Missouri Returning to Reason - Rolling back minimum wage

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Uberdoubter

I'm just saying that no job should be paid so little that it's impossible - and therefore pointless having it - to make a living from it. That kind of slavery is better left to robots and machines.

You are right...it is better to put a machine in than to pay more than what a job provides to a company, and they are doing just that.

What is impossible BTW...

Are you saying a person can not survive on 1600 per month?

$1600? That's $3 x 31 days x 17 hours. At $8 I guess it's at least "workable".

I know USA is cheaper than Norway to live in, so maybe $19200 per year will provide - but it does sound like every single moment not spent working or sleeping will be spent figuring out how to not run out of money. Better not have any kids that you plan on putting through college. These kind of jobs used to be for "pocket money for kids and poor people", right? These days it seems like middle class people down on their luck are taking more and more of these away from the poor - because that's all that is left.

(We never hear the story behind all these "Storage Wars" lockers, do we? How stuff gets put into lockers when people lose their homes, and then it gets auctioned out when they can't even pay for that.)

USA is all about winner takes all and gluttony - I find it ridiculous that it's considered "normal" that the head of a (big) company can make 100-600 times the average employee.

Edit:

And what's up with the insane cost of actually going through college? Here in Norway it costs literally next to nothing in comparison. It's as if college is SUPPOSED to be only for the well-offs.

There is a middle ground somewhere between "winner takes all" and Marxism. I guess it's called Scandinavia.

originally posted by: Jiggly
we need to go back to 1950 wage

like 75cents an hour

1955 minimum wage had the purchasing power of about $26/hour today.

originally posted by: seagull
You make your own opportunities, and they're out there. If I fail, it's no ones fault but my own. It certainly won't be Burds fault. He's done, nor will he do, anything to hinder me, or anyone else. In fact, I'd be so bold as to say he'd probably be more than happy to give all sorts of advice, probably good advice.

Some people are going to fail though. Capitalism creates failure. What are we supposed to do with the people who don't make it? As a society we can't simply tell them tough luck and throw them aside, because if we do there's no point in ever taking a risk as we all fail eventually.

The way I see it, ideas like owning a home, financial security, access to education, and the ability to retire are things that need to be available to everyone. But the current economic situation prevents these very things to a bunch of folks.

originally posted by: seagull
Greed is good. Greed is what helped me get up at 6 am, walk to work--rain or shine, hot or cold, work a double shift as often as I could get away with it, walk home again. Could have ridden the bus, but that walk was my personal time. My time for thinking, making plans, etc...

I want a society where people don't have to cut themselves short on sleep (which will kill you earlier), waste an hour on a commute each way per day (that's 3 months in unpaid time by the end of a year), and feel obligated to work double shifts, just to feel like they're making progress in life.

Working a normal schedule should be enough.

I've never understood this idea that it's noble to have a life of hard work and suffering. The point of society, and what all our ancestors have built up is infrastructure and laws to make life easier over time.

Why should I be expected to work those kind of hours just so I can hand the tax man a good percentage of it? Answer me that?

Because some people need assistance in order to become more productive. There's a bunch of reasons, some are in bad circumstances, some are simply less capable and need more help than others.

We're supposed to live in a country where anyone who wants success can have it. Can you honestly say that principal reflects your circumstances? You've been the working poor your entire life and fully expect to be for the remainder of your life. Where is the social mobility there? Your situation says to me that the entire system is screwed up. Why can I walk out of school with a $100k+ job as my very first job, in a field that I'm not even very good at, after not putting in a single hard days work ever in my entire life, and you work near minimum wage for a decade busting your ass?

That's simply a broken system. Somewhere along the line you got screwed over. Either you were taught a useless job skill, your parents let you down and didn't teach you properly, the education system let you down similarly, or there's not enough good jobs to go around and you didn't win the job lottery.

That's the sort of issue we need to fix. The next person to get a losing lottery ticket could be someone you care about.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
Everyone CAN, not everyone DOES.

What's wrong with wanting a society where not everyone has to?

originally posted by: Uberdoubter
(We never hear the story behind all these "Storage Wars" lockers, do we? How stuff gets put into lockers when people lose their homes, and then it gets auctioned out when they can't even pay for that.)

