The Myth of Hell

a reply to: silo13

Any chance you're heard faith alone is dead?

Meaning faith without works is dead...

Grace is a whitewash... Paulianity is a whitewash

Jesus did not teach grace... In fact he didn't even use the word once in the gospels

You seem to make everything he actually taught null and void

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: silo13

Any chance you're heard faith alone is dead?

Meaning faith without works is dead...

Grace is a whitewash... Paulianity is a whitewash

Jesus did not teach grace... In fact he didn't even use the word once in the gospels

You seem to make everything he actually taught null and void

I didn't say Faith alone is the thing (though it is because we cannot please God without faith)...

The fact is - when we are under the grace of Jesus, we will naturally want to do good works - but there is no way 'works' will 'get you to heaven'.

Grace is whitewash? Seriously? Want to explain that?

He taught - 'Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind. Love others as you want to be loved yourselves.'

THAT my friend is the Gospel.

And seriously? Jesus didn't use the word grace because HE IS GRACE and only a few times in the bible did he speak of himself directly.

originally posted by: Ursushorribilis
Modern day Christianity preaches of Eternal Hellfire. In my opinion this concept of Hell was created to scare and convert people of different beliefs.

Logically it just doesn't make sense.

1. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.
30 years of adultery, or whatever your vice is, doesn't equate to eternal Hellfire.

2. It's anti-christian. Christianity preaches love and forgiveness. Hellfire is in direct conflict with the entire message of Christianity.


What do you think?

Logically? Really? You're trying to apply logic to biblical texts? Wrong place to begin my friend...wrong place to begin...

As Akragon has commented, the texts actually mention several versions of afterlife. The first being Sheol. (I will also discuss Gehinnom and Olam Ha-Ba)

She'ol is simply described as a pit of darknesss, or a place of forgetfulness...The texts suggest that She'ol is a place of darkness where the deceased continue to exist apart from God, but there is no concept of reward or punishment included. In modern terms it would basically be your casket... In fact some of the texts such as Job 3 suggest that EVERYONE will visit Sheol, regardless of what you did in life... (She'ol is considered the same as Gehinnom by some, which we will discuss further down)

There the wicked cease from turmoil,
and there the weary are at rest.
Captives also enjoy their ease;
they no longer hear the slave driver’s shout.
The small and the great are there,
and the slaves are freed from their owners.

The concept of Olam Ha-Ba, or the world to come, came about with the Hellenistic notion of an eternal soul...The destruction of the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem brought with a theological crisis. Rabbis struggled to explain why good and decent Jews were made to suffer...and so they thought that perhaps their reward was not in this life, but in the next. Olam Ha-Ba is your modern day "heaven".

And finally we have the concept of Gehinnom, named after a valley in which villagers burned their trash and was once used as a place for child sacrifice by the Canaanites. Gehinnom is a place of purification in Jewish tradition, but some Rabbis also believe it to be a place of punishment... It's important to note that Gehinnom, as well as the former concept of hell or She'ol, is not viewed eternally. It's generally accepted that a soul's maximum time at Gehinnom can not exceed 12 months, and after that period of purification in which the soul reviews his/her life deeds and repents, it is sent to Olam Ha-Ba. There is however an exception for the utterly wicked..One who refuses to repent from their misdeeds...one who even faced with the truth will not acknowledge it... (Some rabbinic schools believe the utterly wicked are completely destroyed, others believe they are eternally damned)


Now granted, this is the jewish perspective on the concept of hell and what happens after life...but I would be more likely to believe in any of these concepts more than the fire and brimstone, hell or heaven, burn or repent, eternal damnation that is modern christianity.


There is a reason Christianity spread rapidly... part of it is the person of Christ.... the other part is how the message is portrayed...

A2D

originally posted by: silo13

The fact is - when we are under the grace of Jesus, we will naturally want to do good works -

Hold on there. Repeatable observation prove no such things as "under the grace of Jesus, we will naturally want to do good works"

We "naturally" do good works because of realization and experience. We learn to respect others and earn other people's respect in return, NOT because the grace of Jesus, but because of our parents, teachers, friends and others. All this good will, is also taught by Hindu, Buddha, Tao, Confucius, Shinto, Ancient Sumerian and Babylons , etc.. long before Jesus even exist. A pagan mother does not require Jesus grace to naturally teach her children how to behave and do good things.

