Bigelow, UFOs, MUFON and ‘DeLonge’ Road to AATIP

a reply to: zeroPointOneQ

Great find! At least that clears that up.

It seems like Dr Green has held this view since the 1970s then.

a reply to: mirageman
A few more cogent points, now that I've digested this thread in totality and have had a brief conversation with one of the researchers involved with the "antenna project":

1) There can be no doubt that the word "Paraphrenia" when used in the older sense, or in the french usage describes me and a number of us in this thread rather well, and quite a few ATS members in general. I've fought these tendencies my entire life, since I first became aware of them, somewhere around the age of 8. I have an entire subroutine constructed to monitor them, which my wife calls my "third sense of self". This superego-like structure reigns in the worst of these tendencies, but if I let myself get too 'excited', then I get "corrupted", and then I'm stating things as fact, that are in fact just theory. I'm constantly fighting this.. I know better.... I"m a proponent of the scientific method all the way.. bu the tendency is still there at all times.

When I was younger, I was part of a metaphysical cult, and there was talk about me being a "holy man" who would represent the cult to the world.. now THAT sort of thing is BAD for someone with "Paraphrenia". It was a fascinating thought to be a religious figure, but i turned it down... and really PO'ed the "imperious leader" when I diagnosed the last "holy man" as a guy with Assperger's Syndrome. That was the end of my participation in a cult.

2) I'd say that this "Paraphrenia" has been with us forever.. since shamnaism and people like "Joan of Arc". While it certainluy does have negative outcomes, and has launched most religious, I'd like to think that in the best of cases,
it infuses a sort of charming creativity as well, opening speculative doors that would never have been opened otherwise, and perhaps in some cases, in conjunction with so-called "electro-sensitive sufferers" might indeed be related to so-called PSP activity / new physics

3) On a personal note, I was always torn in the past, as I had personal contact with probably the biggest scientific name in UFOlogy ever, a person always invited to participate in most ALL of this. He sometimes shares thoughts with me, that I must keep private. So I listen to people blather on about things that are clearly distorted, and I can't say anything really.

Of course this then makes me a target for people who think that I"m being "bennewitzed" or used, or that I'm actually
an "aviary person" myself. This is quite silly, but a valid concern no doubt.

I will say however, that since I do have (by loose definition) - Paraphrenia, and since I'm an "experiencer" (when I want to be only) and my grandmother was a triblal shaman (and I have the tendencies), I'm no doubt "on the radar", and I'm probably also a good bell-whether of "internet ufologist" perspective.. From a certain perspective, I must say that I'm probably a research subject and it's always good to keep track of one's research subjects, which necessitates something of a continuing relationship. But that said, my friend (and another friend who is sorta on the "aviary list") are both wonderful, loving, caring people, about whom a lot of rubbish is said on the Internet. But I must also suppose that they must "hold their nose" too, when they have to put up with commercialism and letter folks, who are funding things, when what they want is pure scientific research.

I wish that everything could just come out more into the open.

There is no doubt whatsoever, that some of these researchers 100% believe that these PSP Phenomenon, AT TIMES, directly affect the real physical world.. but then the Paraphrenia angle is joined at the hip as well. Not entirely real, not entirely liminal, it's a grey zone that must dive physicists who take it serious quite crazy.

Kev

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: wmd_2008

No doubt a lot of time and effort has been put into this but when you read things like this in the first few paragraphs

According to Sarfatti's account, Gigal claimed a gun battle took place at Skinwalker Ranch with paramilitary guards involved in a shootout against aliens emerging from a portal or wormhole type of phenomenon. He said he’d heard the rumour while visiting London in 2004

That gives me a little chuckle.........

Reading this and the rest of your post I don't think you have understood what the thread is about.

The alien story, whether true or not, is supposedly the reason why Bob Bigelow made the quote that opens the thread. I trust that clarifies it?

I do understand but like I said with ufo's it's same old same old the usual suspects the usual claims the usual assumptions and s^&t all else.

originally posted by: ctj83
a reply to: zeroPointOneQ

Great find! At least that clears that up.

It seems like Dr Green has held this view since the 1970s then.

Figuring out what views Kit actually holds seems somewhat of a challenge.

Jacques Vallee talked a lot about Kit Green (and Hal Puthoff) in his Forbidden Science journals. The following page is important to this discussion I think. A lot of the topics and theories we're discussing here raise their heads and we even see early incarnation of many now-familiar thoughts and study interests.

Doc Jock also makes some penetrating observations and raises some serious questions about where all the rabbit tunnels may lead.

