Why is Tubal Cain revered by Masons?

What causes these awful problems is the imaginations of logic....like that you have a hint of what's real or factual from the past....so I laugh

instead grab truth....imaginations ruin us....that's what causes strife

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
What causes these awful problems is the imaginations of logic....like that you have a hint of what's real or factual from the past....so I laugh

instead grab truth....imaginations ruin us....that's what causes strife

I have a healthy imagination, nothing bordering the psychotic disorder of imaging that I know things that can't be known.

However you wont see me calling anyone my worshipful master...ever.

Or playing dress up, denying reverence is reverence by saying it was a mere mention (out of reverence for achievement) and not out of reverence (though it clearly is and the reason why was given).

Logic escapes some, even myself sometimes, but in general I have a grip on reality and in this case my logic is not flawed.

originally posted by: Muffenstuff
Had I ACTUALLY skirted your ridiculous insinuation that I think reverence=mention, I would not have explained how the villainous ruffians MENTIONED are not REVERED.

How about David? He is mentioned, is he revered as well? The Seafaring Man is mentioned too, maybe he is revered because, you know, he got his name in there.

originally posted by: Muffenstuff
And again in another quote I have proof I didn't "skirt" anything and addressed the question head on.

Sure you did. I asked you several posts back about David, you skirted a reply.

There is so much skirting I think you could open a women's clothing store.

originally posted by: Muffenstuff
Why is it he is revered?

He is not. He's far from being one of the central characters of the fraternity.

a reply to: Logarock
Slightly off-topic: I lived a few miles from the Ziggurat at Ur.

a reply to: Muffenstuff
We are actually quite open and do talk about Freemasonry quite a bit.

Careful about those YouTube videos as many that I've seen are full of errors.

Neither Nimrod or Santa are in the Master Mason degree.

Freemasonry is filled with many virtues. The rituals of Freemasonry are not silly or pointless. Initiatic traditions/rituals are extremely important to human nature and development.

a reply to: StallionDuck
Freemasonry isn't a cult. When you look at the characteristics of a cult, Freemasonry doesn't match them.

Freemasonry is not about deception nor is the "true of the [sic] Masonry" withheld to the "highest of ranks."

I'll stand against any entity that tries to block my path to my God given freedoms.

Then you'll never stand against Freemasonry.

If they're all about world domination, it's probably best they stay in the shadows because no one in their right minds would bring such a thing out in the open.

Freemasonry is not about world domination.

a reply to: Muffenstuff
That's your belief. According to historical timelines, Hammurabi can not have been Hiram Abif.

Nimrod reverence does not exist in Freemasonry.

a reply to: Muffenstuff
This is your opinion. Don't project your opinion on to us or presume to speak for us.

a reply to: Muffenstuff
If you've ever called someone "Mr./Mister? then you've called someone Master. The honorary title of "Worshipful" is simply Old English for "venerable, respectful."

Old geezer? I served as Master of my Lodge, the first time, at the old age of 24. Then again at 27 and 29.

originally posted by: Muffenstuff
I thought that was obvious. But mentioning for the purpose of acknowledging scientific achievements IS reverence.

No, it's not. You shouldn't make conclusions based on an incomplete understanding.

a reply to: KSigMason

///?////

So you're Rosicrucian ?

a reply to: Muffenstuff

Well I am glad we are on the same page about Lilith, I just didn't mention Samael because Semyaza has Aza in his name and something makes me think he is the father of Azazel .

I would go with they are the same but Semyaza was obliterated and turned into the constellation Orion.

1/3 of the stars falling from heaven has a literal meaning behind it, (no idea what) astrotheology is the root of every religion and the only heavenly host to rebel numbered 200 so I can not get on board with the whole fallen angel business as angels have no free will but for some reason the Sons of El/God did.

I believe they were a symbol for the old gods of polytheistic Canaan/Israel who needed to be gotten rid of and the Book of Enoch accomplished that in detail. No more Azazel or Semyaza, they were imprisoned in Sheol and the only God left was TMH.

