The Myth of Hell

a reply to: Murgatroid

You talk of God's will as if you are close buds with him and he tells you things. The truth is, no one knows the nature of God.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: Soulece
Choice as in if they accept Jesus, right? Well if that's what you meant, thats going full circle with what I've been discussing above. Did I misunderstand this?

Your jigsaw puzzle is missing one very important piece...

Just as darkness cannot exist in the presence of light, sin cannot exist in the presence of a holy God, He refuses to coexist with it.

Mankind's sin nature, as a result of the fall, is an unholy thing and nothing unholy can stand in the presence of a holy God.

Years ago Jesse Duplantis kept asking to see the Lord and when He finally did show up he was so paralyzed with fear he couldn't even move. He describes this experience here at the 20:10 min. point in the video...

Our digital clock read 3:01 AM when something like the force of a 747 jet blew through every cell of my body. I pinned myself onto the bed, trembling. Then I heard an audible voice. "You said you wanted to see Me. Turn Around." My hair stood on end, and all the strength drained from my body. I had never experienced anything of that magnitude in my life. Somehow, I managed to choke out one word, "No".

www.jdm.org...

An unreconciled sinner in Heaven would be more out of place than a pardoned saint in Hell...

The Heavenly Vision and Other Sermons - Google Books

"Self-banishment ; an unreconciled sinner will not choose heaven but hell ; " anywhere, to get out of the presence of God. Heaven is the last place to which an unrenewed soul would go.

George F. Pentecost: Life, Labor, and Bible Studies - Google Books

God is like electricity. He is powerful, unique, and therefore demands respect. Putting sin in the presence of God would be like putting a nail in the holes of an electrical outlet. The flesh of sinful man cannot survive an encounter with the power and glory of God. Sin does not mix with God. God puts distance between him and us for our own good. His absence is grace.

When God Isn't There - Google Books

Unless you repent and are converted, you will go to the domain of the Prince of those good fellows. Where God is, you cannot come. It is not suited to you. You might as well place a bird at the bottom of the sea, or put a fish in the air, as place an ungodly sinner in heaven. How to Be Suited for Heaven What is to be done then? You must have a new nature. I pray that God may give it to you. Remember, if you now feel your need of a Savior, that is the beginning of the new nature.

The Fullness of Joy - C. H. Spurgeon - Google Books

You know what He said? “I’m coming to visit my people and My glory is awesome.” I said, “God, ‘I don’t understand your glory?” I have a grandson which I absolutely adore. He said, “What do you desire the most?” I said, “I want to love that grandson. I want to hold and kiss him and love him.” “What if I told you that my glory was upon you and you couldn’t even look at that grandson?”

I said, “God that would be the cruelest thing you could ever do to me because I know I would forget. I would want to touch him and that child disintegrate in front of me.” God says, “That’s what my glory does to sin.” God said, “Adam and Eve were in the garden, clothed with my glory. We communed face-to-face. When they sinned the glory fell and I wanted to embrace them but I didn’t because my glory would consume them.” So God the Father had to back off and Jesus became the way. Jesus stands between us and the Father.

You know, the sun shining down on this earth. It’s got two deadly rays. If they weren’t deflected by the earth’s atmosphere we would be consumed. If Jesus didn’t stand between us and the Father, we would be consumed. But you know what Jesus says? He said Bride I am getting you ready for Glory. I will purify you, I will make you Holy because I want to present you to my Father without blame, faultless, spotless that He may touch you, that He may embrace you, that He may hold you to His bosom without you being consumed.

ICHABOD, The Glory Has Departed

Unfortunately I still do not understand what you're trying to say. "Just as darkness cannot exist in the presence of light, sin cannot exist in the presence of a holy God, He refuses to coexist with it. " Does not answer any question or fit the context of the discussion of the few posts you and I have had with eachother.
In the scenario, the good person never sins. But when they die they still are atheist. Do they go to hell?
That's what we were talking about.

originally posted by: Ursushorribilis
a reply to: Murgatroid

You talk of God's will as if you are close buds with him and he tells you things. The truth is, no one knows the nature of God.

This has to be the most intelligent post on this entire thread.

a reply to: Ursushorribilis

2. It's anti-christian. Christianity preaches love and forgiveness. Hellfire is in direct conflict with the entire message of Christianity.

So true in pointing this out. Hypocritical at least, or, a ruse..

So, what might be the true reason hell was created? What is "Hell"?

The Bible Says Hell is Under the Earth: An Atheists' Myth

In my opinion this concept of Hell was created to scare and convert people of different beliefs.

Agreed, the first Fear tactic. Today, everything is used to promote fear.

The whole concept is nothing more than skillful mind control.

Since the earth is solid or semi-molten all the way to the core, it would seem unlikely that humans (even the souls of the damned) would be able to live there.