The Men In Black(OPs)

Dr. Green also appears in the following article which is a must read if you are into ufology and are on the internet. Or a handy forum where a bunch of convenient "subsets"& "controls" might congregate . Kit is "Jim"

The Real X-Files - Is Uncle Sam a Closet UFOlogist?
By Gus Russo

Here's an excerpt from that article including direct quotes from "Jim" aka Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green

Then there is Jim, whose professional history in the subject goes back to his personal involvement in the Stargate project in the 1970’s and as a participant in the legendary “Working Group” meetings in the eighties. As one of the intel community’s most senior medical analysts, Jim frequently communicates with UFOlogists. Chris Iverson believes that Tom and Jim clearly have differing agendas, noting, “Jim is the person I have had the most contact with over the last several months and he seems to be interested in the spreading of viral memes over the internet, particularly in relation to this subject.” Iverson is not far off the mark. However, in a recent meeting with this writer, Jim explained that his internet presence emanates from a number of overlapping pursuits.

“The whole subject,” Jim says in wonderfully measured speech, “is composed of three components: delusion, sociological groupthink, and a kernel of truth.” Jim then reminds that he is first and foremost a medical scientist. “My interest in this subject is much, much more professional than it is personal. That is, 90 to 95% of all persons who are engaged fully with this [UFO] subject are psychiatrically ill, and by that I mean that they are on medication or should be.” Jim elaborates that “viral memes,”[see below] in which disturbed people seek validation in numbers on the web, is, or should be, a growing public health concern. That said, Jim nonetheless has a real interest in UFO’s, and seemingly with good reason.

Emphasis Mine:

“Jim” (pseudo.), a physician and former CIA officer in the Directorate of Science and Technology, maintains his security clearance, and travels back to Washington often to work on classified psychological studies. Richard “Rick” Doty, a longtime friend and colleague of Jim, was an investigator assigned the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI)

a reply to: Kevin2024

Thanks Kev (GREAT to see you here) truly eye-opening response and clear up a lot for me. Namely that the belief in the paranormal aspects are genuine as far as some of those involved are.

I don't believe any of these people are 'bad' people, far from it. I did, however, wonder if there was a genuine belief in things like the UAP Group.

A good example is the fact that UAP Treatment group experiencers immunological systems give a history of their encounters that they can't fake. With John Boroughs that makes perfect sense.

Chris Bledsoe, however, didn't pass most of the MUFON lie detector test they showed in a documentary on his experiences. So how can we believe his immunology differs so greatly from his test?

Then there is the fact it was MUFON that did the test...

Finally, if we look at what I suspect is the process:

- UAP experiencers, RV'ers and antenna people predict the next landing / event / encounter
- A STAR team is dispatched to collect materials
- Materials are stored in Vegas



Why on earth is there a need to collect metals and alloys from a process that does not work by conventional methods. Put another way "what does a plasma sentience need with a space ship" ?

You aren't going to discover new methods of propulsion, matter transport, shielding or anything else. So why go from the paranormal to the nuts an bolts angle?

I can't figure that out.

a reply to: The GUT

I've dropped you a DM regarding this. Hopefully you can help.

originally posted by: ctj83
a reply to: Kevin2024

You aren't going to discover new methods of propulsion, matter transport, shielding or anything else. So why go from the paranormal to the nuts an bolts angle?

I can't figure that out.

I can't figure that out.

That makes two of us.

Possibilities:

1) Mr. Bigelow really believes in physical craft, even though there has never been one. If he's got the checkbook,
it doesn't matter whether such craft exist or not. I've known research scientists.. they often become cab drivers..
if they don't get tenure, then they are starving, and would probably take research grants from Mr. Hankey the Christmas Poo.

2) Purported "angel hairs" and such "materialized metals" supposedly fade away for the most part. So nothing to find really. (quite convenient, no?).

3) what would a plasma sentience need with a ship? I wrote a little article on that.. shielding.. that's why historically "spirits" come out at night.. that's when they can use the mass of the earth to shield them from harsh solar rays..
why they live underground.... coherent energy lifeforms are probably fragile.. another reason they might possess a person, in a pinch, would be for shielding.. at least from UV radiation...

did you ever notice how those golden age craft never had engines or life support? that would be unnecessary if those "craft" were mostly for shielding purposes.

I'm not going to focus on "Plasma mania' in this incarnation at ATS. there are other things to discuss.

but ultimately I keep repeating the mantra,

"Why does Uncle Sam want us to believe in UFOs?"

the more we let ourselves get distracted from that question, the more we lose our key focus.

If nothing else, the credulous rubes need to be thrown a crash story every few years, to keep them
psychologically victimized on a continuing basis.