Those shows don't represent reality in the US. They're basically made to appeal to a bunch of hoarders and convince them their junk has a lot of hidden value. It's all about the allure of having hidden treasure among your belongings. Most people who actually deal in that stuff have low margins and are few and far between.

And what's up with the insane cost of actually going through college? Here in Norway it costs literally next to nothing in comparison. It's as if college is SUPPOSED to be only for the well-offs.

It mostly has to do with the removal of a bunch of subsidies to education over the past 30 years. In Norway you're paying those costs too, but it's spread among the entire population in taxes. In the US, only the people who use the system are paying for it. Most tuition isn't actually all that bad either, what generally gets people into trouble is the living expenses while attending college, that actually makes up about 70% of what you'll pay out for an education.

originally posted by: Uberdoubter

$1600? That's $3 x 31 days x 17 hours. At $8 I guess it's at least "workable".

I know USA is cheaper than Norway to live in, so maybe $19200 per year will provide - but it does sound like every single moment not spent working or sleeping will be spent figuring out how to not run out of money. Better not have any kids that you plan on putting through college. These kind of jobs used to be for "pocket money for kids and poor people", right? These days it seems like middle class people down on their luck are taking more and more of these away from the poor - because that's all that is left.

It is workable if you do not have a view that a living wage is one that a person can live on solo. Single living is a luxury throughout the world. In america a person views a living wage one that a single person can live on and that is not correct. 19200 is a starting wage...if you find yourself still making that 10 years after high school there is only one person to blame.

USA is all about winner takes all and gluttony - I find it ridiculous that it's considered "normal" that the head of a (big) company can make 100-600 times the average employee.

I think that is a false narrative outside of the norm. I work for a subsidiary of Boeing, would you say that Boeing with about 130k workers is a large company in America? The Chairman makes about 8 million with stock options on top, and the average wages is 70k+. If the CEO provided me a good job for the next 30 years he has earned his money in my view. Also 80% of America works for small business and the margin between workers and owner is smaller.

And what's up with the insane cost of actually going through college? Here in Norway it costs literally next to nothing in comparison. It's as if college is SUPPOSED to be only for the well-offs.

That is a problem...Colleges are in it to make profit, are in it to make a lot of money for the...dare I say it...liberals that all work there. They will give you some crappy degree with their name on it as long as you are willing to pay, doesn't mean the degree is aligned with anything in the business world...lol

originally posted by: Aazadan
We're supposed to live in a country where anyone who wants success can have it.

Who doesn't want success? Everyone does. The problem is not everyone wants to work for it. Outside of a very small number of lucky individuals born into wealth, anyone who is successful has had to work their ass off for it. Would it be great to have a society where everyone gets what they want without having to work hard for it? Of course. But until Star Trek Replicators are invented, that just isn't reality. Goods don't get produced without people working. Services don't get rendered without people working. I know it sucks, but working for what you want is just the reality of life.

a reply to: burdman30ott6


The reason lies in the fact that government subsidises companies, who do not pay their employees enough. In the end every person should be able to survive from their wages. If people do not have enough money for food, after full-time job, the crime rates would increase significantly, as desperation can cause significant problems.

In basically every European nation, if one works full-time for a month (35-40 hours a week) at minimum wage that person can survive. They can not lavish, but they can pay the rent, utilities, buy food etc. They can cover basic expenses. They have to plan their expenses, although living at that is possible. Also, there is no threat of bankruptcy due to medical bills, if some accident or illness happens. After work, have enough time to socialize, improve themselves so they could get better job. The life is significantly less stressful.

In the end somebody needs to do the minimum wage jobs as well and these people need to survive somehow as well... Minimum wage should not be so high that one can live very comfortably, lavishing, but it should be high enough for one to survive for a month and that is how it is in Europe.

