Revelation 17...???

a reply to: whereislogic

"The first and the last".. IS the Alpha and Omega.

The Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet and Omega is the last letter.

Alpha and Omega is a repeating of the first and the last, it's the exact same thing. If Jesus spoke English to John he would say "I am the A and the Z, the first and the last."

So try again.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: whereislogic

In Revelation 22:16 the Alpha and Omega says "I am Jesus.."

And as an additional detail to my responses already given to this incorrect claim and statement, nowehere does the phrase "I am Jesus" appear in honest translations of Revelation chapter 22 (I already quoted what it says in verse 16; which is also a clear indication to me that Jesus was beginning to speak, not that Jesus was carrying on the conversation; also considering the verses before that especially verse 8 where another reminder is made who is doing the talking in the subsequent verses from 9-15).

...what does the Alpha and Omega says in chapter 1 verse 18 of Revelation?

Nothing. I explained why and who's doing the talking (which is already in the quotation that shouldn't require any further explanation for those looking for answers and not trying to find arguments for their views in the bible). So whatever you said after that is incorrect as well (you answered that question yourself with another claim or statement about what the bible is supposedly saying when I see it saying something else).

How about you answering my 2 simple questions with a choice of yes or no for a change.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Jesus also didn't claim to be "the A and the Z" and just because the Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet doesn't mean that Jesus applied that specific title of "the Alpha and the Omega" to himself when he explained HOW he was the First and the Last concerning another topic that follows right after he says that.

But I'm not going to type all that out cause you clearly are not interested.

And everytime you conflate the terms "the Alpha and the Omega" with "the First and the Last" you're ignoring what I will now quote for the last time:

...At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1) So the evidence points to the conclusion that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies to Almighty God, the Father, not to the Son.

That last conclusion is also based on the points raised before that in that quotation that I now skipped, some of which you haven't touched with a ten-foot pole.

You two realize the only reason you take any of this book seriously is because its between the covers of a book...

Labeled "Holy"

a reply to: whereislogic

So, go to Revelation 1:18, tell me when "the first and the last" died and rose again?

When did that happen?

a reply to: NOTurTypical
I'm still waiting for your answers...

In the meantime, from the earlier linked pdf:

“And he laid his right hand upon me and said: ‘Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one.’ ”( Revelation 1:17b, 18a) In Isaiah 44:6, Jehovah rightly describes his own position as the one and only almighty God, saying: “I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.” * [* = In the original Hebrew at Isaiah 44:6, there is no definite article with the words “first” and “last,” whereas in Jesus’ description of himself in the original Greek at Revelation 1:17, the definite article is found. So, grammatically, Revelation 1:17 indicates a title, whereas Isaiah 44:6 describes Jehovah’s Godship.] When Jesus presents himself by the title “the First and the Last,” he is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God. In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.

Jesus was indeed “the First” human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is “the Last” to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally. Thus, he becomes “the living one . . . living forever and ever.” He enjoys immortality. In this, he is like his immortal Father, who is called “the living God.” (Revelation 7:2; Psalm 42:2) For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is “the resurrection and the life.” (John 11:25) In harmony with this, he says to John: “I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” ( Revelation 1:18b) Jehovah has given him the authority to resurrect the dead. That is why Jesus can say that he has the keys to unlock the gates for those bound by death and Hades (gravedom).—Compare Matthew 16:18.

Highlights From the Book of Revelation:

1:8, 17—To whom do the titles “the Alpha and the Omega” and “the First and the Last” refer? The title “the Alpha and the Omega” applies to Jehovah, stressing that there was no almighty God before him and that there will be none after him. He is “the beginning and the end.” (Rev. 21:6; 22:13) Although Jehovah is referred to as “the first and the last” at Revelation 22:13, in that there is none before or after him, the context in the first chapter of Revelation shows that the title “the First and the Last” there applies to Jesus Christ. He was the first human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life and the last one to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally.—Col. 1:18.

a reply to: whereislogic

You haven't refuted mine, you tried to claim the title Alpha and Omega wasn't the same as the title "the first and the last", but that's exactly what it is, the same title, the Alpha is the first letter in the Greek, the Omega is the last letter. In the OT it's the Aleph and the Tav.

So, moving on. Why in Revelation 22 does the Alpha and Omega voice say "I, Jesus.." and why in Revelation 1:18 does He say "who died and lives again", you need to tell me when Jehovah God died. When was it?

And while you're at it, go back to my post where I showed for every major doctrine sometimes it says the Father did it, sometimes it says the Son did it, sometimes it says the Holy Spirit did it, and lastly sometimes is just says "God" did it.

Look up each verse I posted for yourself, tell me why the scriptures say this.

I'll let you address my last post before I get into the fact that Charles Taze Russell was a 33 degree Freemason and of the Russell Illuminati bloodline. He is buried under an Illuminati pyramid to this day. Russell is one of the 13 Illuminati bloodlines.

Russell Bloodline

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: whereislogic

Why in Revelation 22 does the Alpha and Omega voice say "I, Jesus.."

The Alpha and Omega doesn't say that. Hency a why question assumes that he did. How are these types of questions called again?

and why in Revelation 1:18 does He say "who died and lives again", you need to tell me when Jehovah God died. When was it?

