Revelation 17...???

a reply to: NOTurTypical

After the white throne judgment and after the Earth and universe are destroyed and re-created the new Jerusalem comes from heaven to Earth.

The Earth AND the universe

Did you just up the stakes?

If the whole universe needs to be destroyed and recreated because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, I have a bunch of new questions!

a reply to: Akragon

thats why he abandoned Christianity... After being a pastor, going through seminary... and preaching for years

He never left it because he speaks against it now ...His problem to begin with may have been that he never really believed it . The amazed part would be imo that all of the text's fragments and extra biblical literature would be enough to restore it back to the originals , but he does concede that they are not far off the mark from the originals to begin with . the # 90% which is what it is a a impossible 100% that is not possible so a 95% might be realistic because of the errors that don't really amount to much anyway ....man is not perfect and never was .It shows up in every thing he puts his hands on ...

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Funny how thats the first thing Christians always say when someone leaves the religion... He never actually believed

What a load... lol

He was a minister... that says more then enough

a reply to: the2ofusr1

He never left it because he speaks against it now ...His problem to begin with may have been that he never really believed it .

Or, maybe he can't reconcile the betrayal, that being the deliberate perpetuation of a lie, by those most trusted.

a reply to: Akragon

Just because someone puts on the garb of Christianity doesn't meant they truly believe .He might be a true apostate ,but he might have to make a distinction to the meaning of what that really is . I have heard confessions of past pastors confessing that they had never really believed what they were teaching from the get go so it's not a standard response from Christians . If he was then he became a apostate . If he never was then he was a lier ....take your pick .

a reply to: windword

Or, maybe he can't reconcile the betrayal, that being the deliberate perpetuation of a lie, by those most trusted.

Maybe he thought there was more money writing against the hand that fed him for those many years .Sometimes even a traitor can be convinced to turn ....Maybe it the money ,but it sure is not the fame from his peers .

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: whereislogic

Yeah, I quoted it, but I was wanting a better explanation other than just “God put it in their hearts” to do it. I wanted people to think a little bit deeper as to the reasons why…and it’s also connected to my other questions, that I've asked throughout this thread…So there’s nothing odd about it at all…

Well, maybe "odd" wasn't the right description as to what was puzzling to me, it was more like I wasn't sure how much more into it you wanted to go (I now gave another reason why, God judging Babylon the Great for the things false religion has done, a tiny tip of that iceberg is in my commentary in another thread in this subforum, not really want to repeat it too often; but some of it is also in my own threads on ATS and my comments here have also given some clues as to what Babylon the Great is responsible for, there's a lot of bloodshed on her hands, Revelation itself describes this as well including the judgement of Babylon the Great by Jehovah).

originally posted by: Joecroft

According to “true Christianity” people who don’t accept the Trinity are generally considered to not be “true Christians”…

According to some (perhaps many) Trinitarians within Christendom*, not "true Christianity". (* = the religions that claim to be Christian). This argument or way of thinking lay at the foundation of the Roman Emperor instituting the dealth penalty for those who denied the doctrine of the Trinity (a death penalty that was enforced till many centuries after the Roman Empire had already been officially destroyed). This is part of the bloodshed that was caused by Babylon the Great (torture was also involved; and note that both Catholics and Protestants had a hand in this).

Assuming you believe in this extract above to be true, then you appear to suggesting that Christians have been deceived, but that you somehow are following the right version…how so…?

Well that's a long story, try reading my comments on ATS if you're really curious. My own threads have the most evidence and reasons why I think many who refer to themselves as "Christians" have been deceived and are therefore erronuously doing so while still being part of Babylon the Great (or their way of thinking is shaped by it and not God's word: the bible). Their intentions of being "Christians" may be very sincere (allthough I've also run across plenty of evidence to show the other type, the hypocrites, who are not sincere; for example those who lie on purpose and are incorrigible when you point out how to recognize a particular lie or deception). I could point out the bible verses where Jesus or others in the bible are describing this situation but perhaps that's going too far off-topic in this thread.

You appear to be “Christian” (apologies if I’ve got that wrong) so according to you which Christian denomination is the true one…?

My opinion is not going to do you any good. But you can draw your own conclusions from the facts that I'm trying to share with you, you can verify every historical fact mentioned in my commentary on ATS for example regarding the Trinity and Trinitarian beliefs, doctrines, teachings and philosophies (you may choose your own sources, but sources are often already included, from encyclopedias to dictionaries to archeological finds and history books or historical documentation).

