Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

NM

As has been pointed out already, trans folks have been using the wr of their identity forever. Now that it's been politicized there's an issue. Well what are you going to do about it? Grope everyone going into a woman's wr to make sure no testes enter? I don't think that's reasonable, or legal.

originally posted by: James1982

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix
a reply to: neo96

Isn't that what a transgender does ?

Funny man has mean spirited jokes. I know this will peeve you then, I actually haven't spent any money on it other than 20 something dollars a month with co pay for hormones and most major gender affirming surgeries I may wish to have are required by law to be covered by my insurance. Thanks obamacare or more accurately thanks for being a team player and helping to pay for my boobs.

Making lots of allies for the cause, yes?

It's almost as if you are trying to make people hate you and your kind. Do you really think bragging about the use of other people's money for your cosmetic surgery is going to cause anything but animosity towards you?

Instead of constantly trying to drill "awareness" into other people's minds maybe try to gain a little perspective of your own.

Two margarita's in on a sunny tuesday I don't really care if you like me or not. I was just speaking the truth and yes I know it was inflammatory that was the point. Being angry and hating me only hurts you and your soul not me!

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Except there is no saftey risk....at least where the bathroom law is concerned...

Yes, there is. Increased opportunity equals increased risk. Fewer deterrents equal increased opportunists.

This law does not make molestation legal...if some one does this, they will not be found not guilty because of this law...

Half true. No, it does not make molestation legal, but it does legalize some previous sex offenses, such as flashing. I use that example because a friend told me about an experience in a ladies bathroom in which a man in women's clothing pulled up his skirt to fix his pantyhose... and there was his manhood in all its glory. He basically flashed everyone in that bathroom. In the interest of full disclosure, this was at a bar. Probably a gay bar. But in a similar situation in a girl's bathroom, it's not a crime now, so no, he won't even be charged.

Crimes are 90%+ impulse decisions with zero thought into the end result.. If not they wouldn't do it. Besides financial crimes, it is never profitable to do so.

Exactly. Impulse and opportunity are a very dangerous combination.

That said we have some really questionable things being done with kids diagnoses as trans...

I have a major problem with people diagnosing 4 year olds as trans and begining the social part of the swap.

As do I. This defies everything I was taught about the best course of medical treatment is always the least invasive with the least negative side effects. We are making kids medically and chemically dependent for the rest of their lives. And for most, this is far more about what they've been taught or conditioned to believe a "real" boy or girl is, rather than an innate medical condition requiring treatment.

This is not accurate with crime pathology. Your attempting to use a form of common sense.

No more access does not mean more opportunity for abuse.

One thing you never respond to is this has been found on a decade. Where is this rate of increase? The states allowing this for a decade, thousands of bussinesses, hundreds of schools, the Olympics etc. Where are your data points from these actual areas?

Your making a serious leap. That men will start raping woman. The ones who are rapists are not stopped by bathrooms. Why don't you focus on college campuses, soriorites, and frats. That is where some alarming numbers exist.

Also take some self defense classes empower yourself. Get a concealed carry. Stop playing the victim.

So the line is "It won't change anything and women and girls will not be more vulnerable if men can go into women's spaces because predators will be predators no matter what". This simply isn't true and further, is so profoundly ignorant of how sexual predators operate that it is scary. (Not to mention the nice little victim blaming twist at the end, nice).

Sexual predators are just that, predators. They act like lions stalking prey, or sharks lurking. They evaluate situations and choose their victim with a risk assessment that is primarily based upon three basic questions asking 1. "Can I get away with this?" 2. "Could I get hurt?" and 3. "How vulnerable is my victim?"

The greatest risk is with situational predators who are trollers. They wait for an opportunity. Women are more vulnerable in these spaces because they are often only partially clothed (opportunity). Further, these are situations where many sexual predators will be drawn to because they are titillating for them (incentive). Women in various states of undress (which, again, makes them more vulnerable) is arousing for many of them. The risk is low because they won't be challenged. Win win as far as a predator is concerned. When I talk about this I am not just talking about worst-case-scenarios where women are raped; I am including voyeurs that are just looking or may film, and men who will just "cop a feel". But women are just supposed to put up with that sort of stuff already, and we do, because it's usually easier to just let that creep follow us or grab our boob than make a stink, because they might get violent and even if we do say something, other people just say stupid things like "Well you should have learned to fight and be responsible for your own safety". And now there is an added element of "If you complain you are a bigot". So, yes allowing men access to these spaces will up the risk.

