Revelation 17...???

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: NOTurTypical
Ah but that idea has never been clear theres only theories, and i have my own thoughts on said subject.

The real odd thing is that he would bring up the 'blasphemy against the holy spirit' thing as an argument for the Trinity, since some of the texts about that subject say (not the one that showed up in Mark when I googled it to figure out where that exactly is recorded in the bible, I wonder if that's the only one Trinitarians are pointed towards in their teachings, cause the other ones mention...)

Matthew 12:31, 32

31 “For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things* nor in that to come.

Luke 12:10

10 And everyone who says a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven.

Don't remember who the Son of man is? We've talked about him before in this thread when discussing who said what in Revelation chapter 1 (well, I have at least by quoting what the bible is actually teaching rather than just stating arguments and statements about what the bible supposedly says).

1:13

and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man,+ clothed in a garment that reached down to the feet and wearing a golden sash around his chest.

+ = Daniel 7:13

13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man+ was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One.

+ = Pardon the odd format below, I'm being lazy now:

Matthew 24:30

30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief,+ and they will see the Son of man+ coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.+

Luke 21:27

27 And then they will see the Son of man+ coming in a cloud with power and great glory.+

John 3:13

13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven+ but the one who descended from heaven,+ the Son of man.

Acts 7:56

56 and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man+ standing at God’s right hand.”+

Revelation 14:14

14 Then I saw, and look! a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like a son of man,+ with a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

a reply to: whereislogic

The real odd thing is that when Jesus says He existed in glory with the Father before the world was created you guys think He was a created God.

John 17:5 says:

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

That's a statement declare His eternal existence with the Father. Because in Genesis we know that when the physical universe was created, at the beginning of time, the world was also created at that moment.

Genesis 1:1 says:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Before the universe was created there was no such thing as space and time, the 4th dimension is only a reality of creation. God exists in eternity, therefore the Son was glorified and with the Father in eternity before anything was created, including space and time.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Too bad Genesis 1:1 doesn't say:

In the beginning God created space and time, so that your argument that before the universe was created there was no such thing as space and time would have some merit. I don't take my information from Stephen Hawking* over the bible. (see end of comment)

"In the beginning" is also referring to the subject in the sentence, the beginning of the heavens and the earth. When were the angels created? Why aren't they mentioned in Genesis chapter 1 and 2 (other than that they're already there if you understand the clues or compare the other creation accounts in the bible)?

Eternal is an indication of an amount of time. You need time to be eternal in. If time hasn't always existed, God cannot be eternal (logically and grammatically). But arguing about it is futile, cause Genesis (or anywhere else in the bible) doesn't say that God created time. That ends the discussion for me right there, regardless if someone misinterprets the phrase "In the beginning..." to conflate it with the phrase used in John 1:1 in another context. Newsflash, the same phrase can mean different things in a different context, this is normal for language. Just like the phrase "the first and the last". I could be the first and the last that explains this to you, but I doubt it (or that at this point in time it matters or affects your way of thinking).

The evidence in the bible that Jesus was created by Jehovah "as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago" is quite extensive; including the deliberate translation changes in Proverbs 8:22 (by Trinitarians), changing "created" (or "produced" from the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic manuscripts) to "possessed" (from "possedit" in Jerome's Latin Vulgate); and even adding that definition (possess, own) to the Lexicons. Newton also had quite a bit to say about Jerome's deceptions.

Proverbs 8:22 ("me" is Jesus, as most Trinitarians will admit cause they changed it to "possessed" anyway or otherwise they'll pretend that it isn't certain that it means "created/produced", long live Pontius Pilatus' version of agnosticism! Not...):

New International Version
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

New Living Translation
"The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.

English Standard Version
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.

New American Standard Bible
"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

King James Bible
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago.

International Standard Version
"The LORD made me as he began his planning, before his ancient activity commenced.

NET Bible
The LORD created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"The LORD already possessed me long ago, when his way began, before any of his works.

JPS Tanakh 1917
The LORD made me as the beginning of His way, The first of His works of old.

New American Standard 1977
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.

Jubilee Bible 2000
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

King James 2000 Bible
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

American King James Version
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

American Standard Version
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.

