Baddogma's Other Meta Cafe- Polite Discussions About Scientific Mysticism and General Weirdness

originally posted by: Anaana
Climate change has meant that all over the world, farmers and growers are having to do things differently and not follow time-honoured traditions.

I think that the most disconcerting thing about "climate change" is the possibility it isnt caused by us. I mean, its not like we would change even if it is, but if it isn't, that starts to tap into a pretty primal part of our neurology.

I'm convinced that the future lies in completely decentralized, automated food production regardless of climate. The benefits are so extreme that I don't think they can be ignored. At the same time.. is it prudent to have a large scale food production system that is "immune" to nuclear winter? Maybe I'm just too cynical.

Time is very much a part of the Universal experience, but time as we have measured, quantified and qualified it, as humans, in an attempt to order our place within time and the Universe, in my opinion, gets in the way of us seeing (or feeling) that universality.

It absolutely does, but at the same time, I think that creates something unique. Maybe even something "special?"

Its like it provides a mechanism and medium for growth, akin to soil, air, water, and light for a plant. Question at that point would be, what is it that is growing. A question that belief systems across the ages have attempted to answer in some way or another.

Its so easy to get wrapped up in thinking that little bubble of perception is not only wholly accurate, but an accurate representation at all. The newest belief system, science (I know that's offensive to some, but.. meh) has some safeguards and guidelines to gain leverage on our innately representative world, but I have come to suspect it might do as much harm as good when it comes to emerging novelty.

Probably an easier topic for me to ramble on about than most, which is saying something! That said, I strongly believe that each of our individual bubbles of reality can be grown and shaped. And just like the mother passing on light cycle information, I think it is passed down like the tune to which we sing our collective song.

Many take that bubble being malleable as a given, but many of our approaches assume and rely on it being static. We know we can "change our minds," of course, but I'm talking about major, fundamental shifts. Typical breathing meditative exercises give a glimpse into it, as well as hallucinogens.. perhaps.

Tea!

S. M. D. H.


Actually, I love tea I just struggle to drink it since my dad passed, as I made him a cup every day I could. It wasn't every day, since I had to carry it about a block, but it was enough to embed some strong, currently very painful associations.

I look forward to the day that I can sip it again in bittersweet reminiscence rather than loss and emptiness.

a reply to: Serdgiam

Oooh. Space-time is a time compilation of frames that averaged out over macroscopic distances (space) looks linear and one direction. A compression would be viewed as a break of causality or as it is called, retrocausality, where the future influences the past post observation.

All one would have to do is figure out how to manipulate the quantum-level sheets that are being compiled in the linear direction and then--time travel? FTL space travel?

Weird because I was reading these earlier today!

futurism.com - A Quick Rundown of the Alcubierre “Warp Drive”
- and -
nextbigfuture.com - NASA Technologist proposes Acceleration Mechanics for New Propellant-less Space Drives.

a reply to: Serdgiam

Everything is a label and fairly inaccurate the second you start giving it "2nd thoughts". "The exception proves the rule"
...
All of that is theoretical musing, proof with maths only proves logical coherence in a way and sadly it's not always applicable to the things I'm interested in. I mean I tried to make consciousness into something that's measured and counted but let's face it: it's impossible.
Which is a bit ...funny I guess because that seems to be the purpose of consciousness: figuring stuff out. But itself remains elusive.

Well my take is still that one day we will be able to see "consciousness"*ltbd flowing and we will see that it's indeed a wave emerging from all animated (in a very low standard interpretation, because as I see it the second something like electricity flows through it it starts processing and gets turned on/alive, but that's a rather extreme pov, especially since people are blissfully unaware that trees and plants, ... All process information=basic consciousness) things.

I am more and more drawn to an pananimistic attitude. Which sadly makes it more and more unlikely that we will ever be able to touch the things which really matter.
We are merely bots of this huge Natural Intelligence which we discovered the second we started exploring our mind.
I am.
Which is why I made this and hope for a lucky charm

"It's a wave!"

Just a quick rant:
I offered my old laptop to someone for 20€, who declined, which in itself is fine, but like ten minutes later she told me she's getting a new one (which is way smaller, with less ram and everything) for 150€ as if I lost out on a great deal.... how can people be so astonishingly stupid? I mean seriously wtf? What? The? F*ck?
I also could take 150 for it, but I mean I was nice.... gawd I hate idiots.

a reply to: Peeple

Its all waaaavvvvveesss, maaaan.

