Why is Tubal Cain revered by Masons?

a reply to: StallionDuck

You make sense, they are an odd group. Not one (I was told that this site was full of Masons) has offered an explanation but secrecy must be an issue because... nothing from the Masons themselves.

I watched a 3rd degree initiation ritual on YouTube and they had a mysterious Santa Claus looking guy who was there in red Santa clothing with a white beard.

I have no doubt that it is "Nimrod" because he is the original Santa Claus. The whole thing was silly and in interviews people were TRYING to explain the "virtues" of Masonry.

A whole lot of stuttering, uh, um, well...but not one reason why anyone would want to be a Mason in the first place and they seemed coached and uninformed. Pawns of the "brotherhood" painting a pretty picture, but accomplishing only to make them look silly and pointless. You should have seen the costumes. And the whole pageant was just the silliest thing, grown men playing dress up.

a reply to: Muffenstuff

This is just from my own experience by way of a family member...

When I was younger, one of my uncles was invited to join the Masonry. When I asked him about it and why (though he never joined because he decided they were a bunch of crazy cult members) he said that he understood that they invited all of the outstanding, upstanding people of the community to join and support their cause of "making the world a better place". Reading about it over the years, it seems that they do good deeds for communities like hold events for charities and support clubs to help people, children and the like... but it's not until you get to the highest of ranks that you tend to find out the true face of the Masonry. Though, that could be rumor but I wouldn't know for sure.

When it all boils down to it, I don't bother with the whole men's club ideals. A cult is a cult is a cult to me and I'm one of those kinds that tends to walk with my own shadow. Maybe that's the Leo in me? I don't know. I prefer to stay away from clubs. Such things make me feel over crowded. Whether they are good or bad, in the end, I'll stand against any entity that tries to block my path to my God given freedoms. If they're all about world domination, it's probably best they stay in the shadows because no one in their right minds would bring such a thing out in the open. All in all, it probably doesn't matter what their overall goal, even if you could prove their intentions, one man, one town, one city, one state couldn't fight against such power if it truly existed. A country? Maybe, but from the sounds of it, they're in everything and everywhere. But once again, I don't know if I really believe they have that kind of control. I believe the only ones that actually have powers over the world are the world governments and the world banks and those who supply them with the money. That's where the true evil lies.

a reply to: StallionDuck

Indeed. I have enough personalities when I am alone and definitely don't need a whole cult of people who are slowly indoctrinated into... anything .

Christianity is not much different and produces equal weirdness in people. Tubal is just such a non issue in the Abrahamic faiths which makes me wonder of all the character in the Bible to revere they choose him, Nimrod and Hammurabi (and call him Hiram Abiff...really cool name guys!) as well as the Sorcerer of sorcerers Solomon as central to the "brotherhood."

If I join a cult I want women, lots of women, around and don't wish to spend time with old farts wearing aprons and marching to the tune of a "worshipful master."

But I have a chick and I don't need a cult for that.

a reply to: Muffenstuff

Hmmm...

You introduced doubt into my mind,
but in reading the books of Genesis and Enoch,
I'm still unable to reconcile there being 2 Enochs.

The verses from Genesis:

"And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech."

~ Genesis 4:18-19

And if you read the book of Enoch, Enoch references his father Jared and son Methusael on many occassions.

www.forbiddengate.com...

For you to be correct, this suggests these 2 Genesis verses, one right after the other, is referring to 2 different Enochs.
That seems like a stretch to me, and who would intuitively think that?

Instead, I had focused on this word: "KNEW"

For example:

"And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch."
~ Genesis 4:17

"And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD."
~Genesis 4:1

Most Masons should know, Adam did not begat Cain...

So just like Adam KNEW his wife, Cain also, KNEW his wife.

I had read between the lines, that Cain's punishment for killing Abel was castration.
So Cain could not possibly have begotten Enoch, eh?

"And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear."
~Genesis 4:13

Quite a coincidence, this thread is about a person named TUBAL, isn't it?

a reply to: Muffenstuff

Oh oops, I confused myself. I re-read my thread, and am noting the lineage between Genesis 4 and 5

Genesis 4
Cain --> Enoch --> Irad --> Mehujael --> Methusael --> Lamech

Genesis 5
Jared --> Enoch --> Methuselah --> Lamech --> Noah --> Shem

Strike my last post from the record! Actually I'll leave it, just to make me feel stupid...

a reply to: InachMarbank

It's not a big deal, nobody knows about the other Enoch anyway so I don't fault you for not knowing what is not well known.

I know that a YouTube video about the 2 Enoch's exists called Godly Enoch vs Satanic Enoch but I don't trust anyone who uses the word Satanic to describe all things unholy because I know that is not Satan's role in the Bible, just superstition and dogma.

He is actually an angel, a Seraph I THINK, but not fallen in any scriptures of the Canon. In good standing with Yahweh who is not shy about being the source of good AND evil in his own words (Isaiah).

originally posted by: InachMarbank
a reply to: Muffenstuff

Hmmm...