Kev

What a breath of fresh air this thread is. It's good to see you deep and critical thinkers converse in a civil manner on such interesting topics.

I've just been catching up on the thread after a day or so, and it's been an incredible read so far. Like a few of the posters in the thread have commented, I too wonder where all this leads with Bigelow and all these nefarious links to old groups made anew. Will anything come of Bigelow's investigations in the long run and with groups like the "Avery" and "NIDS" getting attention, what's in store for us average ATS bystanders who are just looking for answers? Lets just hope that something is outed and the drip, drip, drip, of information and evidence turns in a flood without the rubbish mixed in!

a reply to: mirageman

Awesome thread MM, I doth my cap to you sir.
The one thing I find interesting is where George knap falls into all of this as well. He is a self confessed friend and confidant of Bigelow and his stories and reveals since the late 80s are all connected to this and Bigelow, either directly or indirectly.

I don't know what role he plays but would like to hear your thoughts on this.

a reply to: The GUT


Here’s a quote from your link which says the government knows little about UFO’s according to Bishop...
www.realityuncovered.net...

Greg Bishop, who chronicled the Bennewitz-Doty saga in his 2005 book Project Beta, and has himself been contacted separately by four intelligence professionals, sums up the feelings of many, saying “There is no denying a concern with the UFO subject in the corridors of the Pentagon and the halls of our government. How much these people actually know is the subject of hot debate.” Recently, however, in private statements to bloggers and to this writer, some clarity is coming to the issues of “who knows what” and “what is their agenda?” Research for this article points to these answers: they know little or nothing about UFOs, and their agendas differ

I really believe the government has been dumbfounded by the UFOs and won’t admit it—so the best thing to do is deny it.

So maybe there is nothing to disclose but their ignorance.

What this new NYT confession is about, or the new leniency about UFOs we don’t know yet

a reply to: Willtell

It's been my opinion for some time, that it's non-us researchers who know more about UAP's
than anyone in America. The french in particular seem open-minded. Of course what
came out of the Brits MoD is utterly fascinating/useful. Did we ever discover who wrote
their stuff? I don't think we did.

America is the home of deception; America has toppled governments around the world since
WW II.

I also think that "real" knowledge of UAP's is in short supply anywhere.

I"m saying UAP, as "UFO" has become so muddied with deception, that the term is
fairly useless, except in the most generic sense.

originally posted by: The GUT
Jim elaborates that “viral memes,”[see below] in which disturbed people seek validation in numbers on the web, is, or should be, a growing public health concern. That said, Jim nonetheless has a real interest in UFO’s, and seemingly with good reason.

This is actually really forward thinking for the time it was written. Especially since the election, we can see examples of what he meant by public health concern. If he comes back for another AMA sometime, I'd love to hear his thoughts on this stuff, and how it could be managed.

Also I should mention another aspect of the medical groups work that was covered in the Phenomena book...Kit actually talks about drug development. Drugs that could suppress the weird experiences, or amplify them. I found that really interesting. I'll quote from my copy:

For example, Joe McMoneagle is part of their research program; he provided them with a sample of his DNA, and the team is considering how to access the DNA of his deceased twin sister, who was also allegedly a remote viewer, says Nolan. “Whether real, perceived, or illusion, there appears to be a genetic determinant.” And while Dr. Green maintains that his patients’ injuries may have come from high energy devices or their components, both Green and Nolan think there is more to it than that. “Some people [seem to] repeatedly attract the phenomena or the experiences,” Nolan says. “They act like an antenna or are like lighthouses in the dark.” For some it might be a blessing, Nolan speculates. They are comfortable with these ocurrences and make it work in their lives (think Uri Geller, Joe McMoneagle, Angela Dellafiora, and Paul Smith). For others it’s a curse (for example, Green’s injured patients and the Livermore nuclear scientists who quit their jobs). Nolan makes clear that his ideas are only hypotheses, but he explains that the raw data from which his hypotheses have been drawn are clear. “It’s important to remember DNA does not invent stories,” he says. Gene mapping and advanced single-cell analysis techniques reveal biological truths. “Imagine if you could understand how this all connects to mentation [i.e., mental activity],” Nolan says of claimed UAP encounters and ESP or PK abilities. “You could make a drug to block [the genetic aspect] for those who don’t want it—or even enhance it for others.” In effect, Kit Green and Garry Nolan are searching for a gene for paranormality. Or, as Green prefers to say, “The genomics of supernormality.”

a reply to: wmd_2008

No problem. I guess it was my misunderstanding.

a reply to: 1ofthe9

I bought the book yesterday, I simply must read it!

