Did Paul Invent Christianity?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

no he represented Ephesus. Like Paul represented the churches when they sent him with a gift to Jerusalem.

You aren't making sense, nor are you answering the questions I asked.
TELL ME, TELL EVERYONE what Jesus taught. That's it. Bottom line.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

remember the Works of the law are burdensome and that is heavy, faith in Jesus is light. In a previous age Israel and anyone who wanted to be part of the Kingdom not only had to have faith but also follow the Law of Moses.

Well we've discussed this before... Faith alone is nothing

And "the law" Jesus referred to wasn't the laws Moses gave... IF those were the same laws Jesus would have no need to correct them... or break them for that matter...

Works of Love are "light"

But the context of your verse should always be connected to the verse so that anyone can tell what is being said.

There is no reason to connect those two passages brother... that is not how one should approach scripture...

though such an approach explains a few things about you

I find it amazing that Mallocchino and others think things like the Apostles knew Paul was a false prophet

Actually i believe they did know about Paul... John certainly knew what Paul was up to

Unfortunately, the position Paul held was nothing less then dangerous to anyone who bothered to challenge him...

Being a pharisee, and a roman... could mean death for those who opposed him

I know you have seen he over looked the fact that the twelve Apostles did trust Paul as found in Acts 15,

Acts was written long after the death of most... IF not all of the first followers of Jesus... so *shrug*

In any case your arguments with him have nothing to do with myself

a reply to: Malocchio

Luke never recorded Paul eating meat sacrificed to Idols.

Luke was not the recorder for Paul in 1 Corinthians or Romans where he speaks of meats offered to Idols and eating of meat period. Because of these teaching I can guarantee Paul did not eat that meat. Rmember we are not to have doubtful dispensations Somethings Jesus does no talk about as are many of the subject you deny are scripture because Jesus never taught on it. Now Israel was not to eat meat sacrificed to idols but they did it again and again.

1Cor 8:1 ¶ Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4 ¶ As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7 ¶ Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Seems to me Paul wouldn't eat it.

Roms 14:1 ¶ Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

No where Luke may have penned the letter to the Galatians for Paul and in it he rebukes Peter for eating and living like the Gentiles until the Jews came from James that also tried to bring the Gentiles under the Law of Moses, Peter would then pull away.

Gal 2:11 ¶ But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I have yet to find anywhere in the NT where Paul at Idols meat.

Now most of the things you have twisted the scriptures for are not even taught by Jesus like Christians after the cross eating meat sacrificed to idols but like I said above the Jews were not to and they did it anyway eating the sacrifices they made to their idols ever since they came out of Egypt.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

It doesn't make sense to you because part of your problem is you are not familiar with the word of God.

Many of the things you want me to quote Jesus on are things only Paul taught about to us today. But you do not believe God inspired the teachings of Paul so right there is the rest of your problem.

a reply to: Akragon

And "the law" Jesus referred to wasn't the laws Moses gave... IF those were the same laws Jesus would have no need to correct them... or break them for that matter...

Which is exactly why they killed him....which He knew they were going to do. He entered this material realm and knew it would be His death. He was always cherry picking from the OT...and contradicting the "laws of YHWH". If He WAS YHWH (or God in the flesh)...which many Christians hold to, then WHY did YHWH CHANGE all those ridiculous laws, when He came as Jesus?
Has any Christian noticed that ALL those YHWH deemed "unclean", Jesus reached out to, healed, and touched. Not to mention those He brought back to life.
So, how does Christianity get around that? By, saying Jesus was GOD IN THE FLESH and could change the rules. They also somehow forget that Jesus worshipped His Father. If HE WAS HIS FATHER, then why in the heck would He worship Him??
Another thing, if Jesus was the "answer" to not having to follow the "law", then why in the heck would the law be instated in the first place (I'm talking all 613 of them). I mean, what's the point? Just to show humans how screwed up they were, and punish them for not following it, and kill a bunch of innocent animals to get that point across? Sounds kind of sadistic to me. But hey, what do I know, lol.
Sorry Akragon....the above wasn't directed at you. Just venting a little.
Carry on.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

It doesn't make sense to you because part of your problem is you are not familiar with the word of God.