At first the Sons of God were demigods then they became Igrigori or Watchers and are called fallen angels but they were Sons and Watchers but not Malakh (messengers/angels).

Free will being the difference. Just rambling but I think Satan is a Seraph, and not even a high ranking archangel.

Also Jews refuse to accept the existence of fallen angels for some reason so I think those are the reasons why, an Igrigori isn't technically an angel.

Are you saying Semyaza was obliterated and turned into the constellation Orion as fact or belief?
Where did you get the information?

Regarding star constellations, I am still getting my thoughts together,
but I think stars are the result of green and red lasers that are on the inside of 2 huge upside down levitating diamonds in the sky (not too far above Earth, maybe starting at around 25 miles).
www.livescience.com...
2 Earths, actually (so 4 diamonds total), both Earths combined to make a torus shape.
www.youtube.com...
A flattened object (like a series of lasers) inside a diamond cut a certain way can make the flattened object invisible
www.google.com...
and the blue light from Earth,
mixed with the green light of the lasers,
that would make cyan,
then cyan hitting the red light lasers,
then hitting the black mirror (Firmament),
that could make white light...
I think...
en.m.wikipedia.org...
Holes matching constellations could be cut into the wide part of the diamonds near Earth
The beams coming through those holes at the bottom could be split and all diverted
to one big hole leading through the thin part of the diamond near a black mirror part of Firmament
and after hitting the black mirror
reflected back down to a different beam splitter,
sending them back through the constellation holes as white light (stars)

Anyway, when you say somebody is turned into a constellation,
could that mean they go to live on the inside of a diamond in the sky?

These are just my current thoughts I want to lob into the internet realm, to see if they get shot down
(totally, in part, or not)...
See additional comments from me in this thread, Stars Can't Be Seen From Outer Space:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The Book of Enoch (Jared's son) is where I read the number of 200 rebel angels.
I'm not sure I can cite that as a definitive source for the total number of these rebel angels,
but only who Enoch knew about at that time.

Revelation 5:11 seems to also be referring to these rebel angels too.
And there, their number is cited as more than 100,000,000

"And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;"
~ Revelation 5:11

So what's the 511? Traffic info...

If you are on Yahweh's side, it should be not be surprising if you do not accept the rebel angel narrative,
since Yahweh is probably the leading rebel angel (Samael and Lilith perhaps top figureheads).
(This is just a general use of the word, you, and not pointing at you, Muffenstuff)

I'm not familiar with different kinds of angels, and their rankings.
I don't agree that angel's do not have free will.

I think the general flow goes like this.

1: God is the ruler of angel;
2: angel is the master of God;
3: angel is the ruler of man;
4: man is the master of angel;
5: man is the ruler of God;
6: God is the master of man;
7: the master works in production, and is bound by law;
8: the ruler works in service, and is bound by law;
9: man prays to God;
10: God prays to angel;
11: angel prays to man;
12: God made mankind;
13: mankind is angel;
14: mankind is not man;
15: mankind became man by eating the fruit of reason (knowledge of good and evil);
16: mankind (angel) has not eaten the fruit of reason (knowledge of good and evil);
17: man is cut off from heaven and soul;
18: you can do anything you put your mind to (so long as it is within law).

Here is a drawing of the flow...

www.youtube.com...

I think this is generally what the rebellion is all about,
angels who do not want man to be their master.

Genesis 1:28 posits that man should rule Earth.
But certain angels, maybe 100,000,000, plus a few 1000,
think they should rule Earth,
one third of heavenly hosts.

Consider how hard it must have been to create Earth...
And all that hard work, for man to rule it,
and angels only get to rule man,
and have to have man be their master.

And all this dynamic has to be veiled in the background!!!
What about the glory of the angels???