Really, I'd love to be tested .. I have ALL the markers.. even ones they don't know
about yet.

But I don't really want a tag stapled into my ear, or a bar-code-chip implanted..
(yes that sounds paranoid.. but if one is a research subject for the government,
these sort of things are certainly possible).

I think ultimately their plan to find the next super RV'er will fail, because even
if they get the genetic/brain markers down, there is a SOCIAL ASPECT of letting
yourself be infected with little esoteric larvae, who then use your body as part
of their life-cycle (or conversely, it's equally possible that you form the ltitle
lifeform like a self-built, internally hosted egregore --- honestly I don't know
which of two possibilities is the one that happens).

In either case, you effectively give yourself Disassociate Identity Disorder
and that has to be managed.. it's very difficult.

however when the lifecycle of the critter is complete, it "leaves you" or conversely,
you get sick of hosting the DID fragment inside of yourself, then it slowly fades
away.. and with it, the "potential super powers".

Been, there, done that, got the T-short.

But I doubt that even the crazies researching this are open-minded enough
to ponder these possibilities, and thus will make some progress, but will
ultimately fail.

IMHO opinion. Opinion.

Kev

originally posted by: ctj83
a reply to: Kevin2024






Why on earth is there a need to collect metals and alloys from a process that does not work by conventional methods. Put another way "what does a plasma sentience need with a space ship" ?

You aren't going to discover new methods of propulsion, matter transport, shielding or anything else. So why go from the paranormal to the nuts an bolts angle?

I can't figure that out.

Imho - There is no such thing as a "plasma sentience." It's all smoke an mirrors cooked-up by the ET's.

a reply to: pigsy2400

The one thing I find interesting is where George Knapp falls into all of this as well. He is a self confessed friend and confidant of Bigelow and his stories and reveals since the late 80s are all connected to this and Bigelow, either directly or indirectly.

Well despite the conspiracy theory linked here I doubt George is owned by Bob BIgelow. He has links to him yes. But he has his own career at KLAS TV along with his weekend host role on C2C AM. I dare say he keeps his ear to the ground and occasionally can pull in a favour or two from Bob Bigelow. Maybe that has worked the other way on occasions as well. But that's how life often works.

I have actually had a few questions answered by George when he popped up quietly in a thread for an hour or two a while back. Very few people knew he was even here!!! I think he is the best host on C2C and enjoy his shows. George knows how to extract information out of the guests without making them uncomfortable. He loves a good UFO story as much as many of us here. But I don't think he's ever lost his integrity by supporting false stories like some 'personalities' in the field I could mention.

I may be a little biased because I like him. So if anyone shares a different opinion let us know.

originally posted by: Erno86

originally posted by: ctj83
a reply to: Kevin2024






Why on earth is there a need to collect metals and alloys from a process that does not work by conventional methods. Put another way "what does a plasma sentience need with a space ship" ?

You aren't going to discover new methods of propulsion, matter transport, shielding or anything else. So why go from the paranormal to the nuts an bolts angle?

I can't figure that out.

Imho - There is no such thing as a "plasma sentience." It's all smoke an mirrors cooked-up by the ET's.

Well Erno, that's a fascinating theory.

Please explain the master plan, in detail, that these alien BEM's have, to spread this disinformation about
plasma intelligences, to the approximately 10 people in the world who truly think it's plausible.

thank you sir.

a reply to: mirageman

I like him too.

A person can be a little "connected" without being a shadowy dude smoking cigarettes.

Kev

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: pigsy2400

The one thing I find interesting is where George Knapp falls into all of this as well. He is a self confessed friend and confidant of Bigelow and his stories and reveals since the late 80s are all connected to this and Bigelow, either directly or indirectly.

Well despite the conspiracy theory linked here I doubt George is owned by Bob BIgelow. He has links to him yes. But he has his own career at KLAS TV along with his weekend host role on C2C AM. I dare say he keeps his ear to the ground and occasionally can pull in a favour or two from Bob Bigelow. Maybe that has worked the other way on occasions as well. But that's how life often works.

I have actually had a few questions answered by George when he popped up quietly in a thread for an hour or two a while back. Very few people knew he was even here!!! I think he is the best host on C2C and enjoy his shows. George knows how to extract information out of the guests without making them uncomfortable. He loves a good UFO story as much as many of us here. But I don't think he's ever lost his integrity by supporting false stories like some 'personalities' in the field I could mention.

I may be a little biased because I like him. So if anyone shares a different opinion let us know.

I guess this is kind of related; but I thought I read somewhere that Linda Moulton Howe and Bigelow were actually an item at one time. Has anyone else heard this?