"Naturally" We are still part of animal that drive on basic instinct for survival and reproduction, by any means necessary including doing bad things. Competition drive greed and jealousy which in turn motivate us to "cheat" and do many bad things. We are very still that part of animal. The only difference is we have better control over what we perceive as "good or bad"

It doesn't need to be in Jesus grace to "naturally will do good works". Earthly Jesus doesn't live eternally to offer his grace. Neither he's everywhere. Jesus didn't even leave Israel during his lifetime. Without faithful people who continue to do his missionary works, Jesus words and grace will never reach worldwide.

Now that's a fact.

a reply to: silo13

Grace is whitewash? Seriously? Want to explain that?

Sure... from the previous page...

Can you even imagine? Standing before a judge when you KNOW you are guilty? When you know you're going to the electric chair or the gas chamber, the noose or the firing squad... And JUST BEFORE the judge pronounced sentence - In walked a man who said, 'Your honor, I'm willing to take the place for this poor soul who's facing death'. The judge gangs his gavel and tells you to walk free in peace. And that man, takes your death on himself.

Thus... the golden ticket is introduced...

No matter what you do in life, as long as you believe in Jesus... You're good to go

that is Paulianity.... whitewash... making everything he taught null and void

Jesus did not teach faith alone.... Paul did

Jesus clearly taught works plus faith... Just as Judaism teaches

and by the way, every christian gives the same nonsense explanation as you just gave... Grace/faith naturally produces works... IF that was the case Christians would be loved all over the world

and that ain't the case because its simply not true...

Faith does not produce works... A good heart does

as your book says... the rules were written there... but few follow them

Usually when somebody claims something as fact, they need to back it up. My dilemma with Christians, is that they do not show the critical thinking skills necessary to support their claims. I'm still waiting on my challenge to any christian in here. If a person has done good throughout their life and on their death bed still claims they are atheist or just blatantly do not care if there's an afterlife or not, do they go to hell?

It's arrogance, I know. But godamn do I have a problem with people telling others how things are because of their beliefs.

a reply to: Soulece

Not a Christian... but if you were to subscribe to my system of beliefs... if this theoretical person were to actually exist, they would enter directly into Gan Eden, or the modern day equivalent of heaven... However, I do not believe such a person has ever, or will ever, exist...

A2D

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Soulece

Not a Christian... but if you were to subscribe to my system of beliefs... if this theoretical person were to actually exist, they would enter directly into Gan Eden, or the modern day equivalent of heaven...

A2D

That is the outcome I would lean towards. But I have no credible source to say its definitive. Just like the alternative.
I like playing with beliefs, because its all bias. Thats the secret behind this challenge I offer. To test the bias and to make the person aware of their beliefs as such. Its cruel, I know. But I challenge my own beliefs, too.

Hell is nothing less than a propaganda campaign. Put into place by the apostate (not apostle) Paul —whom was never an apostle of Jesus. A Roman shill. This all fits neatly into the control propaganda campaign of the Romans. Tithing anyone??? How else could the Catholic Church gain dominance and control, 2 thousand years ago. The current structure of all Christianity based religions that believe in hell — has just piggybacked on the hugely successful monetary gain of the forefather of lies — Roman Catholism. Just research Constantine. I can’t believe this is still a debate. If you still believe in this rubbish.... Open your eyes. I feel sorry for anyone that still buys into this BS.

Isn’t it interesting that the greatest shills are thousands of years old. With all the incredible minds out there today and debunking skills — especially on this site.... still there are many intellectuals that believe in this garbage. Apostate Paul has got everyone trumped!

a reply to: Soulece

I mean... I didn't know AM/PM even existed until someone took me there... Right? Life's a trip.

(You don't have to believe in something, or even acknowledge its existence, to be taken there.....)

A2D

a reply to: EasternShadow

Hold on there. Repeatable observation prove no such things as "under the grace of Jesus, we will naturally want to do good works"

Who's repeatable observation?

Christian observation of the gospel, what Christ taught, would, in following of our teacher and savior - propel us from our hearts to do our best for others.