Darby Bible Translation
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

English Revised Version
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Webster's Bible Translation
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

World English Bible
"Yahweh possessed me in the beginning of his work, before his deeds of old.

Young's Literal Translation
Jehovah possessed me -- the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.

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Notice not one of the bible translations on biblehub (which are the most popular ones, see Matthew 7:13,14) gets it completely right, they either combine "The LORD" with some form of created/produced/made or they will say "Jehovah possessed me", or even more confusing and misleading "The Lord Jehovah...". Here's an honest and accurate translation what it really says (not excluding alternate options that aren't misleading), NW:

Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago.

* about Stephen Hawking:

A man may imagine things that are false, but he can only understand things that are true, for if the things be false, the apprehension of them is not understanding. - Isaac Newton

I doubt even Stephen Hawking himself would be able to explain how time had a beginning to me so that I would understand it. He might have better luck with space, but I'm not sure I want to spend my time on that.

a reply to: whereislogic

"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

This conforms with the creation account that is found in the Book of Jubilees, that was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls, and therefore, gives us a very good idea of the Jewish thought and culture before the Christian Era.

And the angel of the presence spake to Moses according to the word of the Lord, saying: Write the complete history of the creation, how in six days the Lord God finished all His works and all that He created, and kept Sabbath on the seventh day and hallowed it for all ages, and appointed it as a sign for all His works.

For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide , and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of his heart.

And thereupon we saw His works, and praised Him, and lauded before Him on account of all His works; for seven great works did He create on the first day.
www.pseudepigrapha.com...

According to Jewish tradition, ALL SPIRITS, including Jesus', the angels' and yours and mine, were created on the 1st day.

a reply to: whereislogic

Genesis 1 doesn't have to say it, Einstein confirmed that there is no distinction between space and time 14 different ways to 10 decimal places. This is Physics. Time is a physical thing, it's the 4th dimension. Time was created when the universe was created, which is Genesis 1:1. Before the universe and Earth were created there was no such thing as the time domain.

God bless CT Russell's little heart, but when he dreamed up a brand new faith Einstein hadn't yet discovered the nature of time or the theory of relativity. Our universe was created as a subset of a much larger reality, the other 6 dimensions we cannot directly see. Time only exists here in our "reality", so when Jesus declares He existed and shared glory with the Father before the foundation of the world, that means from eternity. He had no beginning as the Son, He only incarnated as a man.

I doubt even Stephen Hawking himself would be able to explain how time had a beginning to me so that I would understand it. He might have better luck with space, but I'm not sure I want to spend my time on that.

They aren't two different things, that's what the discovery of relativity was. That there is no distinction between space and time. Physicists call it "spacetime". It's the 4th dimension.

a reply to: windword

According to Jewish tradition, ALL SPIRITS, including Jesus', the angels' and yours and mine, were created on the 1st day.

You have a problem then, was Jesus lying when He said He was with the Father and shared His glory before the foundation of the world? Genesis 1:1 says the Earth and universe on day one.

a reply to: windword
Does it mention anywhere who is the "firstborn of all creation" like Colossians 1:15 when talking about Jesus (the first created being, or as Proverbs 8:22 says "The earliest of his achievements of long ago" or the way the NLT interprets it " before he created anything else.", which is obvious from the beginning of that sentence and the verses that come after that but not exactly what it says at the end of the sentence in the Hebrew):

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

The question in this video at 1:27:56 is also quite interesting to ponder on when studying Jewish or Islamic sources for that matter. Can I retract my earlier question or point out that I'm less interested in you thinking about that one than the one in the video? (which is almost the same but directed differently)

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Genesis 1 doesn't have to say it, Einstein confirmed that there is no distinction between space and time 14 different ways to 10 decimal places. This is Physics.

Genesis isn't physics, not by a long shot!

He had no beginning as the Son, He only incarnated as a man.

I thought Jesus was "The Word"? The Word wasn't until it was spoken. Therefore, The Word had a beginning. The Word, or the LOGOS represents all that has been created, all matter, therefore, The Word was created, regardless of what the Gospel of John says. That's just the way it is.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Then why does Proverbs 8:22 say that he was created/produced/made by Jehovah and Colossians 1:15 say that he was "OF all creation"?

a reply to: whereislogic

Eternal is an indication of an amount of time.