So far I don't think the plan for man to rule Earth has been implemented.
But I'm hopeful it will be a success.
I bet Freemasons report up to these rebel angels.
So much for the glory of the Freemasons...
You think these rebel angels care about any manly fraternity of Freemasons?
I bet these rebel angels are the current rulers of Earth, and I'd rather rebel against that.

originally posted by: InachMarbank
a reply to: Muffenstuff

Well I am glad we are on the same page about Lilith, I just didn't mention Samael because Semyaza has Aza in his name and something makes me think he is the father of Azazel .

I would go with they are the same but Semyaza was obliterated and turned into the constellation Orion.

1/3 of the stars falling from heaven has a literal meaning behind it, (no idea what) astrotheology is the root of every religion and the only heavenly host to rebel numbered 200 so I can not get on board with the whole fallen angel business as angels have no free will but for some reason the Sons of El/God did.

I believe they were a symbol for the old gods of polytheistic Canaan/Israel who needed to be gotten rid of and the Book of Enoch accomplished that in detail. No more Azazel or Semyaza, they were imprisoned in Sheol and the only God left was TMH.

At first the Sons of God were demigods then they became Igrigori or Watchers and are called fallen angels but they were Sons and Watchers but not Malakh (messengers/angels).

Free will being the difference. Just rambling but I think Satan is a Seraph, and not even a high ranking archangel.

Also Jews refuse to accept the existence of fallen angels for some reason so I think those are the reasons why, an Igrigori isn't technically an angel.

Are you saying Semyaza was obliterated and turned into the constellation Orion as fact or belief?
Where did you get the information?

It's in 1 Enoch

Regarding star constellations, I am still getting my thoughts together,
but I think stars are the result of green and red lasers that are on the inside of 2 huge upside down levitating diamonds in the sky (not too far above Earth, maybe starting at around 25 miles).
www.livescience.com...
2 Earths, actually (so 4 diamonds total), both Earths combined to make a torus shape.
www.youtube.com...
A flattened object (like a series of lasers) inside a diamond cut a certain way can make the flattened object invisible
www.google.com...
and the blue light from Earth,
mixed with the green light of the lasers,
that would make cyan,
then cyan hitting the red light lasers,
then hitting the black mirror (Firmament),
that could make white light...
I think...
en.m.wikipedia.org...
Holes matching constellations could be cut into the wide part of the diamonds near Earth
The beams coming through those holes at the bottom could be split and all diverted
to one big hole leading through the thin part of the diamond near a black mirror part of Firmament
and after hitting the black mirror
reflected back down to a different beam splitter,
sending them back through the constellation holes as white light (stars)

Anyway, when you say somebody is turned into a constellation,
could that mean they go to live on the inside of a diamond in the sky?

I just thought of Luci(fer) in the sky...with diamonds. Interesting.

These are just my current thoughts I want to lob into the internet realm, to see if they get shot down
(totally, in part, or not)...
See additional comments from me in this thread, Stars Can't Be Seen From Outer Space:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The Book of Enoch (Jared's son) is where I read the number of 200 rebel angels.
I'm not sure I can cite that as a definitive source for the total number of these rebel angels,
but only who Enoch knew about at that time.

Revelation 5:11 seems to also be referring to these rebel angels too.
And there, their number is cited as more than 100,000,000

"And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;"
~ Revelation 5:11

So what's the 511? Traffic info...

If you are on Yahweh's side, it should be not be surprising if you do not accept the rebel angel narrative,
since Yahweh is probably the leading rebel angel (Samael and Lilith perhaps top figureheads).
(This is just a general use of the word, you, and not pointing at you, Muffenstuff)

I'm not familiar with different kinds of angels, and their rankings.
I don't agree that angel's do not have free will.

I think the general flow goes like this.

1: God is the ruler of angel;
2: angel is the master of God;
3: angel is the ruler of man;
4: man is the master of angel;
5: man is the ruler of God;
6: God is the master of man;
7: the master works in production, and is bound by law;
8: the ruler works in service, and is bound by law;
9: man prays to God;
10: God prays to angel;
11: angel prays to man;
12: God made mankind;
13: mankind is angel;
14: mankind is not man;
15: mankind became man by eating the fruit of reason (knowledge of good and evil);
16: mankind (angel) has not eaten the fruit of reason (knowledge of good and evil);
17: man is cut off from heaven and soul;
18: you can do anything you put your mind to (so long as it is within law).