The Bible does not say hell is under our feet, and in actuality, the Bible tells us, "Heaven", is under our feet.
Re-read Genesis....

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

The Firmament, is the crust of this planet. He does not create "Hell", he created "Heaven". The waters above, and the waters below, is self explanatory.

And again, I'm not going to argue what might lay below the crust of this planet. No one "Knows" for certain what is or is not there. As no direct observations have been made, it is all theory, with no scientific basis. Except for the deepest man made hole on earth, the Kola Superdeep Borehole And that proved science was wrong about a few things. But that was only 7.5 miles down.

God had already told us what was there, WATER!

The study of the Earth is often largely limited to surface observations and seismic studies, but the Kola borehole allowed a direct look at the structure of the crust and put geologist’s theories to the test. One of the most surprising findings was the absence of the transition from granite to basalt, which scientists had long expected to exist between three and six kilometers below the surface. Known to geologists as the “Conrad discontinuity,” this transition in rock type was reasoned to exist due to the results of seismic-reflection surveys.

Though the discontinuity has been detected beneath all of the continents, the drill at Kola never encountered the proposed layer of basalt. Instead, the granitic rock was found to extend beyond the twelve kilometer point. This led to scientists’ realization that the seismic-reflection results were due to a metamorphic change in the rock (i.e. from intense heat and pressure), and not a change in rock type as they had previously anticipated. And if the non-existence of an entire layer of the Earth’s crust is not surprising enough, the cracks of the rock many kilometers below the surface were found to be saturated with water. As free water is not supposed to exist at such great depths, researchers believe the water consists of hydrogen and oxygen atoms that have been squeezed out of the surrounding rock by the enormous pressure and retained below the surface due to a layer of impermeable rock above.

www.atlasobscura.com...

So, what I suggest is their might be another reason for convincing folks not to look in that direction. Its full of molten rock, and evil souls........ Or, maybe something else....

That's what I think..

“God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.”
― Terry Pratchett, Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch

I choose not to participate in religion. But I've seen divine intervention. I don't buy into religion as we know it but I've seen enough to know there is a higher power. I also know there is pure evil in this world. I've been face to face with that also.

So why do we exist? It isn't to be parasites on the earth like fleas on a dog. Life has to serve a higher purpose.

a reply to: BEBOG

No repentance comes after making a mistake... The key is seeing the patterns of ones volition that keep them making those mistakes then no repentance needed, one comes to see where and why they keep harming themselves and others and stops.

Oh, I do agree with that completely. The key is not to sin in the first place. That's what Jesus has said from the start. Now there is only one problem. How do you do that? So far not one human has ever been able to not sin except for the man Jesus. So till you figure that out you will have to settle for repenting.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: BEBOG

No repentance comes after making a mistake... The key is seeing the patterns of ones volition that keep them making those mistakes then no repentance needed, one comes to see where and why they keep harming themselves and others and stops.

Oh, I do agree with that completely. The key is not to sin in the first place. That's what Jesus has said from the start. Now there is only one problem. How do you do that? So far not one human has ever been able to not sin except for the man Jesus. So till you figure that out you will have to settle for repenting.

So, you're claiming you know every single human being that is on this earth or has walked on this earth? Surely thats the only way you can proclaim not a single person has not sinned on this planet.

originally posted by: Ursushorribilis
Modern day Christianity preaches of Eternal Hellfire. In my opinion this concept of Hell was created to scare and convert people of different beliefs.

Logically it just doesn't make sense.

1. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.
30 years of adultery, or whatever your vice is, doesn't equate to eternal Hellfire.

2. It's anti-christian. Christianity preaches love and forgiveness. Hellfire is in direct conflict with the entire message of Christianity.

What do you think?

It's not the actual crime that you're punished for. It's being separated from God. Separation from God, means that you're pretty much meat for the evil side that you chose. Whatever happens in Hell, stays in Hell. Just because you say its not real, doesn't mean it isn't. We have no proof that it exists, but you also have none to assure me that it doesn't. I know there are a great deal of people throughout history from all parts of the world, and all beliefs that believe it exists. There are many stories from people who have gotten a glimpse, and by the numbers....that's actually more than science has given us to prove otherwise. Just because you can't see it in the physical form, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I can't see oxygen, but it's all around us. I can't see most of what CERN deals with, but the things they deal with that our human eyes can't see are more powerful than anything we can see. We can't see an atom with our own eyes, but it's enough to destroy a country when you split it. My guess is that we just hacven't found the way to be able to view the spiritual side...but then, there are those who worship Satan, who claim that they commune with demons all the time.

I know one thing. I am going to believe because if I am wrong and I die....no big deal. It didn't matter anyway...but if I am right and Hell does exist...and I get it wrong? Well, that's a mistake that I will have to deal with for eternity.

