Barack Obama says women should not be shamed for having sex while men get a pat on the back

a reply to: GreenGunther

I'm fine with people doing whatever they want IF THATS WHAT BRINGS THEM HAPPINESS.

What happens when it interferes with the happiness of someone else?
Screw 'em?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Bluesma

See. That's a funny thing. As a male adolescent, I never, ever, thought of women (girls, then) as "prey." The thing is, I don't recall my father ever giving me any fatherly advice about women nor do I recall my mother ever saying much about it. I did have two sisters (and two brothers) so maybe that had something to do with it.

So based admittedly on my own experience, I find the "boys just will be boys" argument specious.


And to keep the record straight, I fell in love at 15 and was with her for 7 years.

I'm lost on the "prey" comment...?

I am referring to being discerning in terms of choosing mate and partner - not hunting down prey.
Choosing carefully who to trust- not who to conquer.

Your parents never gave you love advice at all?

My kids did come to us and ask for advice and guidance. Maybe it is a european thing, in which sex is not taboo. They planned when they were going to have sex and came and asked us to help them prepare with birth control and all that.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
a reply to: Phage

I think its an attitude that has only come about in the last 10-15yrs with the mass spreading of internet and social media.

Back then, women as prey only existed for predatory males. Now everyone wants to post their deeds online and appear to be more than they are for their ''social network''

look how many college kids are getting done for rape, photos of drunk girls passed out, sexual assault etc etc...

The "prey" and "predatory" words again.. what the heck? Do you people feel your sons, husbands, fathers, are predators???

We watched Zootopia the other night, and all of a sudden, I am wondering if the whole fear of predators theme was actually symbolizing a current social movement in the US! Are men considered predators now, and women prey??

a reply to: Bluesma

Your parents never gave you love advice at all?

Not directly, no. As I said, I had two sisters. Older sisters. And two older brothers. I had ample opportunity to observe "love" from both. And no, I'm not talking about watching them make out.

They planned when they were going to have sex and came and asked us to help them prepare with birth control and all that.

My love and I managed that on our own. Different times, same result. No pregnancy.

originally posted by: GreenGunther


I'm fine with people doing whatever they want IF THATS WHAT BRINGS THEM HAPPINESS.

Well, yeah, the question is only really of interest to people who either have children or hold a position of responsibility in the community or society. Cultural ethics and mores are a part of the structure and laws of a society, so they are sort of the bedrock that needs to be considered.

I suspect you might care a bit more if you would be left with a bunch of babies your kids produced without discernment and were unable to support or raise....

a reply to: Bluesma

Cultural ethics and mores are a part of the structure and laws of a society, so they are sort of the bedrock that needs to be considered.

Not all mores are beneficial. Would you agree?

I`m reminded of a story Billy Connolly told of an elderly guy he knew.

Billy "what was it like back in your day with young men and women?"

Friend "my pal met this women who gave him the clap, he went to the Dr and the Dr gave him a needle and told him that he needs to speak to the woman and get her to go to the Dr`s. He was a bit embarrassed and uncomfortable about this, but he called the woman and said I need to come over tonight and she said ok", he got the clap again.


People being promiscuous has probably gone on since the beginning, but females are supposed to be held to higher esteem imo by men and a virtuous woman and also man make a great coupling. Which there offspring usually inherit.

Nowadays there is just so much sleeping around, divorce, fatherless children, single mums, broken families etc who`s children do the same, rinse and repeat.

Some call that progress.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Bluesma

Your parents never gave you love advice at all?

Not directly, no. As I said, I had two sisters. Older sisters. And two older brothers. I had ample opportunity to observe "love" from both. And no, I'm not talking about watching them make out.

They planned when they were going to have sex and came and asked us to help them prepare with birth control and all that.

My love and I managed that on our own. Different times, same result. No pregnancy.

Well, that is great! If they were much older and you were able to observe the long term effects of choices!
Younger kids usually have a much easier time with choice making because of that. The one that screwed up, of mine, was the oldest, and he was already 23, and on his own for many years. Perhaps his younger brother and sister partially made better decisions because they watched the first one make the mistakes!

But in any case.... I am starting to realize that context in which I raised my children does not count in this discussion.
They did not grow up in the US. There was no sense of predators, nor prey. It was always just about people choosing to partner with others in a way that is the most mutually beneficial possible.



Somehow, I got the impression the issue was why men feel more driven by sex, women by security, which seems to be completely rational and natural. But this prey-sex association sounds more like you guys are refering to a victim-tyrant sort of relation... in which you are question whether women should take the role of "tyrant" or "victimizer"/"predator" as much as men do. But I don't think men are in that role, so....