Personally, I have not lived on minimum wage round here. I have obtained four degrees from tax-payer funded universities here (masters in robotics, bachelors in business and psychology) and during the university time government paid me scholarship which was similar or a bit higher than minimum wage and I could survive on it pretty easily, although usually my parents sent me extra money, so I could travel more. I guess this nation would seem like some socialist hell hole for you Government pays via taxes for universal healthcare, universities, public transport, there is 3 years paid mother leave etc etc. Companies are also required to give their employees 3 weeks paid vacation each year. Despite all that, the nation has one of the lowest national debts (about 10% of GDP), is one of the most advanced digital societies, one of the most free societies, entrepreneurship and start up rates are one of the highest in the world etc etc.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

This right there is where you are blinded through looking at the world from your own upbringing. There are people out there who have no choice of the circumstances they are in. We had a period in our lives where we nearly starved through no fault of our own. We came from parents like yours that were too proud to accept handouts and worked themselves really hard.

I know and see that there are people who have few choices and I'm talking about through non-work related disabilities.
We are fairly comfortable and yet I dont go around judging simplifying another mans position in the world. I have not walked in everymans shoes that is on welfare.

Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes

a reply to: daskakik

Because the government wants to keep those out of work from revolting and you seem to be ok with them stealing your money. Other than venting on the net, that is.

You bring up a good point that I wanted to mention to Burdman30ott6, but didn't want to sound too off topic. Why is the rest of the world subsidizing the "successful" engineers like Burdman when they whole of the USA is living like a pariah forcing the world to trade in US Petrodollars?

Lets talk about the Entitlements of the USA reached at the point of a gun on other Nations. Sheesh

originally posted by: Wayfarer

This helps illustrate the problem with liberal ideology in the US where everyone thinks they deserve a kings wage where they can eat what they want, watch what they want, enjoy pastime activities as much as they want, and not have to do anything for it. Heck, my grandfather used to tell me when he was little his parents saved up for a vacation for 10 years, and you better believe everyone enjoyed the heck out of it! That's the America we need to return to.

MAGA!

For sarcasm to work, there has to be something about what you are saying that is wrong. Otherwise, you're just stating the obvious.

originally posted by: MaestroMind
This is the primary reason why it is best to earn relevant educations which are economically viable throughout one's working lifetime so that one does not have to depend on having government gauge your monetary earning potential.

Given the speed of technological change and social dynamics choosing a career is a crap shoot at best. I knew many people that spent a fortune buying Macs when they first came out only to compete against an over saturated market 20 years later when employers could get young people for much cheaper. I apprenticed to learn to hand engrave guns in 1984 and within 10 years pneumatic engraving machines made the same work possible in half the time. Frankly, I don't even know what to tell my grandchildren - college degrees seem to mean little or nothing. About the only given is that society seems to need more healthcare than ever.

a reply to: conscientiousobserver

Poverty is a complicated matter and can't simply be blamed on one or two factors and needs to be handled as such.

I starred your whole post you but the above is what some people fail to grasp and as long as we blinkered with this narrow mindset we are easier to manipulate to be divided against common humanity.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Show me in your constitution where your wealth is predicated on invasion of other countries for resources or the printing of money for bailing out the TBTF Banks, or the US Petrodollar keeping your economy afloat so you can live a semi respectable charmed life after your rulers have skimmed off the cream.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I am totally on your side on this. My parents had my sister when my mom was 18 and dad was a burger slinger. They paid for the delivery themselves - they did NOT take handouts. Then my dad became a cop and they had me two years later when mom was 20. They had insurance then. We didn't have cable (came to our city in 1979), no cell phones, no video games. Oh these poor people! In my city all the poor people have #loads of kids (the earlier the better), iPhones, weaves, fake lashes, knockoff designer purses and double decker strollers with SPEAKERS on them so they can blast their #ty music because they know no one will call them out - oh and not to mention get on the bus with no money - you give a free ride to just one then multiply that by hundreds across the system every day you can see why fares rise - why do I even pay for my pass when some drunk stinking idiot can ride for free?

So damn tired of it.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
...

It is workable if you do not have a view that a living wage is one that a person can live on solo. Single living is a luxury throughout the world. In america a person views a living wage one that a single person can live on and that is not correct. 19200 is a starting wage...if you find yourself still making that 10 years after high school there is only one person to blame.

...

I think that is a false narrative outside of the norm. I work for a subsidiary of Boeing, would you say that Boeing with about 130k workers is a large company in America? The Chairman makes about 8 million with stock options on top, and the average wages is 70k+. If the CEO provided me a good job for the next 30 years he has earned his money in my view. Also 80% of America works for small business and the margin between workers and owner is smaller.