You mentioned that it's not Christian, yet its in the Christian bible, and Jesus spoke of it quite a few times. Yes, Hell is not Christian, and Christianity is all about love and forgiveness....unless you deny God, or that his son Jesus died for your sins to keep you from being separated from God. Those who want to be separated from God, will be. That is their belief, and their belief is what they get in the end. No God. Without God, there are only Demon's, Satan and Hell. Have fun.

I can be separated from God and not do a single evil deed. That's not hard to fathom.

a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

So if you only believe because of the fear of hell....you're not a Christian.

a reply to: Soulece

This is the question I was responding to:

Now I have to give you the challenge question: If somebody lived their entire life of helping others and was good, but decided to be an atheist, do they go to hell? If so, there is no logic there.

What I was trying to say is there IS logic there, even if you don't see it.

I just gave the reasons (missing puzzle pieces) WHY you don't see it.

Nicodemus asked Jesus the same questions you're asking:

Right click & view to zoom in...
Source: Just Give Me Jesus - Anne Graham Lotz - Google Books

Nicodemus "filthy rags" - Google Search

a reply to: Murgatroid

Hmmm. No. Because reading that it says that person did some form of evil. The person in this challenge question has done not a single evil thing. Not thought himself better than anyone. Not smug, etc. So no, that is not parallel.

a reply to: Murgatroid
EDIT: Woops double post

a reply to: Soulece

All throughout Scripture, God makes it clear that His nature is holiness.

This also directly relates to what I said about your missing puzzle piece on page 9 BTW...

An unreconciled sinner in Heaven would be more out of place than a pardoned saint in Hell...

a reply to: Soulece

There has only been one man in all history that hasn't done a single evil thing...

originally posted by: Murgatroid
a reply to: Soulece

There has only been one man in all history that hasn't done a single evil thing...

Wheres your proof other than having to know every single human being thats ever been on this earth? There is no other way to know this.

a reply to: Ursushorribilis

Why else do you think He made us?

What it is, is that you just sit down and try to, and get out of the religious way of thinking. Sit on your couch, wherever you are in your house, and just say, "Lord, I need to talk to you. I want to be your friend." See, that's another thing I read, that Abraham was a friend of God. Wait a minute. If Abraham can be a friend, how come I can't be a friend? You know what the Lord told me? He said, "I need friends, Jesse."

See, most people pray to him and never talk to him. Now I want to tell you something, what's going to happen, you're going to feel foolish, you're going to feel silly because your intellectual activity, your range of research, your induction and reason, that's all in the mind. But see, you're getting out of your mind. You say, "Lord," all of a sudden you're going to hear something, First, you'll sense the presence. He'll come in that room. I mean, you're going to get some goosebumps. You'll go, whoa.

Because see, the body can't handle anything spiritual. It just reacts. It doesn't know what to do. But that spirit goes [pfft]. It will pull real quick. Your spirit is in 100 percent contact with God if you're born again. What your problem is, is that your soul is real.

Jesse Duplantis LIVE with Sid Roth (@ 26 MIN.) & Transcript

a reply to: Soulece

Where's your proof that God is satan?

I mean seriously come on, this isn't a courtroom...

originally posted by: Murgatroid
a reply to: Ursushorribilis

Why else do you think He made us?

What it is, is that you just sit down and try to, and get out of the religious way of thinking. Sit on your couch, wherever you are in your house, and just say, "Lord, I need to talk to you. I want to be your friend." See, that's another thing I read, that Abraham was a friend of God. Wait a minute. If Abraham can be a friend, how come I can't be a friend? You know what the Lord told me? He said, "I need friends, Jesse."

See, most people pray to him and never talk to him. Now I want to tell you something, what's going to happen, you're going to feel foolish, you're going to feel silly because your intellectual activity, your range of research, your induction and reason, that's all in the mind. But see, you're getting out of your mind. You say, "Lord," all of a sudden you're going to hear something, First, you'll sense the presence. He'll come in that room. I mean, you're going to get some goosebumps. You'll go, whoa.

Because see, the body can't handle anything spiritual. It just reacts. It doesn't know what to do. But that spirit goes [pfft]. It will pull real quick. Your spirit is in 100 percent contact with God if you're born again. What your problem is, is that your soul is real.

Jesse Duplantis LIVE with Sid Roth (@ 26 MIN.) & Transcript

I was bapthised. I went to church growing up. I was active with the church. I just now said "Lord I need to talk to you". I got nothing back. No goosebumps. No extra feeling. Shoot, I've seen mirrors in dreams I've had and in that mirror was Jesus Christ. So you'd think I'd at least be able to interract with God? Well, I just tried.