The more I've thought about it, the more ive been led to thinking that limited perception is itself unique and even "powerful."

As in, we create gods at the edge, where our bubble of perception overlaps with "really real" reality. Within that bubble, we have the ability to create truly unique phenomena that might be otherwise impossible if we were to see things exactly as they are.

I think that's what happens with inventions, but feel that it might just have deeper implications as well.

Its like.. that bubble contains all the potential of humankind and it exists as a sort of pocket universe within the world at large. In that respect, it can either be our prison, or the vehicle for our transcendence. Grandiose term, but I think that may be exactly what we are doing with even the most basic tool. We bring something into creation in the universe that is entirely unique.

Its hard to pin down what part consciousness plays in it all, but it seems that it might very well be the core behind it all. I think that we will get there, as a species, but not before we learn to advance ourselves alongside our tools. I don't think we have ever really done that. At a certain point, we just started to get dragged along by the momentum of our own creations; holding on for dear life instead of grabbing the reigns and steering the ship.

Anarchy is the future

a reply to: Serdgiam

I'd like to point out two things: it's not all waves.
And you're absolutely right, we're not in charge. How could we? For the most part we deny it exists.

originally posted by: Peeple

I'd like to point out two things: it's not all waves.

While I'm inclined to agree, it could be argued that anything observed over time can be represented by a wave of some form. Cycles, periods, orbits, growth, etc. Quite cool, really, especially when the only time this seems to consistently come into doubt is at what we perceive to be the edge of physics.

I have several trains of thought on the matter, not the least of which is the possibility of waves being an intrinsic property of anything residing in spacetime. Something is "all waves," but I'm definitely not convinced everything is "all waves."

What exemptions can you think of?

Personally, I also like the explicit reference to duality. I tend to think that "everything" is a system that is dualistic, nondualistic, both, and neither.

Really, though, I was just channeling my inner hippie

a reply to: Serdgiam

Who'd have thought that one day I will be promoting "surfer philosophy"...
What's not a wave is pretty simple: neutrinos. Are there other things which are particles with next to no "radiation? For most things maybe the wave is only good for interaction with the environment?

Consciousness is my topic of the weekend I'm working on putting my thoughts into a thread, stay tuned.
Hippy

...Sometimes I feel like we're reinventing Hinduism....

originally posted by: Peeple
Who'd have thought that one day I will be promoting "surfer philosophy"...
What's not a wave is pretty simple: neutrinos. Are there other things which are particles with next to no "radiation?

Hard to say if thats perspective or not.. Neutrinos have oscillation and spin.

It may even sound pedantic, but "looked" at the right way in 3d space, with the right variables (viewed head on with small enough magnitude), and a wave could be seen as a point.

Photons may fit into the exemptions as well, but all these things are hovering around the limits of observable behavior. Whether that is scale or speed, I'm hard pressed to think of any exemption that isn't at that edge. I feel like that's meaningful.

For most things maybe the wave is only good for interaction with the environment?

Something similar to that is exactly where I go with it.. Its like.. all these things may not have wave properties themselves, but once they start moving and colliding (even weakly) waveforms seem inescapable.

As it stands, there is no unified theory about that. Each little event and behavior has its own math. I'm not convinced that's necessary, but it will take some thinkin' to make that step in understanding.

Consciousness is my topic of the weekend I'm working on putting my thoughts into a thread, stay tuned.

Please link here or send a PM when its done Not that you are necessarily looking for my participation, but I enjoy reading your thoughts.
Hippy

...Sometimes I feel like we're reinventing Hinduism....

I think there is a helluva lot of truth to that statement. Who is to say that even without modern equipment, access to the same information isn't possible. It'd be seen and interpreted through that culture, but I believe we are all looking at the same thing differently.

Its almost like we need to redefine "it" in our own cultural context, but we can use previous cultures as signposts of sorts. "The roads we travel and the landscapes in which they lay are everlasting, but the view is everchanging."

Weird stuff

a reply to: Serdgiam

i have to think about that and meanwhile,
have a song



Let's face it I only hang out here in the café to wait for TEOTWAWKIAIFF, but he's a big city mouse now I heard with alcoholic waterbottles and f*cking for humanity?
It's Saturday hurray am I serious?