...

With the cost of education, I think a whole lot end up with nothing more than minimum pay for years and years. If you're born into a poor "barely roof over their head" family, it takes some doing getting out of that. These days even former middle class people have to resort to #ty jobs with no pay.

I guess they only have themselves to blame? I'd put quite a bit of blame on the way banks sold way too many loans to way too many people - people who literally had their rug pulled out from underneath them.

You don't have to be stupid and lazy to be poor, no more than being rich means you're smart and hard-working.

70K per year? That's way more than I make - I'm doing similar to the American average, I guess.

Edit:

Fair enough - If the pay of the CEO was split among the 130,000 employees, they would hardly notice any difference.
I just wish they'd play by the same rules - no raise for you? No raise for me neither.

For many people there is just no path towards "$100K and beyond", unless they manage to invent stuff, become the next Hollywood superstar, or do a miraculous amount of kissing the right asses.

I see much in this thread about "how I can't... or how they can't..." and in my job, I hear it all day every day as well. It is nothing but horsecrap excuses. Yes things do happen to people. You adapt and get over it.

Most people do not have the luxury of a residual income stream like patent, song, movie royalties or rental property. So we have to work. McDonalds and Walmart are not your friends here. You need a job that pays overtime. 10-12 hours a day, 5-6 days a week kind of a job. So at $8/hr 60 hrs is $560/wk before taxes. Or about $420/wk take home.

Expenses. Your often largest expense here is housing. That payment has to be $400/month tops. If it is not then you either need a roommate of some sort or more income. Best method is a roommate with income

Utilities. Electric, water, trash, gas, propane, phone, internet, cable, Netflix, all that good stuff needs to be a max of $400. Kiss some things goodbye if you don't have the above roomie/income. (Big secret: I did broadcast in a park on a number of radio shows due to lack of internet and electricity. The truck was running and a power inverter kept the laptop charged as I used a public hotspot.)

Food, transportation, clothing, entertainment. Max target here is $400/mo. In other words, you HAD a car payment unless you are close to the payoff or cannot swing a good used car. Keep in mind that gas, repairs and insurance are part of transportation. So new brakes might mean you are eating red beans and rice all month. As for clothing, just do laundry you can get new shirts later.

The final $400 a month? You save as much as that as you can. Because that is your golden ticket to fixing your situation later. In one year that will be $4800. In ten years, it is $48,000. Like the 2nd Amendment and want to buy some guns? Right there is six brand new in the box good pistols and the ammo to shoot them in one year. Wasteful spending? Yep, but you earned it if that is your thing. Best that you keep it though. Never know when you might need it. Of course $48k MIGHT get you a fixer upper of a house that is livable. Then you would have $800 month free.

Just remember that extra $400 will be a constant temptation towards filling out the other three big expenses. And sometimes you will have to hit it like a new set of tires for the car. That is okay. But try to stay out of it if at all possible.

What did my $4800 go to that first year? I'll be honest, it ended up being $3600 and originally it was to help a friend make a trip. They declined and it then went towards the purchase of a used Mustang that was $7800.

Yeah, I still work 50+ a week M-F. I take the weekends off now. But it is still just $10/hr. But my expenses are also lower than the $1200 model above. Just a simple philosophy that is as old as dirt: live within your means.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Uberdoubter
(We never hear the story behind all these "Storage Wars" lockers, do we? How stuff gets put into lockers when people lose their homes, and then it gets auctioned out when they can't even pay for that.)

...

Those shows don't represent reality in the US. They're basically made to appeal to a bunch of hoarders and convince them their junk has a lot of hidden value. It's all about the allure of having hidden treasure among your belongings. Most people who actually deal in that stuff have low margins and are few and far between.

...

My point was NOT making people believe that their junk is valuable, neither that it makes you rich buying lockers.

The simple point I was trying to make, is that the reason WHY there is this endless amount of lockers going under the hammer, is that people first lose their homes and then they can't afford to pay for the storage of their stuff either.

Guess they're all just lazy, stupid and not hard-working enough?

a reply to: Wayfarer

You are delusional.