Here is a drawing of the flow...

www.youtube.com...

I think this is generally what the rebellion is all about,
angels who do not want man to be their master.

Genesis 1:28 posits that man should rule Earth.
But certain angels, maybe 100,000,000, plus a few 1000,
think they should rule Earth,
one third of heavenly hosts.

Consider how hard it must have been to create Earth...
And all that hard work, for man to rule it,
and angels only get to rule man,
and have to have man be their master.

And all this dynamic has to be veiled in the background!!!
What about the glory of the angels???

So far I don't think the plan for man to rule Earth has been implemented.
But I'm hopeful it will be a success.
I bet Freemasons report up to these rebel angels.

They will never admit (or realize) it but probably. Hell they can't even figure out that Hiram Abi(ff) mentioned in the Bible is Hammurabi so how much could they actually know. Outer portico dwellers.

So much for the glory of the Freemasons...
You think these rebel angels care about any manly fraternity of Freemasons?
I bet these rebel angels are the current rulers of Earth, and I'd rather rebel against that.

They have been usurped by B'nai Brith and are subservient to Zionism now.

I prefer to call them (spiritual entities in rule of earth) Archons because angels (Aeons) are good.

To clarify, I don't mean to say that I don't accept the events of Enoch in some allegorical manner but the reason I say no fallen angels exist is because in Genesis a distinction exists between the Sons of El/God called Igrigori or Watchers are technically not angels. Fallen yes, but they were Elohim (God's) and not Malakh (angels, messengers of God) who only come to accomplish the will of the Most High who is not Yahweh the Demiurge or Yaldabaoth. Yaldabaoth and his archons are the malevolent ones who only have power over the willing to follow materialists who want power or the false promise of heaven to the submissive.

a reply to: InachMarbank

Your YouTube link for mentioned IOU PETER.

I thought of the Phoenicians Baal called IAO sometimes used as a transliteration of YHWH with a fourth letter sometimes added.

I am the Alpha and Omega.
IAO.

Also Thomas is called the twin because it's a pun for Tammuz the original Christ, his "twin."

a reply to: KSigMason

I see...Ok.

Although I know you are just defending your group but historical timelines have no use in the Bible because it is essentially historical fiction.

If you can't see how Hiram Abi or as you guys call him Hiram Abiff is Hammurabi then I just don't know what to tell you.

If that wasn't your comment my mistake but someone said that it wasn't so because of historical timelines and I think that is just ridiculous.

Solomon is allegory for Saturn and not a real person so inserting the great Hammurabi into the story is no surprise, it makes Solomon look important and real.

Sargon was the baby in the reed basket set adrift not Moses, so...the Bible is not an accurate account of history at all.

a reply to: Muffenstuff

what are you really looking for ?
are you trying to find gods ?

originally posted by: KSigMason

originally posted by: Muffenstuff
Why is it he is revered?

He is not. He's far from being one of the central characters of the fraternity.

a reply to: Logarock
Slightly off-topic: I lived a few miles from the Ziggurat at Ur.

a reply to: Muffenstuff
We are actually quite open and do talk about Freemasonry quite a bit.

Careful about those YouTube videos as many that I've seen are full of errors.

Neither Nimrod or Santa are in the Master Mason degree.

Freemasonry is filled with many virtues. The rituals of Freemasonry are not silly or pointless. Initiatic traditions/rituals are extremely important to human nature and development.

read: mind control

a reply to: StallionDuck
Freemasonry isn't a cult. When you look at the characteristics of a cult, Freemasonry doesn't match them.

By definition of cult, I agree. Just a fraternity dedicated to order out of chaos aka Hegelian dialectic.