My place is so close to the Olympic Park in Munich I'm currently listening to Robbie Williams.
Just fyi, wtf etc

a reply to: Peeple

Definitely dig that song, very Tommy Emmanuel-esque. Thanks for posting it!

I think I'm here because in my mind, this thread and its predecessor embody what ATS is supposed to be. I really wish they would reinstate the ability to remove forums from the Recent feed. I also wouldn't mind an ignore feature, but that's blasphemy 'round 'ere.

I don't know what "alcoholic waterbottles and f*cking for humanity" is, but it sounds intriguing

I just keep checking if my stuff has shipped yet. Items from China seem to ship within minutes (even if the overall trip takes longer). Sure wish the other locations were so on the ball..

a reply to: Serdgiam

What happened to "embrace the waiting"? My new laptop passed the performance test so far. It's good it arrived.

I honestly come to the cafe because if there's one place where we get enough hints and clues together to see the pattern emerge, it will be here.
And I will steal it and put my name on it.

In combination with the whole forum. I wouldn't want it to change one bit, it's perfect. A perfect tiny window into the beyond mirror of the human soul, with enough anonymity and still the possibility to build a "brand". Earn reputation. It's a microcosm of how people would think and talk if they had less social control and a community without the pc boundaries.
What do you think most people here would be laughed at if their everyday contacts knew they entertain conspiracies and the possibility of UFOs?
But we know we're on to something. We just can't pin down what it is yet. A place to ask questions and rant and not like in reality where we tied ourselves down to parrot what we are supposed to think.
I love ATS.




And I just went over someones twitter where he posted a picture of "his lady" which made me feel incredible good, because she's ugly. The lexicon has a picture of her under washed up, uptight, ugly bitch. And she looks old. I also know she's stupid from her egg hunt comment. So: haha. Good he doesn't deserve to end up happy with some one medium or up, he deserves the drained old witch he has now. Ha!
(Treasure fe people go treasure hunting, or bargains... there are tons of examples where the object in the hunt is inanimate.) But he's obviously also stupid. Poor guy doesn't even notice, blind deaf and dumb as he is...

a reply to: Peeple

I'm still embracing it I just embrace the awkward impatience rather than some sort of "spiritually advanced" stoicism. I enjoy the process, the last thing I'd ever want to be is patient.

I think ATS is just as it should be, since it is the way it is. I'd be lying if I said I didn't miss the balance of topics from a decade ago though, and the "ideal ATS" I hold in my mind is certainly not what we see.

Over the years, I've seen it move slowly away from what you describe as well. Ideally (there's that damn word again!), it retains a portion of that identity. I think it will, but many interactions are little, or no different, than the ones happening at any typical social gathering. Just.. without the depth of in-person interaction, but with all the vitriol. I'd rather it not become just another pedestrian message board.

That said, a big part of me suspects its more likely something in the world at large that is seeping through rather than being a problem with the board specifically. Also, it seems that "strange" topics are becoming a bit more acceptable socially, "irl."

Something tells me there's more to the story with egg hunt lady.. I will say people rarely seem to get what they "deserve," for good or ill. I think I've said it before, but I think its just as likely karma works in reverse from the feel-good version. Where, the "better" a person is, the worse things go for them, in some sort of cosmic balance or cause and effect. Sometimes though, just the right things happen to just the right people.

a reply to: Serdgiam

I'm just working through stuff. The laboratory is never free from dirty socks.
Just as with ATS behind the mask they wear for their lifes, people are angry, scared and wounded. Frustrated. At least Germans are and from what I observed British and Americans are too. Some with varying extent, 50% are fed up.

That's why we're talking so much about social issues in between, not because some grand theory of the one enemy, almighty controlling everything, but we seem to be a bunch of empaths sensing the "disturbance in the force". If we wouldn't have swallowed some kind of hook, none of us would be here, even the super sceptics and the super stubborn, at some point they entertained the "something's not right" attitude.
It's all connected. It's dysfunctional. Out of frequency, balance, whathaveyou. The stories don't add up.
Like blaming the consumer for the waste and the practices of the cheap goods producers is a schizophrenic stunt. Not many can stand that without other logical connections to suffer damage in the web that is "consciousness/me/ego/..."
Especially in a capitalistic environment. Which is an unnatural state of living for many people anyways, always the me that is only cool if it's a child, always wanting and consuming and searching for a way to push the limits.
Many people just aren't that way. They don't like it, but got no lobby. The discussion in the US really is hierarchy vs equality. They clash because the humanistic "liberal" attitude which is taught in higher education doesn't mix well with a violent survival of the fittest/richest/... environment.