Many of the things you want me to quote Jesus on are things only Paul taught about to us today. But you do not believe God inspired the teachings of Paul so right there is the rest of your problem.

I'm not familiar with the Word of God?
Ok. Whatever.
So, quote Jesus, Chester. Just Him. You are familiar with the "Word of God" aren't you? Try doing that without using Paul. You can start in the gospels.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I have yet to find anywhere in the NT where Paul at Idols meat.

That's not the point. The POINT is Paul TAUGHT is was Ok to eat idol meat as long as you weren't doing it in front of a "weaker brother". So he basically gave the "green light" to eat meat sacrificed to idols, thus contradicting both JAMES the JUST (Jesus' brother) and JESUS, as well...who condemned it in Revelation. Do YOU know the Word of God? Cause you seem to blank out in your understanding when Paul's speaking.
Like I said, Paul is your "Savior".

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

not a problem... its good to vent

Which is exactly why they killed him....which He knew they were going to do. He entered this material realm and knew it would be His death. He was always cherry picking from the OT...and contradicting the "laws of YHWH". If He WAS YHWH (or God in the flesh)...which many Christians hold to, then WHY did YHWH CHANGE all those ridiculous laws, when He came as Jesus?

Said laws were man made... but made to keep people in line back in those days

Has any Christian noticed that ALL those YHWH deemed "unclean", Jesus reached out to, healed, and touched. Not to mention those He brought back to life.
So, how does Christianity get around that? By, saying Jesus was GOD IN THE FLESH and could change the rules.

Correct...

They also somehow forget that Jesus worshipped His Father. If HE WAS HIS FATHER, then why in the heck would He worship Him??
Another thing, if Jesus was the "answer" to not having to follow the "law", then why in the heck would the law be instated in the first place (I'm talking all 613 of them). I mean, what's the point?

Well IF we take the books of the bible as actual history... people were kinda messed up... i mean we still are but there were really messed up people in OT times

Just to show humans how screwed up they were, and punish them for not following it, and kill a bunch of innocent animals to get that point across? Sounds kind of sadistic to me.

that is something that no Christian can actually get around... I've asked this question many many times... a few have given decent replies... but nothing solid

Said god craves blood... and according to the OT the blood is where the life of the body is found...

The rule was "an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, limb for a limb, and a life for a life".... Thus they had to take a life and give it to this god to cleanse their sins...

The problem with this... and Christianity actually is simple...

One can not place their sins on another... they are their own

this is still being practiced, but now its symbolic... HIS death and blood washes sin away... at least according to Paul who knew the OT better then anyone

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Originally posted by ChesterJohn
The context was they were ashamed of his chains that is he was in prison. They were embarrassed to have their teacher in prison. Men look on the outward but upon the heart. Men will fear being shamed than confess the truth just as these in Asia did turning from Paul because of his chains.
…
…
…
Onesiphorus a man form Asia (Turkey today) was not ashamed while al the others were.

To be fair, that doesn’t really make much logical sense overall…

Surely the “believers” in Ephesus would not reject an Apostle!!! Just based on him wearing chains…seems like a crazy reason for a Christian to reject somebody…Christians are taught to help their fellow man when he’s in trouble etc…so it’s hard to accept they rejected him just based on his chains alone...

Also it would seem more likely that the Church would send one of their representatives to visit Paul, rather than the whole church going; to find out what the situation was and what he was preaching etc…

Plus we don’t know what minister to Paul really meant…maybe he (Onesiphorus) was that one representative that was sent out to speak to Paul. But if he accepted Paul, then the whole church in Ephesus should have accepted him as well.

The problem is, is that the whole story is one side (All from Paul)…more sources are needed to make some kind of conclusion.


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Welcome to the party...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Joecroft

Welcome to the party...

Cheers…

I’m here to Whip A**, and Kick A**, and I really hate Bubble Gum lol

Just kidding…

Sorry I’m late…

Quite a thread you got going here...



- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

late doesn't mean "too late"

Though i am going to have to insist that you watch the video in the OP

I mean... you don't have to... but that is the basis of this thread, so when you have time

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Joecroft

late doesn't mean "too late"

Though i am going to have to insist that you watch the video in the OP

I mean... you don't have to... but that is the basis of this thread, so when you have time

Well if you insists an all lol

Right, I’m all clued up and ready to Jam lol


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Ah thats right...

my mistake

a reply to: ChesterJohn

TextI have yet to find anywhere in the NT where Paul at Idols meat.

