Transgender Boy Wins in First Round of Girls Wrestling Tournament

originally posted by: veracity

originally posted by: Xenogears

originally posted by: veracity
this transboy wants to compete with the boys, but a texas law keeps him from doing so...it is the texas lawmakers fault.

Here's the thing, If he can take anabolic steroids, even if limited to a normal boy's range. Then other girls should be allowed to take anabolic steroids to compete, even if limited to a boy's range.

It isn't fair to allow solely him to do so, and if it is against the rules this is special treatment.

No...what needs to happen is that he should be allowed to compete as a boy.

Could be, but I hear if he tried that at things like chess he would not fare so well.

But he should be allowed to try as a boy physically. Would be interesting to see if hormones alone can allow a female body to match the top male bodies.

a reply to: veracity

The problem is even with competing with boys, the normal range of testosterone for men is not really defined well.. it ranges from 300 ng/dl to over 1000 ng/dl for 19 and up males. That's a huge range, He could be competing on testosterone therapy and maintaining testosterone in the normal range and maintain it at peak levels constant where natural males can not, testosterone levels very constantly with various factors like diet, circadian rhythm, training stressors etc. with therapy one can maintain a constant peak level. Allowing them to train harder and recover faster.

a reply to: Xenogears

You gesture at dozens of studies and dismiss them by saying "politically correct"?

Did you even read one of them?

Thanks for the chat; none of that seems to be about this topic.

Those of you who are against Mack being able to compete in sports at all ... a quick question.


Mack has to go to the bathroom; which bathroom should Mack use?

originally posted by: swimmer15
a reply to: veracity

The problem is even with competing with boys, the normal range of testosterone for men is not really defined well.. it ranges from 300 ng/dl to over 1000 ng/dl for 19 and up males. That's a huge range, He could be competing on testosterone therapy and maintaining testosterone in the normal range and maintain it at peak levels constant where natural males can not, testosterone levels very constantly with various factors like diet, circadian rhythm, training stressors etc. with therapy one can maintain a constant peak level. Allowing them to train harder and recover faster.

I think they could make it so it is at 50% of male peak, or at best matches patterns of peak male testosterone release. Though either of these would be problematic.

That's without taking into account that testosterone receptors in the body vary among the population, and some are better at responding to a certain level of testosterone.

originally posted by: swimmer15
a reply to: veracity

The problem is even with competing with boys, the normal range of testosterone for men is not really defined well.. it ranges from 300 ng/dl to over 1000 ng/dl for 19 and up males. That's a huge range, He could be competing on testosterone therapy and maintaining testosterone in the normal range and maintain it at peak levels constant where natural males can not, testosterone levels very constantly with various factors like diet, circadian rhythm, training stressors etc. with therapy one can maintain a constant peak level. Allowing them to train harder and recover faster.

I honestly do not have an answer to your point about operating at peak levels. That might be a valid point.

But I do think it would be worth noting that women who have had hysterectomies who also need hormone replacement therapy (or transwomen, post-menopausal women, etc) often retain a monthly cycle. Meaning they have something akin to PMS regardless of whether or not they have a functioning uterus.

Maybe there is a similar cycle that is maintained by transmen that matches that of a cisgender man? It would be worth looking up.

originally posted by: swimmer15
a reply to: veracity

The problem is even with competing with boys, the normal range of testosterone for men is not really defined well.. it ranges from 300 ng/dl to over 1000 ng/dl for 19 and up males. That's a huge range, He could be competing on testosterone therapy and maintaining testosterone in the normal range and maintain it at peak levels constant where natural males can not, testosterone levels very constantly with various factors like diet, circadian rhythm, training stressors etc. with therapy one can maintain a constant peak level. Allowing them to train harder and recover faster.

so, your argument is...there are so many different testosterone levels for boys and Mack's testosterone level may not be the same as a majority of the boys soooo.....

WHat?

Are we measuring all the boys to make sure they're all at the same level of testosterone?

If not, why not?

If differing levels of testosterone makes sport unfair ... surely we should start testing for that.

Right?

originally posted by: Abysha

How are all of you missing this? This is a problem created by conservatives.

It is interesting that up until now it has been their choice, now you suggest we limit it. Ok, I can agree, but that has not been the party line on this...

Case in point. If I go into a female bathroom I would be arrested, so should a transgender male be arrested too by your logic, but that is not the way it is, now is it... It is all still their choice...

originally posted by: Gryphon66

If differing levels of testosterone makes sport unfair ... surely we should start testing for that.

Right?