I know that you want freedom for all, or at least you say that you do, and I respect that you want to help these transgender kids and empathize with their situation, but you are stomping all over the rights of women and girls and their safety, security and privacy in order to try to be a hero for transgender people. Based upon your comment that women should just learn self defense and be responsible for their own safety, I don't think that you really care how nerve racking bathrooms and changing rooms are already (a large percentage of those stall doors don't lock by the way), and are about to become even more so for a lot of females, and certainly can't be bothered to try to understand that men, are physically stronger than women so the risk for us is greater.

I can tell you that moving through a public space as a woman can be scary and hazardous. I've been leered at, stalked/followed, and felt up, all in public spaces, and often with other people around. I am pushing 40 and this crap still happens to me. I'm not counting the molestations (yes plural) when I was kid (I guess I should have just learned to fight...?), or the gang rape because those were in private spaces. But... oh, right, I'm just "playing the victim" so it's easy for you to dismiss my experience. What the hell you do you really think is going to happen if men can follow women into these controllable, semi-private spaces where they have opportunity for further arousal and not be challenged? Because even if they are wondering about a guy, most people will be afraid to challenge him walking into the women's restroom because then they might be labeled a bigot. I encourage a third set of bathrooms and changing rooms, but that's not good enough apparently.

I'll say it again, men are physically stronger than women. There is an inherent risk in that. I am 5'2" and 110 lbs. There is no amount of self defense training that will help me with some men, and there are lots and lots of public spaces where I cannot take a gun, or I frankly should not take a gun. My daughter can't take a gun to school either. For the record, I am bisexual (so not just some straight, suburbanite, church lady), I can brawl, and you bet I use a gun, because I know from first hand experience just how common sexual predators really are. And for the record, the vast VAST majority of those sexual predators are not going to be transgender people, most will be (often seemingly) normal men who take advantage of an opportunity for greater access to more vulnerable victims.

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Except there is no saftey risk....at least where the bathroom law is concerned...

Yes, there is. Increased opportunity equals increased risk. Fewer deterrents equal increased opportunists.

This law does not make molestation legal...if some one does this, they will not be found not guilty because of this law...

Half true. No, it does not make molestation legal, but it does legalize some previous sex offenses, such as flashing. I use that example because a friend told me about an experience in a ladies bathroom in which a man in women's clothing pulled up his skirt to fix his pantyhose... and there was his manhood in all its glory. He basically flashed everyone in that bathroom. In the interest of full disclosure, this was at a bar. Probably a gay bar. But in a similar situation in a girl's bathroom, it's not a crime now, so no, he won't even be charged.

Crimes are 90%+ impulse decisions with zero thought into the end result.. If not they wouldn't do it. Besides financial crimes, it is never profitable to do so.

Exactly. Impulse and opportunity are a very dangerous combination.

That said we have some really questionable things being done with kids diagnoses as trans...

I have a major problem with people diagnosing 4 year olds as trans and begining the social part of the swap.

As do I. This defies everything I was taught about the best course of medical treatment is always the least invasive with the least negative side effects. We are making kids medically and chemically dependent for the rest of their lives. And for most, this is far more about what they've been taught or conditioned to believe a "real" boy or girl is, rather than an innate medical condition requiring treatment.

This is not accurate with crime pathology. Your attempting to use a form of common sense.

No more access does not mean more opportunity for abuse.

One thing you never respond to is this has been found on a decade. Where is this rate of increase? The states allowing this for a decade, thousands of bussinesses, hundreds of schools, the Olympics etc. Where are your data points from these actual areas?

Your making a serious leap. That men will start raping woman. The ones who are rapists are not stopped by bathrooms. Why don't you focus on college campuses, soriorites, and frats. That is where some alarming numbers exist.