Maybe he didn't...though he probably did.

1 Corinthians 10:25-27 (also 1 Cor 8:4-8)

Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."

If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. (1st Corinthians 10:25-27

Romans 14:14-23New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14 I know and am convinced [a]in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then [c]we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats [d]and gives offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have [e]as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.


1 Corinthians 8:4-13New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that [a]there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither [c]the worse if we do not eat, nor [d]the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this [e]liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.



SO....guess Paul just gave the "green light" to eating things sacrificed to idols. Are am I misinterpreting his "flowery language"?


While Jesus said this....

“
Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.


So, you have a choice here, Chester....you either believe Paul's twisting around of the command of Jesus and saying "it's ok as long as you give thanks to God...or it's ok as long as you don't offend a "weaker brother",
WHILE you have Jesus saying...DO NOT DO IT OR IT IS A SIN.
Who are you trusting in?? Jesus or Paul?

Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

I really want to highlight this teaching of Paul....do you even realize what he is saying here? He is basically saying that if YOU APPROVE OF SOMETHING (and that can mean eating meat sacrificed to idol's or "fill in the blank". It's basically an open door for doing WHATEVER one approves of according to his or her's own "conscience.
Hmmmm....how convenient is that.
Oh! But apparently, women speaking in church are not included in that, nor are widows under 60 who need help, nor or men with long hair (which Jesus probably had, since He was a Nazarene), nor women with their head's uncovered.
Not only that, but Paul took a verse out of context from the Torah which say's "Do not muzzle an ox who is treading the grain"...and USED it to support being PAID for spreading the gospel!! When that verse in Deuteronomy has NOTHING TO DO WITH being reimbursed for being an apostle, or teacher, or pastor!!

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!!! Chester.

Oh, but Lord forbid if a woman speaks in church, or has her head uncovered, or a man has long hair, or someone wants to help a widow who's under 60....AND Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
Apparently, Paul thought he could "pick and choose" what you can be condemned for and what you can't.

I enjoy a good laugh at those who through their feeble minds try to debunk Jesus. The fact is that those who know the guy personally, will give anything and all for Him because the #ing guy Jesus has got the power of love. I say #ing to let you know I'm no normal churchy indoctrinated zombie, but a lie wire who communes with the King daily... and so could you. Now or then, on the other side.

Mark 7:14-23

10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. 16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Seems relevant to the whole meat sacrifice to idols idea.

The whole thing about Paul bringing up not eating meat sacrificed to idols in front of weak brothers reminds me about those who smoke the Devil's Lettuce.Is it wrong in itself?Not necessarily.However smoking it among others who have had challenges with moderation could be considered being a negative influence.I feel he was pointing to the treating others as ourselves with due consideration.Like drinking needlessly around alcoholics or offering them drinks when you know they are battling it.

Acts 21:18

James to Paul:

"You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the law [Torah]. They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the goyim to forsake [the law of] Moses, and that you tell not to circumcise their children or observe their customs.

At this point James suggests that Paul take a vow to satisfy the Jews that he will not teach this or that he does not.

Only he does teach the law is a curse ("Curse that is of the Law") and that circumcision should be abandoned ("Christ will profit you nothing (if you get circumcised)") I don't remember Christ teaching any of that but...

Paul submits to the ritual and pays for the other men doing the ritual and is once again told about the dietary laws of blood and strangled meat and idol meat and fornication.

Paul also teaches contrary to the Spirit in that ''an idol is nothing" so it's ok to eat the sacrificial meat.

Earlier in Acts it's mentioned that the Spirit forbid Paul from preaching in Asia. This is because the Spirit was the final authority at the Jerusalem Council and Paul wasn't given exclusive rights to goyim he was prevented from preaching in Asia.

By the Spirit (Acts 16:6).

As soon as Paul's vow is complete (almost) the Jews seize and arrest him and beat him up. He is rescued by Romans and (mock?) arrested and brought before a tribune.

He invokes Caesar at some point and it's off to Rome where he would spend his last days. Nobody knows how he really died but I bet it was naturally.