Yeah, there is a valid reason to read the first 7 pages first.

a reply to: Bluesma

The one that screwed up, of mine, was the oldest, and he was already 23, and on his own for many years.

My eldest brother has been very successful (he retired, that %#$@!) and married to the same woman for...40(?!) years.

Yeah, there is a valid reason to read the first 7 pages first.

Not to mention the thread title.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Bluesma

Cultural ethics and mores are a part of the structure and laws of a society, so they are sort of the bedrock that needs to be considered.

Not all mores are beneficial. Would you agree?

Um....as an individual? My personal preferences? Yes. I prefer some to others.
But that preference and judgement is born from the base conditioning of ethics and morals I was infused with as a very young human.

Trying to judge from outside my personal preferences- I'd say what is beneficial or not depends upon intent.

a reply to: Bluesma

Let's try this; is it possible that changing mores can, while painful at first, be beneficial in the long term?

e.g. For a very long time in the US, mores said that women were second class citizens. They were not allowed to vote.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Bluesma

The one that screwed up, of mine, was the oldest, and he was already 23, and on his own for many years.

My eldest brother has been very successful (he retired, that %#$@!) and married to the same woman for...40(?!) years.

Yeah, there is a valid reason to read the first 7 pages first.

Not to mention the thread title.

Barack Obama says women should not be shamed for having sex while men get a pat on the back

That sounds like saying women should be patted on the back for having sex, as men are.

It seemed to me that being "patted on the back" is being encouraged to do something,
and that "women should be patted on the back" means they should be encouraged to have more sex.

That doesn't say anything about the predator and prey thing you all are describing. Don't pretend it is.


That is really great that you had some elder role model siblings. Good for you. For those of us who didn't it was a bit more complicated. Especially for the many of us who were in single parent families.
Especially in the seventies, when women were under pressure to sleep around as much as possible to prove they were "free"- no matter if their self preservation instincts were screaming in fear.


I would rather not bring back that fad, because I watched it hurt my own parents a lot.
(hell, it hurt me too! My mom made me feel horrible for having "only" one boyfriend at a time! A liberated and powerful woman must have many sexual partners; according to her and her entourage at the time. I don't agree with that )
I find collective ethics interesting and important, especially for young people that need to look outside their immediate family for guidance and role models. They are the backup system for those people.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Bluesma

Let's try this; is it possible that changing mores can, while painful at first, be beneficial in the long term?

e.g. For a very long time in the US, mores said that women were second class citizens. They were not allowed to vote.

Yes. I would agree that is possible.

So what is the relevance of the second comment?

a reply to: Bluesma

So what is the relevance of the second comment?

public.wsu.edu...

a reply to: Bluesma

That sounds like saying women should be patted on the back for having sex, as men are.

No it doesn't.

It seemed to me that being "patted on the back" is being encouraged to do something,

Yes, it does.

and that "women should be patted on the back" means they should be encouraged to have more sex.

Who said that women should be patted on the back for it?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Bluesma

So what is the relevance of the second comment?

public.wsu.edu...

I know what THAT means... LOL!

I will try again, re-word and see if that gets across better:
What is the relevance of the statement

For a very long time in the US, mores said that women were second class citizens. They were not allowed to vote.

In what way do you see the "painful" part in that changing?

Do you feel it was painful for women, when that changed, to have the right to vote? Or painful for them to no longer be second class citizens?

What was the uncomfortable challenge they had to deal with in the short term, with that change?

-and what is the painful challenge you are pointing at in this current issue as a necessary part of a beneficial change?

originally posted by: Phage

and that "women should be patted on the back" means they should be encouraged to have more sex.

Who said that women should be patted on the back for it?

It seemed obvious to me that the statement was saying "women should be treated the same as men are".

a reply to: Bluesma

It seemed obvious to me that the statement was saying "women should be treated the same as men are".

Huh, imagine that.
It seemed to me that the statement was saying that women should not be condemned for something that men are celebrated for.

a reply to: Bluesma

In what way do you see the "painful" part in that changing?

The enactment and implementation of the change involved much effort, pain, and controversy.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Bluesma

It seemed obvious to me that the statement was saying "women should be treated the same as men are".

Huh, imagine that.
It seemed to me that the statement was saying that women should not be condemned for something that men are celebrated for.

Yeah, I guess it didn't specify what the attitude should be (for either sex) is was just sort of an open objection to how things are, and we were left to fill in the blanks with guesses. It is normal that not everyone is going to fill in that blank with the same idea.

I'm used to seeing commentary which focuses on the idea that men and women should be treated the same way, so naturally my guess went that direction.

What was yours?