D