If there were a god judging us I think that would be exactly where he'd draw the line of good/evil: do you want to be part of a group of equals, do you dominate everyone around you? ...or try to. Because people wanting to be alpha naturally need a beta gamma, what have you. That's the conflict. And our problem in spirituality, society, politics, geopolitics, science, psychological, etc....

a reply to: Peeple

I think you touched on a lot of interesting stuff there. Though, obviously, the Illuminati is real, large and in charge.

Sometimes I wonder if this.. "discontent" is something that has been an underlying thrum for thousands of years, but has only recently started seeping through to the surface due to immense changes in how we communicate.

At the same time, I have to wonder if long exposure to technology might disrupt evolution itself. We no longer have to adapt, we just build a tool that does it for us. Over generations, I really do wonder if that will be detrimental to our species. If evolution is a road, we have stopped at a gas station and never got going again.

I also tend to think that governments "of the people" are on their way out, to be replaced by corporations. Once corps are the only ones with standing armies.. I'm not sure there is a way back from that.

One of the tenets of our cultural story, dominant versus submissive, seems to be reaching a fever pitch. For anarchy to succeed, it takes a certain level of maturity and responsibility. I think it'll also require a shift in perception at some pretty primal levels. With all the mindful*ckery that has gone on with social engineering, I suspect the only way out of that hole is using the same tool(s) that dug it.

However, what I believe happened there is that they designed a perceived immunity into the programming to facilitate the manipulation. What wasn't expected is that this created a Backdoor in anyone who thought they were immune, including the programmers themselves. And there, the mind virus turned from something that was used as a targeted tool, like an arrow towards a target, into a pathogen that can infect anyone who is exposed.

In our hunt to get people to buy stuff with marketing, the implications run deep with modern massive data sets and efficacy beyond just selling an iPod.

All that said, I really don't agree with the current notion that a MindWar to replace typical "hot wars" is a good trade. It may indeed lessen violent conflict, but the consequences might be dire.

While I don't particularly agree, maybe the notion that we can advance in the fundamental social arenas is flawed. Maybe we can put different masks and costumes on things, but we can't change what lies underneath. At a minimum, it hasnt changed for countless generations, maybe ever.. but I do believe its possible. We just need to use our tools to leverage the shift instead of solely using them to take ourselves out of the equation (consciously or not).

I think the dominant/submissive paradigm has its place, but also think that technology can enable growth of new, more optimal systems. The constant problem is participation, or lack thereof. No idea how to change that at a grassroots level.

So, the beat marches on.. right into mass scale corporate wars and the dissolution of "ancient, outdated" government paradigms.

Should be.. err.. fun.. Maybe I'm just being cynical though.

a reply to: Serdgiam

The illuminati are a dream, an idealistic wet dream of a society full of self responsible healthy individuals bordering saints, from people who spent lots of their time working on discipline and all the gentleman traits. I don't think it ever was or will be practical for the masses.
What we need is to cut the crap, we look at our fellow humans as if they're all wild animals, or holy and both doesn't work, game theory is too much predator, religion too far from our dirty sinful reality. Or a channel for it. Point is the only way to proceed is honesty. Brutal, naked honesty. A truth so shocking and freeing at the same time, one that touches the core, lifts us up and shows us our place.
I don't believe in hierarchy but I believe in competence. That's a major shift. "Knowing more" is what should rank you up, not "sits around the longest time and we didn't know what else to do with him so the promotion happened". People actually being allowed to work according to their talents, not what the machinery needs.
It's totally not true that the hard jobs wouldn't get done then.
We just have fundamental issues with social status and all that.
With ourselves. Reality. Without the truth we're doomed anyways.
Corporations still would need a planet and we're bound to destroy it before such a change could happen.

Just my thoughts of course.

a reply to: Peeple

Given my personal interactions with them, I'd have to say the modern Illuminati is far, far removed from their origins. Along the line somewhere, they must have come to the same realization as yourself.