Freemasonry is not about deception nor is the "true of the [sic] Masonry" withheld to the "highest of ranks."

I'll stand against any entity that tries to block my path to my God given freedoms.

Then you'll never stand against Freemasonry.

If they're all about world domination, it's probably best they stay in the shadows because no one in their right minds would bring such a thing out in the open.

Freemasonry is not about world domination.

a reply to: Muffenstuff
That's your belief. According to historical timelines, Hammurabi can not have been Hiram Abif.

Nimrod reverence does not exist in Freemasonry.

That you are aware of.

a reply to: Muffenstuff
This is your opinion. Don't project your opinion on to us or presume to speak for us.

a reply to: Muffenstuff
If you've ever called someone "Mr./Mister? then you've called someone Master. The honorary title of "Worshipful" is simply Old English for "venerable, respectful."

Old geezer? I served as Master of my Lodge, the first time, at the old age of 24. Then again at 27 and 29.

originally posted by: Muffenstuff
I thought that was obvious. But mentioning for the purpose of acknowledging scientific achievements IS reverence.

No, it's not. You shouldn't make conclusions based on an incomplete understanding.

I didn't so non issue. Incomplete understanding is a great soundbyte but not something I am guilty of.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Muffenstuff
Had I ACTUALLY skirted your ridiculous insinuation that I think reverence=mention, I would not have explained how the villainous ruffians MENTIONED are not REVERED.

How about David? He is mentioned, is he revered as well? The Seafaring Man is mentioned too, maybe he is revered because, you know, he got his name in there.

I think you are taking this a bit too personal and while I am entertained I am not impressed with your attitude.

originally posted by: kibric
a reply to: Muffenstuff

what are you really looking for ?
are you trying to find gods ?

I am looking for anything and everything of importance though nothing specific.

I just am fascinated with scripture and the various organizations that base themselves off what began in Egypt and in India and ended up in Rome.

All religions are linked to the stars. I don't know any spirits personally and I am not exactly looking for them. I just can't put down a book and this is a great place to discuss them.

a reply to: Muffenstuff

began in Egypt

everything of importance though nothing specific

i could only say
the electrostatic properties of electrum
has importance

All gods started as men

a reply to: kibric

I don't know science at all but I get that everything is electric somehow. Maybe it is the elusive glue of the Universe and that just hasn't been realized or announced.

I really don't know.

I will agree all gods were men though. Ancestor worship is one way that is a factual statement.

I believe every planet has a consciousness, is sentient and a dwelling place for beings of a higher nature as you progress past the dead planet of Mars. Saturn's hexagon was known to the ancients when no possibility of seeing it with the naked eye existed.

I am just trying to put it all together instead of trusting in the false promise of grace and salvation through faith, a scam if ever.

I prefer knowledge, I just didn't go to college so I don't have knowledge of chemistry or physics. I know that monatomic gold was used by the Egyptian and Hebrew priests and is a sort of holy grail.

That's what the golden calf is about and another passage in Revelation speaks of it.

a reply to: Muffenstuff

I know that monatomic gold was used by the Egyptian and Hebrew priests and is a sort of holy grail.

they didn't use that

I don't know science at all

Science masquerading as magic

a reply to: kibric

I am going to have to disagree with the statement that they didn't use it. A papyrus tells of Akhenaten being an alchemist of sorts and producing this life extending substance that is just now being rediscovered.

Again, Moses was told to turn the golden calf into powder and mix it with liquid and make the culprits drink it who then become intoxicated before the Levites are ordered or volunteer to slaughter them.

a reply to: Muffenstuff

Akhenaten being an alchemist of sorts and producing this life extending substance that is just now being rediscovered.

its not that there wasnt

this life extending substance

they just didn't use monatamic gold

a reply to: kibric

Why do you say that? I believe you are incorrect.

Why do both Genesis and Revelation hint that they did, if they didn't ?

Are you just trying to stunt information flow because it is a sub rosa topic?