No, eternity is the absence of time. It's the domain of our 10 dimension reality where time is nonexistent.

a reply to: whereislogic

I'll answer you with a question, does the Bible say that David is a firstborn son? Yes or no?

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Then why does Proverbs 8:22 say that he was created/produced/made by Jehovah and Colossians 1:15 say that he was "OF all creation"?

Because His flesh was formed in Mary's womb, same as every other person ever made. Christ was an exception, God didn't give Jesus a new soul/spirit, the Son of God put on human flesh.

a reply to: NOTurTypical
You've already given your views about the word "firstborn", no need to go through that again. I didn't ask you about that. But don't expect me to keep answering all your questions if you dodge almost every simple question I've asked that didn't leave open the door for a twisting game.

Here's another question for which I'm still waiting for an answer while you keep asking your questions, most of which I've already answered.

Can "Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Exodus 3:15), the Alpha and the Omega, die?

I wonder why you avoid responding to what Proverbs 8:22 clearly says. Might it be that the evidence is very inconvenient or uncomfortable to you regarding what the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic manuscripts all agree on (a good reason not to watch the video with that evidence or respond to it, or want others to see it) except the biased Trinitarian Jerome's Latin Vulgate which is a mighty big bread crumb on the trail of historic demonic betrayal and the greatest conspiracy that is hardly ever discussed in detail on ATS or anywhere else where the victims of Babylon the Great, the beast she's riding and "the God of this system of things" and "Ruler of this system of things" flock.

He's got the Whole World (in his hands) (video, song, bible quotations used above)]

Some more clues as to the behaviour of those who are described in Revelation chapter 17 (and the related texts about the same or similar subjects; I felt it was necessary to post the below because I used the word "demonic" in my last comment, but wanted to post something about it anyway):

Man of Lawlessness: Insight, Volume 2

An expression used by the apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 2:2, 3 in warning of the great anti-Christian apostasy that would develop before “the day of Jehovah.” The Greek word for “apostasy” here used, a·po·sta·siʹa, denotes more than a mere falling away, an indifferent sliding back. It means a defection, a revolt, a planned, deliberate rebellion. In ancient papyrus documents a·po·sta·siʹa was used politically of rebels.

A Religious Revolt. This rebellion, however, is not a political one. It is a religious one, a revolt against Jehovah God and Jesus Christ and therefore against the Christian congregation.

Foretold. Other forecasts of this apostasy were made by the apostles Paul and Peter both verbally and in writing, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself warned of its coming. In his illustration of the wheat and the weeds (Mt 13), Jesus said that the Devil would sow “weeds,” imitation Christians, “sons of the wicked one,” among the “wheat,” the “sons of the kingdom.” These would exist until the conclusion of the system of things, when they would be identified and ‘burned up.’

Paul warned the Christian overseers of Ephesus that after his going away “oppressive wolves” would enter in among true Christians and would not treat the flock with tenderness but would try to draw away “the disciples” after themselves (not just making disciples for themselves but trying to draw away the disciples, Christ’s disciples). (Ac 20:29, 30) He wrote, at 1 Timothy 4:1-3: “However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron [feelingless, seared, so that they do not feel any twinges of conscience because of hypocritically speaking lies]; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving.”

Paul later wrote to Timothy that “there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth.”—2Ti 4:3, 4.
...
A composite “man.” The “man” of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 is, therefore, not an individual, but a composite “man,” a collective group, as the foregoing scriptures show, and this “man” was to continue after the apostles’ death and exist down until the time of the Lord’s presence.

Treason against God. The “lawlessness” that this composite apostate “man” commits is lawlessness against Jehovah God the Universal Sovereign. This “man” is guilty of treason. He is called “the son of destruction,” as was Judas Iscariot, the traitor who betrayed the Lord Jesus Christ and who was instrumental in bringing about his death. He, like Judas, is to be annihilated, sent into extinction forever. This “man” is not “Babylon the Great,” who also fights against God, for she is a woman, a harlot. However, since he carries on a religious rebellion against God, he is evidently a part of mystic Babylon.—Joh 17:12; Re 17:3, 5.