Regarding the Trinity, try for example:
Three 16th-Century Truth Seekers—What Did They Find?

Regarding the myth of the immortal soul (as well as the myth of literal Hellfire, the Trinity and 3 or 4 other myths; but nobody ever responded to any of the other myths in that thread so not much detail on the others yet):
One myth leads to another

More on the trinity in:
this comment (and the comments after it)

Regarding my phrase "how much more into it you wanted to go", from the earlier linked pdf (book, page 258,259, the 10 kings are discussed on page 254,255):

Carrying Out God’s Thought

How does Jehovah execute this judgment? This may be illustrated by Jehovah’s action against his apostate people in ancient times, concerning whom he said: “In the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen horrible things, committing adultery and walking in falsehood; and they have strengthened the hands of evildoers in order that they should not return, each one from his own badness. To me all of them have become like Sodom, and the inhabitants of her like Gomorrah.” (Jeremiah 23:14) In 607 B.C.E., Jehovah used Nebuchadnezzar to ‘strip off the garments, take away the beautiful articles, and leave naked and nude’ that spiritually adulterous city. (Ezekiel 23:4, 26, 29) Jerusalem of that time was a pattern of Christendom today, and as John saw in earlier visions, Jehovah will administer to Christendom and the rest of false religion a similar punishment.
The desolated, uninhabited condition of Jerusalem after 607 B.C.E. shows what religious Christendom will look like after being stripped of her wealth and shamefully exposed. And the rest of Babylon the Great will fare no better.

Again Jehovah uses human rulers in executing judgment. “For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished.” ( Revelation 17:17) What is God’s “thought”? To arrange for the executioners of Babylon the Great to band together, in order to destroy her completely. Of course, the rulers’ motive in attacking her will be to carry out their own “one thought.” They will feel that it is in their nationalistic interests to turn upon the great harlot. They may come to view the continued existence of organized religion within their boundaries as a threat to their sovereignty. But Jehovah will actually be maneuvering matters; they will carry out his thought by destroying his age-old, adulterous enemy at one stroke! —Compare Jeremiah 7:8-11, 34.

Yes, the nations will use the scarlet-colored wild beast, the United Nations, in destroying Babylon the Great. They do not act on their own initiative, for Jehovah puts it into their hearts “even to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast.” When the time comes, the nations will evidently see the need to strengthen the United Nations. They will give it teeth, as it were, lending it whatever authority and power they possess so that it can turn upon false religion and fight successfully against her “until the words of God will have been accomplished.” Thus, the ancient harlot will come to her complete end. And good riddance to her!

Here's someone else who discovered most of the same things (or almost the same, the ones talking about him aren't very clear) from his study of history and the bible, the books of Daniel and Revelation in particular:

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Akragon

Just because someone puts on the garb of Christianity doesn't meant they truly believe .He might be a true apostate ,but he might have to make a distinction to the meaning of what that really is . I have heard confessions of past pastors confessing that they had never really believed what they were teaching from the get go so it's not a standard response from Christians . If he was then he became a apostate . If he never was then he was a lier ....take your pick .

Exactly, called wolves in sheep's clothing, or as Jesus taught tares among His wheat that the enemy sowed.

a reply to: windword

That's what it says, after the great white throne judgment there will be a new heavens and a new Earth. Even says the new Earth won't have oceans or seas.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: the2ofusr1

Funny how thats the first thing Christians always say when someone leaves the religion... He never actually believed

What a load... lol

He was a minister... that says more then enough

Dude. There are "ministers" right now working for the Illuminati. I know one guy on TBN right now that is a Satanist. Occult means "hidden", they have a Christian looking public profession and a private Luciferian faith.

a reply to: Joecroft

Yes, the two main distinctions of every false religion in the world, every Christian cult group, and Secular Humanism agrees on 2 things, universally:

1. Denial of the deity of Christ, that He came to Earth in the flesh.
2. Denial of Trinity, rejecting the relationship of the Father and the Son.

John points out that this is the "spirit of antichrist", it was in the Earth 2000 years ago, and still is alive today. Will culminate in a man that will deny those two things. The antichrist.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Akragon

Just because someone puts on the garb of Christianity doesn't meant they truly believe .He might be a true apostate ,but he might have to make a distinction to the meaning of what that really is . I have heard confessions of past pastors confessing that they had never really believed what they were teaching from the get go so it's not a standard response from Christians . If he was then he became a apostate . If he never was then he was a lier ....take your pick .