Yep, need to inject a little progesterone into some of those neanderthal look a likes to equal it all out, or even better start young boys on hormone treatments if they haven't hit puberty by a set age...got to all be fair with the hormones...

a reply to: Xtrozero

if a transgender Male to Female went into a girls restroom, the women in the bathroom would never know that she was a male at birth, this is a non-issue

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Gryphon66

If differing levels of testosterone makes sport unfair ... surely we should start testing for that.

Right?

Yep, need to inject a little progesterone into some of those neanderthal look a likes to equal it all out, or even better start young boys on hormone treatments if they haven't hit puberty by a set age...got to all be fair with the hormones...

\

That seems invasive and unnecessary to me.

And you seem to avoid the question: IF testosterone levels are the determinant as some have argued here for success in sport, i.e. testosterone is a performance enhancer, then shouldn't boys be tested to make sure they have the same levels?

If not, the one's that are higher have the advantage ... according to the logic here ... right?

originally posted by: Xenogears

originally posted by: swimmer15
a reply to: veracity

The problem is even with competing with boys, the normal range of testosterone for men is not really defined well.. it ranges from 300 ng/dl to over 1000 ng/dl for 19 and up males. That's a huge range, He could be competing on testosterone therapy and maintaining testosterone in the normal range and maintain it at peak levels constant where natural males can not, testosterone levels very constantly with various factors like diet, circadian rhythm, training stressors etc. with therapy one can maintain a constant peak level. Allowing them to train harder and recover faster.

I think they could make it so it is at 50% of male peak, or at best matches patterns of peak male testosterone release. Though either of these would be problematic.

That's without taking into account that testosterone receptors in the body vary among the population, and some are better at responding to a certain level of testosterone.

As has already been mentioned dozens of times by me, the UFC already tried your idea.

It ruined the sport for several years.

a reply to: veracity

No my argument is testosterone is banned for a reason, and there is no matrix whatsoever that can keep competition fair by saying some get to use it while others can not. So we either allow it to be used or we don't. No wishy washy bs reasoning that says some reasons are justified while some are not.

a reply to: seasonal

Steroids basically. Born with male genes too, which makes development different.

Should not be competing, he/she fails the criteria. Done.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Beowolfs

Those with Asthma can and do take steroids.. But their not "Anabolic" steroids.
Big difference.

Both medical though...

Is your argument really coming down to making asthma inhalers equal to anabolic steroids?

In case you're serious.. An asthma inhaler makes a person feel hyperactive. Anabolic steroids can allow you to put on 30 lbs of muscle and add 200 lbs to your bench press in 2 months.

That's why they should be treated differently. That's why anabolic steroids should not be allowed, period. And if you have a medical condition that requires them then you should be required to either compete sick or not compete at all.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Xenogears

You gesture at dozens of studies and dismiss them by saying "politically correct"?

Did you even read one of them? You're fronting for an agenda.

Thanks for the chat; none of that seems to be about this topic.

I've heard of some research coming to politically incorrect conclusions. But for example the difference between the sexes, I've not verified it, but several sources suggest IQ tests across adults are not usually performed, the tests tend to be limited to children near the ages were girls experience a growth spurt due to earlier sexual development than boys, purposely to skew results to be politically correct.

Similar happens elsewhere, to suggest that something that is not visibly obvious such as average height or average skin color varies and is shared by fairly large groups is often debated. Heck as I suggested some feminists argue against men's average strength advantage.

But thing is not only facial traits, average height, skin color defined by genetics, but so too is intelligence. As we begin to unravel the genetics of intelligence, and the physiological factors behind intelligence, and as whole genome tests become common, it will be impossible to deny if any differences are found and shared. You can't deny that certain groups share certain facial characteristics, you can't deny that certain groups share certain physical characteristics such as certain sexual organs, you can't deny that average height varies and that certain groups have lower average height than others.

Would you claim that the average height of the Japanese is higher than the average height of the Americans? Some would say that same applies to intelligence and some groups have higher average intelligence than other groups, if such is true, it will become evident and undeniable with genetic studies once we have the genetics of intelligence known.

Which bathroom should Mack use again?

Did I hear an answer to that question?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Abysha

How are all of you missing this? This is a problem created by conservatives.

It is interesting that up until now it has been their choice, now you suggest we limit it. Ok, I can agree, but that has not been the party line on this...

Case in point. If I go into a female bathroom I would be arrested, so should a transgender male be arrested too by your logic, but that is not the way it is, now is it... It is all still their choice...

Perhaps end the separate bathrooms and make it mixed bathrooms only?

originally posted by: swimmer15
a reply to: veracity

No my argument is testosterone is banned for a reason, and there is no matrix whatsoever that can keep competition fair by saying some get to use it while others can not. So we either allow it to be used or we don't. No wishy washy bs reasoning that says some reasons are justified while some are not.

having testosterones being regulated by a doctor is not wishy washy