Jehovah God, the Alpha and the Omega, did not say that (unlike your earlier claims about the Alpha and the Omega saying that). And it's impossible for Jehovah God, the Alpha and the Omega, to die making it illogical for him to say that (and he also can't lie, so he wouldn't say that). Hence a when question assumes that he did die. Have you ever heard the question:

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

So, do you disagree?

Can Jehovah, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the Alpha and the Omega, die? Seeing that you're asking when he died... (which would logically lead to the assumption that your answer is yes, but somehow, for some reason, you don't want to spell that out with anything other than a question that is repeated and answered by me already, in my own personal textual format, just the way you like it)

a reply to: whereislogic

The Alpha and Omega doesn't say that. Hency a why question assumes that he did. How are these types of questions called again?

Okay, I guess I need to ask what weird translation of the Bible you're using. Because in Revelation chapter 22 at verse 12 the speaker takes the title of the Alpha and Omega (the first and the last) and then 4 verses later the speaker identifies Himself as "I, Jesus.."

I'm assuming you're using the Received Text from Antioch,. What version are you using?

Here you go whereislogic:

Revelation 22:12-16

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

a reply to: NOTurTypical
The speaker is already identified as "the angel" and "he" in verse 8 and 9. Then again in verse 10, still the same angel saying stuff all the way up to verse 15 (there's no shift in who's saying things until Jesus says "I, Jesus..." in verse 16, THAT's when Jesus starts talking, not before that).

John similarly uses the phrase "I John" in verse 8 to indicate when he's saying something or describing something he has experienced. The "he" in verse 9 is the angel John is speaking about in verse 8. After that, there's no indication someone else is saying anything until Jesus starts talking in verse 16.

One more clue you just quoted, Jehovah, the Alpha and the Omega, is not the root and the offspring of David, unlike Jesus who is. How could the Alpha and the Omega, Jehovah, be the offspring of anyone if he is "the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end"?

a reply to: whereislogic

Lol! No, the angel brought the message to John, what is said in verse 12 is that message the Angel was carrying to John.

And you know this because clearly no Angel is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. That's a direct attribute of God from Isaiah 44. And that message, then goes on to announce Himself as Jesus.

a reply to: NOTurTypical
So I have to just ignore all the clues from verse 8, 9 and 10 as to who is speaking in verse 9-15 compared to verse 16? Or verse 17 for that matter (where "the spirit and the bride keep on saying...")?

Sorry, I can't do that like you, I don't need to fit in my theology. Perhaps you could tell me who is speaking in verse 9? Verse 17? Still the same one speaking and giving the message even though the text says otherwise? John is describing who is saying what (in verse 9, 10, 16, 17, 18 and 20).

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: NOTurTypical
So I have to just ignore all the clues from verse 8, 9 and 10 as to who is speaking in verse 9-15 compared to verse 16? Or verse 17 for that matter (where "the spirit and the bride keep on saying...")?

Sorry, I can't do that like you, I don't need to fit in my theology. Perhaps you could tell me who is speaking in verse 9? Verse 17? Still the same one speaking and giving the message even though the text says otherwise? John is describing who is saying what (in verse 9, 10, 16, 17, 18 and 20).

It is the Angel speaking to John, and the Angel is carrying a message: The Angel repeats the message verbatim, which is what any messenger would do.

a reply to: NOTurTypical
Perhaps the one who posted this comment on the internet is of more use to you then, he certainly has some additional information that I didn't share yet.

"Alpha and Omega" - Rev. 22:13 in Research Forum:

The RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, and NAB (1991 ed.) show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John's words. (The Jerusalem Bible and the NJB show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.)

Then they all show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you must insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian NEB, RSV, NKJV, and NASB Bibles, you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

Remember, "I, John" indicated a new speaker in Revelation.

So Rev. 22:16 - "I, Jesus" also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement ("I am the Alpha and Omega") was made by someone else!

Even the KJV (and NKJV) translators have shown by their use of the word 'his' ('His' in the NKJV) in verse 14 that they didn't mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. ...The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing "His Commandments" (not "My Commandments")! ...

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!)...

Here's another comment about it I spotted in this endless circle that has been done before by others before us:

Let's see you take a stab at answering these questions:

*** Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega..."

*** Rev 1:9 "I John, your brother and partner with you in oppression..."

Are you going to tell me that the "I John...." is John claiming to be the Alpha and Omega?

What about this?

*** Rev 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega..."

*** Rev 22:16 "I Jesus...."

How is this different from Rev 1:9?

a reply to: whereislogic

You're still arguing from the standpoint of JW/Arian worldview. Do you not even care that Charles Taze Russell was a 33 degree Freemason and teaching Gnostic Masonic doctrines about the nature and divinity of Jesus Christ?

That should be astoundingly scary that you're basing your foundation of Christology and theology proper on someone who was a Freemason and of the 13 Illuminati bloodlines. These people are occultists, Luciferians. Jehovah's Witness is a cult man, go look at any of the resource for Christian cults and world religions, just research it for yourself. All cults deny 2 things, that Jesus is God that came in the flesh, and denial of the Triune nature of God.

You need to pray and ask Jesus for a revelation of who He truly is.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

So Unitarians are cultists?

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: NOTurTypical

So Unitarians are cultists?

Yes. They teach a different Jesus.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Ya

but so does Jesus... lol

Does that make him A cultist too?