Im pretty sure one of those videos windword posted Dr.Ehrman details his past as a pastor... Before he starting studying the NT in detail, he was one of those who believed in the infallibility doctrine... Until he started finding issues in the fragments we actually have of the texts. He had a few doubts after that... but the straw that broke the camels back was the issue with suffering.

before his detailed analysis he was a christian his whole life.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: the2ofusr1

Funny how thats the first thing Christians always say when someone leaves the religion... He never actually believed

What a load... lol

He was a minister... that says more then enough

Dude. There are "ministers" right now working for the Illuminati. I know one guy on TBN right now that is a Satanist. Occult means "hidden", they have a Christian looking public profession and a private Luciferian faith.

Im sure there is...

Point being, Not everyone who leaves the religion is someone who "never actually believed in the first place"

In fact i find that rather insulting that so many Christians toss that out there at every person who decides against Christianity for whatever reason.

I've had it thrown at me many times as well... and i was also a Christian most of my life.

a reply to: Akragon

he was one of those who believed in the infallibility doctrine

...see now right there he was off on the wrong foot .And it seems strange he would put himself into the position he had not understanding the bible . He sounds like someone that would have made a KJV only type .I guess the book of James was not one of his stronger books to understand and was drinking what ever kool-aid that was offered up ..

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Maybe thats just what happens when you have the ability to actually read the language said fragments are written in?

Or when someone actually studies the NT... as opposed to just listening to a preacher

a reply to: NOTurTypical
Luckily, rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity, is not rejecting the relationship between Jesus and his God/Deity (synonyms) and Father Jehovah, or obscuring his identity and thereby even denying the very existence of the Deity of Christ whose name is Jehovah (possibly, depending on how exactly this is obscured). And when rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity, neither does one have to deny or reject that Jesus is a divine being, a god, or otherwise phrased as the divinity of Christ. Or distract people from being taught a straw man argument by the incorrect usage of "deity" when "divinity" is meant (drilled in by repetition).

Which is what often happens with those arguing for the Trinity (there are also Binitarians who do something similar, allthough they're rare, you might find some amongst those who refer to themselves as Jewish Christians).

Isaac Newton (like me) does not:
1. deny the Deity/God of Christ (who he also called by the Latin version of Jehovah: Iehova, in some of his writings)
2. deny the divinity of Christ (that he is a divine being)
3. that Jesus came to earth in the flesh
4. reject the relationship between the Father (Jehovah) and the Son (Jesus) as it is described in the bible very clearly (Jehovah being the God of and "greater than" Jesus, not equal as the doctrine of the Trinity states)

He does (like me):

Reject the doctrine of the Trinity or Trinitarian philosophy which traces back to Babylonian philosophy about triads which can't be found in the bible (the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts that he also studied diligently in search for truths).

a reply to: Akragon

Well I cant speak for you or bart but I had assumed that it could be understood if I took the time to read and understand it even on my own .I was never one to be told what to think ,I chose learning how to think for myself ,and with the help from God I get by .

a reply to: Akragon

In fact i find that rather insulting that so many Christians toss that out there at every person who decides against Christianity for whatever reason.

Yes, insulting indeed, claiming to know the soul of a complete stranger so well as to pass judgment is what it amounts to.

Wait, this is off topic, quick, say Revelation 17, Mystery Babylon, uh...uh... Beast?

and i was also a Christian most of my life.

Have you ever said that before? I don't remember you saying that before. But I miss a lot of things.

On topic: "And the Great Harlot shall ..."

a reply to: whereislogic

Real simple test,:

Is Jesus of Nazareth the Son of God incarnate as a man? The eternal God?

a reply to: pthena


How exactly is it insulting? Peter, Jon, and Paul all state that the ones who leave the assembly make it known they never were part of it to begin with, maybe self-deluded. This is just affirming scripture. Even Jesus says that those the Father gave to Him no man can pluck me out of His hand. If I can pluck myself out of His hand that make Him a false teacher. And clearly Jesus isn't one.

Why is that "insulting"? I mean the entire gospel is offensive to most people, but why is it insulting to say that those who didn't perservere mad it manifest the never were born again in the first place?