I think "knowing more" is good, but not particularly useful to anyone if it isn't applied beyond that individual's mind. It also doesn't account for those individuals who have natural talent, but might have a complete lack of knowledge.

Regardless of those nitpicks, I think it all comes down to the same thing: proper incentive.

I think it would also be immensely effective to place value on items that actually have inherent real world value rather than solely focusing on a purchasing power proxy. That's a bit more abstract though, and in a properly incentivized paradigm, may emerge naturally.

As I've "lamented" before, we basically have a focus on a score that doesn't directly relate to anything of actual value beyond the fact it can purchase items, services, etc. that do have real, direct value. The way we have it, it tends to actually stifle the creation and advancement of those items and services in order to achieve a new "high score."

Its even gone so far that many discussions are completely relegated to whether or not to throw money at something instead of talking about the actual situation and actions in play. Like some kind of strange auction where the only item of consequence is currency and all else is relegated to some sort of illusory side effect, if it's considered at all.

originally posted by: Serdgiam

Its even gone so far that many discussions are completely relegated to whether or not to throw money at something instead of talking about the actual situation and actions in play. Like some kind of strange auction where the only item of consequence is currency and all else is relegated to some sort of illusory side effect, if it's considered at all.

Wow, style points and true, great stuff.
And can be transitioned to many situations. Or "talents" we try to sell.
As I was typing it I knew the "know more" would get me in trouble, but was hoping you see it as one example of a variety of skills.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Serdgiam

Let's face it I only hang out here in the café to wait for TEOTWAWKIAIFF, but he's a big city mouse now I heard with alcoholic waterbottles and f*cking for humanity?
It's Saturday hurray am I serious?

Bwaaaahhhhaaaahhhhaaaaa! Thanks for the laugh!!

**Hi-five**

It was the d@mn Tour de France that got me all backwards. That and I have been training a new guy while trying to get my mandatory junk done. Work flies by when you actually do it. Who would have thunk?

Last Friday, took a half-day off. Forgot phone at home. Saturday it was low charge so left it at home again.

Not much to update on the woo side or anything. Just your garden variety synchronicity stuff.

I did find Chuck Palahniuk's graphic novel Fight Club 2. YAY! I also noticed I am a couple books of his behind, so bought one. I walked around the city in the hot weather and enjoyed my day. Even talked to the tourists at the watering bottle until there were too many strange mice surrounding me. I then slunk home to read by myself while brushing my hair.

It was nice to just hang out, watch some bike racing, eat some famer market salad (fresh, organic) and just chillax. No family demands, no friends popping in, no phone, just sunshine, hefeweizen, and people watching. Three days of that and back to work. I need a vacation from my stay-cation!

Hope Munich is finding you beautiful! How's your summer going?

eta - Geez, I think I'm a page or two back!

a reply to: Serdgiam

Not even an ignore, how about a check-box that hides the entire thread or forum? Or maybe on MyATS, you can see 4, 5 forums that you can vote on to see. Like when at Amazon you can select several models to compare against each other.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Serdgiam

It's all connected. It's dysfunctional. Out of frequency, balance, whathaveyou. The stories don't add up.

times 100!

There is a "meanness" to the energy too. Like the adults have turned their backs and all the little kids start pinching each other. Then it starts to escalate to further violence.

Peace is only for the dead and the dying - New Model Army (on my ipod as I write this!), Peace is Only...

The story does not add up. Clever marketing does not lead to this *waves hands*. That nasty energy is coming from somewhere. The "where" is the thing you are not supposed to ask about or talk about. Hunter S Thompson was looking into the banking scandal that turned into something even nastier. It was such a horror he put a bullet in his skull. THAT is where that evil energy is coming from. RATS has a bunch of threads about the subject. It is vast and pernicious. It is there giving us bad vibes for an energy we don't want or need. That is screwing everything up. IMO.

Look at the stories over the past week. Teens laugh as disabled man drowns, chainsaw attack, man shoots boss, etc. That is a behavioral sink stuff showing around the edges. I don't know if it will erupt. I don't know if there will be a trigger event or just a full on freak out. I don't know if it will be isolated or widespread.

Or I could be slightly paranoid. But it starts when basic niceties go out the window. That is why I hold doors for people, say "thank you" when app0ropriate, give money out when I can. Those little touches of humanity do mean something.

- TEOT steps down from the soap box -