We "naturally" do good works because of realization and experience.

'Naturally' we do what we want, what feeds us and what builds us up regardless of others.

It's only when we realize a 'better' way of life - because honestly leading a sinful life only bring us more pain - we change OR because we find Christ. The latter leads to salvation and everlasting life, the other? Doing 'right' by others because it seems to be cool at the time? Works. Works without Christ are as substantial as straw.

We learn to respect others and earn other people's respect in return, NOT because the grace of Jesus, but because of our parents, teachers, friends and others. All this good will, is also taught by Hindu, Buddha, Tao, Confucius, Shinto, Ancient Sumerian and Babylons , etc.. long before Jesus even exist. A pagan mother does not require Jesus grace to naturally teach her children how to behave and do good things.

Sure. There are a number of belief systems that support being good and kind, but without the salvation of Christ? It means NOTHING.

"Naturally" We are still part of animal that drive on basic instinct for survival and reproduction, by any means necessary including doing bad things. Competition drive greed and jealousy which in turn motivate us to "cheat" and do many bad things. We are very still that part of animal. The only difference is we have better control over what we perceive as "good or bad"

Sin nature. Yep. And yes, you can control what you do, good or bad, yet doing 'good' when it goes against our 'sin nature' becomes a 'do-able' thing, with Christ's help.

t doesn't need to be in Jesus grace to "naturally will do good works".

But 'good works' without salvation is a home built on sand that will wash away with no salvation.

Earthly Jesus doesn't live eternally to offer his grace.

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

Neither he's everywhere. Jesus didn't even leave Israel during his lifetime. Without faithful people who continue to do his missionary works, Jesus words and grace will never reach worldwide.

Well first? Jesus' words and grace are known world wide more than any other words alive today.

Beyond that? Jesus is omnipresent, omniscience and omnipotent. He knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end.

He died for sins past, present and future.

He existed before the universe came into being from his breath/making.

He is I AM and will forever be.

THAT is FACT.

And really? Why wouldn't you want everlasting life for the asking - for simply asking and believing?

a reply to: silo13

Your bias out look on life based on the book you were taught to believe in and accepted as you grew older is just a bias. Not automatically a fact.
I can prove this to make what I just said a fact. Also, not saying your beliefs are negative (although its a negative if you think sending a good persont o hell because they chose not to believe in Jesus is evil and I would say that god you believe in that has that mind set is satan)

All you have to do is read the entire bible and it definitely tells both heaven and hell is real.

originally posted by: Jobeycool
All you have to do is read the entire bible and it definitely tells both heaven and hell is real.

it also says a snake and a donkey spoke...


so...

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Jobeycool
All you have to do is read the entire bible and it definitely tells both heaven and hell is real.

it also says a snake and a donkey spoke...


so...

Not gonna argue and debate this continuous crap.The bible still says Heaven and Hell is real even if you do not believe the Bible God.....For goodnesss sakes......Like worthless to debate.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Jobeycool
All you have to do is read the entire bible and it definitely tells both heaven and hell is real.

it also says a snake and a donkey spoke...


so...

Not gonna argue and debate this continuous crap.The bible still says Heaven and Hell is real even if you do not believe the Bible God.....For goodnesss sakes......Like worthless to debate.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Jobeycool
All you have to do is read the entire bible and it definitely tells both heaven and hell is real.

it also says a snake and a donkey spoke...


so...

Not gonna argue and debate this continuous crap.The bible still says Heaven and Hell is real even if you do not believe the Bible God.....For goodnesss sakes......Like worthless to debate.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Jobeycool
All you have to do is read the entire bible and it definitely tells both heaven and hell is real.

it also says a snake and a donkey spoke...


so...

Not gonna argue and debate this continuous crap.The bible still says Heaven and Hell is real even if you do not believe the Bible God.....For goodnesss sakes......Like worthless to debate.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Jobeycool
All you have to do is read the entire bible and it definitely tells both heaven and hell is real.

it also says a snake and a donkey spoke...


so...

sorry about the lagg repost

a reply to: Jobeycool

Completely not the point...

Its not believing the bible or not... the bible says a lot of things are are just silly...

Just because its in the bible does not mean its the truth