You introduced doubt into my mind,
but in reading the books of Genesis and Enoch,
I'm still unable to reconcile there being 2 Enochs.

The verses from Genesis:

"And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech."

~ Genesis 4:18-19

And if you read the book of Enoch, Enoch references his father Jared and son Methusael on many occassions.

www.forbiddengate.com...

For you to be correct, this suggests these 2 Genesis verses, one right after the other, is referring to 2 different Enochs.
That seems like a stretch to me, and who would intuitively think that?

Instead, I had focused on this word: "KNEW"

For example:

"And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch."
~ Genesis 4:17

The answer lies in Egypt. Pa Hanok or House of Enoch. There were many in the House of Enoch. It's likely an initiatory title for "Wise men."

"And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD."
~Genesis 4:1

Most Masons should know, Adam did not begat Cain...

So just like Adam KNEW his wife, Cain also, KNEW his wife.

I had read between the lines, that Cain's punishment for killing Abel was castration.
So Cain could not possibly have begotten Enoch, eh?

"And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear."
~Genesis 4:13

Quite a coincidence, this thread is about a person named TUBAL, isn't it?

I beg to differ that Adam didn't father Cain and I will tell you why. Even though you seem to have concluded it on your own.

Jewish oral tradition has been that Lilith, first wife of Adam, was the Serpent so could not have, being female, impregnated Eve.

Adam certainly doesn't deny his paternity and I don't recall Cain being half Serpent either.

The offspring of Lilith was Azazel, the so called scapegoat of the day of atonement and a powerful god before being imprisoned.

originally posted by: Muffenstuff
a reply to: InachMarbank

It's not a big deal, nobody knows about the other Enoch anyway so I don't fault you for not knowing what is not well known.

I know that a YouTube video about the 2 Enoch's exists called Godly Enoch vs Satanic Enoch but I don't trust anyone who uses the word Satanic to describe all things unholy because I know that is not Satan's role in the Bible, just superstition and dogma.

He is actually an angel, a Seraph I THINK, but not fallen in any scriptures of the Canon. In good standing with Yahweh who is not shy about being the source of good AND evil in his own words (Isaiah).

The way I understand it... Satan was/is kinda like the prosecuter when you have to go up in front of the judge in court. The book of Enoch told of a different group of angels that did the dirty with women and all of the other really bad things.

There was also some confusion in Enoch between the Jewish books (I forget the name of the books right off) and the bible version. It could simply be a bad mix up on which person was which. The name skipped a generation or something. I forget where I read it. Maybe even wiki. There was a lot of time between when the stories started being told and when they were finally written down.

a reply to: StallionDuck

That's the Orthodox Jewish view of Satan, a prosecutor and tempter. If you resist temptation Satan leaves. Definitely not the source of evil or God's enemy .

Ever wonder exactly who Cain was worried about slaying him when only 3 people existed in the world so far? Now that Abel was dead that is.

a reply to: Muffenstuff

Thanks for the wisdom.

Just like 2 Enochs, we can point to 2 Gods:
the God of heaven;
the God of the earth:

"And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell."
~ Genesis 24:3

a reply to: InachMarbank

Tu ball, no shaft?
Good ole Two-Ball Cain... Seriously though, you aren't meaning to imply that they are the same person? Cain and Tubal Cain?
Also I'm curious about how you inferred that Cain was castrated... Did you get that just from the "greater than i can bear" passage you quoted above? If so, can you elaborate? And if not, can you elaborate?'

originally posted by: InachMarbank
a reply to: Muffenstuff

Thanks for the wisdom.

Just like 2 Enochs, we can point to 2 Gods:
the God of heaven;
the God of the earth:

"And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell."
~ Genesis 24:3

Can it not be read in the following way?: "...swear by the LORD, (who is) the God of heaven, and (also) the God of the earth..."

Otherwise, we have 3 different "people/Gods" being spoken of... Your God of Heaven, God of Earth, and also the LORD. That makes 3, no? Or do you read it as: "...the LORD, (who is) the God of Heaven, and (this other guy) the God of Earth..." ?
So many ways to interpret even the most simple sounding passages... Its amazing what a misplaced, missing, or added comma can do! Even if we learn the original languages used, we still have much to contend with, it seems


Perhaps oral recitation and memorization is the best way to pass down information, simply because then you retain the intended intonation of the words. That's a Lot to memorize though...

originally posted by: InachMarbank
a reply to: Muffenstuff

Thanks for the wisdom.

Just like 2 Enochs, we can point to 2 Gods:
the God of heaven;
the God of the earth:

"And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell."
~ Genesis 24:3

Can it not be read in the following way?: "...swear by the LORD, (who is) the God of heaven, and (also) the God of the earth..."