“The man of lawlessness” sets himself in opposition to God and is therefore a “satan,” which means “resister.” And, indeed, his “presence is according to the operation of Satan.” (2Th 2:9) In the days of the apostle Paul, there was “mystery,” or a religious secret, about the identity of this “man of lawlessness.” To this day mystery shrouds his identity in the minds of many persons, because his wickedness is practiced under the guise of godly devotion. (2Th 2:7) By his lying teachings contrary to or superseding, as it were, the law of God, “the man of lawlessness” sets himself up over Jehovah God and other ‘gods,’ mighty ones of the earth, and also against God’s holy ones, true spiritual brothers of Jesus Christ. (Compare 2Pe 2:10-13.) Since he is a hypocrite, a false teacher claiming to be Christian, he “sits down in the temple of The God,” that is, what such false teachers claim to be that temple.—2Th 2:4.
...
Destroyed. This composite, hypocritical “man of lawlessness” is to be done away with by the Lord Jesus “by the spirit of his mouth” and brought to nothing “by the manifestation of his presence.” The annihilation of this wicked opposer of God will be visible, concrete proof that the Lord Jesus Christ is sitting and acting as Judge. He will not judge according to his own standards, hence the destruction “by the spirit of his mouth” evidently means in expression of Jehovah’s judgment against this wicked class of persons.—2Th 2:8; compare Re 19:21, as to “the long sword . . . which sword proceeded out of his mouth.”

You might have noticed a mention of that sword when I was quoting from Revelation chapter 1:16. I still left out a lot of details from the link.

a reply to: whereislogic

I didn't dodge it, I specifically addressed it with a question of my own to prove a point. I did that specifically because in Hebrew culture not only is one born in order called "firstborn", but they have a Hebraism as well for the greatest born, despite birth order. A "Hebraism" is an idea or figure of speech unique to the Jews and their culture. There are many examples of people who weren't the oldest child being called "firstborn", David is just one example. The Bible says David is firstborn, he was king of Israel. But we know from the text that David was the youngest son of Jesse, he was not the firstborn in chronological order.

Ignoring this fact will lead to weird ideas, which Jesus being the firstborn in a physical sense is silly. He was not born first out of everything created, even angels are not born, they are spirits.

a reply to: whereislogic

You have no clue who Mystery Babylon or the Beast of Revelation is. Tell me one verse you can find where Jesus is coming back to war with nations where a western nation is listed. Just one, I can show you every one listed and it's a Muslim nation today.

Joel 3 - Tyre and Gaza (Hamas and Hezbollah)
Psalm 82
Isaiah 63 - Edom
Isaiah 19
Habakkuk 3 - Timan (Saudi Arabia)
Isaiah 10:31 - Lebanon
Zechariah 9

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Yes. If the biblical Jesus claimed to have been in existence before the first day of creation, then YES, he lied. That is, unless he contended that all of us were in existence before the first day of creation.

a reply to: windword

Theres quite a few passages in the bible that confirm the notion of pre-existence before incarnation...

Guess it depends on IF one believes what is written

a reply to: NOTurTypical
I asked you why he was called "OF all creation" (Col. 1:15? As well as made/created/produced by Jehovah (Proverbs 8:22)?

I did not ask you what you think "firstborn" means or anything else about "firstborn". I'm not going to play your distraction game (which I already responded to as well before and also included in my comment to windword in that debate for those curious).

I also asked you:

Can "Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Exodus 3:15), the Alpha and the Omega, die?

When were the angels created? Unless you believe they aren't (which I never imagined you would, but I guess you might prefer that discussion)? Why aren't they mentioned in Genesis chapter 1 and 2 (other than that they're already there if you understand the clues or compare the other creation accounts in the bible)?

And probably a bunch of other stuff that won't get answered as you pick the questions that are often rhetorical or more easily answered with confusing or distracting arguments to draw attention away from what a logical correct honest answer to the question would mean for your views and philosophies/ideas.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: windword

Theres quite a few passages in the bible that confirm the notion of pre-existence before incarnation...

Guess it depends on IF one believes what is written

What is written, what we're discussing, is the Jewish tradition that was taught, not necessarily what is truth. When Plato hypothesized about the concept of the LOGOS, a mediator between God and his creation, I'm fairly certain that he never imagined the Christian church of today! LOL