Otherwise, we have 3 different "people/Gods" being spoken of... Your God of Heaven, God of Earth, and also the LORD. That makes 3, no? Or do you read it as: "...the LORD, (who is) the God of Heaven, and (this other guy) the God of Earth..." ?
So many ways to interpret even the most simple sounding passages... Its amazing what a misplaced, missing, or added comma can do! Even if we learn the original languages used, we still have much to contend with, it seems


Perhaps oral recitation and memorization is the best way to pass down information, simply because then you retain the intended intonation of the words. That's a Lot to memorize though...

originally posted by: InachMarbank
a reply to: Muffenstuff

Thanks for the wisdom.

Just like 2 Enochs, we can point to 2 Gods:
the God of heaven;
the God of the earth:

"And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell."
~ Genesis 24:3

Can it not be read in the following way?: "...swear by the LORD, (who is) the God of heaven, and (also) the God of the earth..."

Otherwise, we have 3 different "people/Gods" being spoken of... Your God of Heaven, God of Earth, and also the LORD. That makes 3, no? Or do you read it as: "...the LORD, (who is) the God of Heaven, and (this other guy) the God of Earth..." ?
So many ways to interpret even the most simple sounding passages... Its amazing what a misplaced, missing, or added comma can do! Even if we learn the original languages used, we still have much to contend with, it seems


Perhaps oral recitation and memorization is the best way to pass down information, simply because then you retain the intended intonation of the words. That's a Lot to memorize though...

The God Of Heaven Wrought Fire And Wind... m.youtube.com...
The God Of The Earth Wrought The Earthquake(s).... Your Father's House.

The Image In Which You Are Made Is But A Banner Called Holy Spirit. Your Father... Who Lives In The Earth...

You Are An Instrument Of War... In That You Place Your Trust.

However... Fire And Wind Is Real And Applies Itself To All Who Walk This Earth.

a reply to: Muffenstuff

I beg to differ that Adam didn't father Cain and I will tell you why. Even though you seem to have concluded it on your own.

Jewish oral tradition has been that Lilith, first wife of Adam, was the Serpent so could not have, being female, impregnated Eve.

Adam certainly doesn't deny his paternity and I don't recall Cain being half Serpent either.

The offspring of Lilith was Azazel, the so called scapegoat of the day of atonement and a powerful god before being imprisoned

I am not too knowledgeable about naming names. I would rather conclude Satan is one third of Heavenly host who chose to abdicate their heavenly responsibilities, to instead rule Earth. And the total of Satan could number into the millions...

But since we seem to be moving in the direction of naming names...

I think Lilith was the "serpent" written of in Genesis chapter 3.
But I also think Samael was Lilith's consort:
en.wikipedia.org...

And I haven't been thoroughly convinced yet, that Samael was not the father of Cain:
en.wikipedia.org...

I also wonder if Samael was the father of Jesus...

I even wonder if the term, Uncle Sam, came from Samael.
In 1775, the name Uncle Sam (or Samael?) was written in the original Yankee Doodle lyrics that mocked the young nation besieging the British at Boston.
en.wikipedia.org...
The date referred to is 1770
(28 years before 1798)
The Boston Massacre
en.wikipedia.org...

Anyhow, these are my current conclusions...
But if you can impress some more wisdom on me, I'd be thankful...

a reply to: 3n19m470

Tu ball, no shaft?
Good ole Two-Ball Cain... Seriously though, you aren't meaning to imply that they are the same person? Cain and Tubal Cain?
Also I'm curious about how you inferred that Cain was castrated... Did you get that just from the "greater than i can bear" passage you quoted above? If so, can you elaborate? And if not, can you elaborate?'

No I'm not meaning to imply Tubal Cain, and Cain are the same person.

I have backed off, somewhat, on the notion that Cain was castrated.

But, unless Muffenstuff can convince me otherwise,
I have still not backed off figuring Cain is the son of Samael and Eve.

Adam knew his wife and she conceived Cain.

Cain knew his wife and she conceived Enoch.

Neither of these verses, according to the KJV translation, at least, use the word begat.

Why couldn't they use the word begat, so frequently used for other men who spread their seed?

I wouldn't say I've backed off entirely.

But I'll leave it as an unmentioned consideration in my thesis, for now... and see how it goes...

a reply to: 3n19m470

Can it not be read in the following way?: "...swear by the LORD, (who is) the God of heaven, and (also) the God of the earth..."

I don't read it that way.
But LORD seems to refer to both of them.
And I would also consider they are both captains of large, generally opposing, teams.

a reply to: Pinocchio

The God Of Heaven Wrought Fire And Wind... m.youtube.com...
The God Of The Earth Wrought The Earthquake(s).... Your Father's House.

The Image In Which You Are Made Is But A Banner Called Holy Spirit. Your Father... Who Lives In The Earth...

You Are An Instrument Of War... In That You Place Your Trust.

However... Fire And Wind Is Real And Applies Itself To All Who Walk This Earth.

Scary stuff...

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious...

a reply to: InachMarbank

Lord=Yahweh/Baal

God=El as in El Elyon God Most High