Also take some self defense classes empower yourself. Get a concealed carry. Stop playing the victim.

So the line is "It won't change anything and women and girls will not be more vulnerable if men can go into women's spaces because predators will be predators no matter what". This simply isn't true and further, is so profoundly ignorant of how sexual predators operate that it is scary. (Not to mention the nice little victim blaming twist at the end, nice).

Sexual predators are just that, predators. They act like lions stalking prey, or sharks lurking. They evaluate situations and choose their victim with a risk assessment that is primarily based upon three basic questions asking 1. "Can I get away with this?" 2. "Could I get hurt?" and 3. "How vulnerable is my victim?"

The greatest risk is with situational predators who are trollers. They wait for an opportunity. Women are more vulnerable in these spaces because they are often only partially clothed (opportunity). Further, these are situations where many sexual predators will be drawn to because they are titillating for them (incentive). Women in various states of undress (which, again, makes them more vulnerable) is arousing for many of them. The risk is low because they won't be challenged. Win win as far as a predator is concerned. When I talk about this I am not just talking about worst-case-scenarios where women are raped; I am including voyeurs that are just looking or may film, and men who will just "cop a feel". But women are just supposed to put up with that sort of stuff already, and we do, because it's usually easier to just let that creep follow us or grab our boob than make a stink, because they might get violent and even if we do say something, other people just say stupid things like "Well you should have learned to fight and be responsible for your own safety". And now there is an added element of "If you complain you are a bigot". So, yes allowing men access to these spaces will up the risk.

I know that you want freedom for all, or at least you say that you do, and I respect that you want to help these transgender kids and empathize with their situation, but you are stomping all over the rights of women and girls and their safety, security and privacy in order to try to be a hero for transgender people. Based upon your comment that women should just learn self defense and be responsible for their own safety, I don't think that you really care how nerve racking bathrooms and changing rooms are already (a large percentage of those stall doors don't lock by the way), and are about to become even more so for a lot of females, and certainly can't be bothered to try to understand that men, are physically stronger than women so the risk for us is greater.

I can tell you that moving through a public space as a woman can be scary and hazardous. I've been leered at, stalked/followed, and felt up, all in public spaces, and often with other people around. I am pushing 40 and this crap still happens to me. I'm not counting the molestations (yes plural) when I was kid (I guess I should have just learned to fight...?), or the gang rape because those were in private spaces. But... oh, right, I'm just "playing the victim" so it's easy for you to dismiss my experience. What the hell you do you really think is going to happen if men can follow women into these controllable, semi-private spaces where they have opportunity for further arousal and not be challenged? Because even if they are wondering about a guy, most people will be afraid to challenge him walking into the women's restroom because then they might be labeled a bigot. I encourage a third set of bathrooms and changing rooms, but that's not good enough apparently.

I'll say it again, men are physically stronger than women. There is an inherent risk in that. I am 5'2" and 110 lbs. There is no amount of self defense training that will help me with some men, and there are lots and lots of public spaces where I cannot take a gun, or I frankly should not take a gun. My daughter can't take a gun to school either. For the record, I am bisexual (so not just some straight, suburbanite, church lady), I can brawl, and you bet I use a gun, because I know from first hand experience just how common sexual predators really are. And for the record, the vast VAST majority of those sexual predators are not going to be transgender people, most will be (often seemingly) normal men who take advantage of an opportunity for greater access to more vulnerable victims.

Your predator prey story is interesting. However it doesn't fit the mo.

Rapists usually know the person and lure them into the situation.

a reply to: redhorse

Bravo

Thank you so much for that -- for expressing so much so well for so many women. Bravo!!!

(You and Redshoes are really showing me up for the slacker I am! But it's all good )

a reply to: redhorse

I have to ask you where are your stats for how the rate of rape effected woman in the dozen or so states that have been allowing trans folks to use what ever bathroom?

How about the family changing rooms in New York or MA that are unisex?

What about the thousands of corperations who have voluntarily done this or gov workers?

Olympic athletes and officials?


Is it possible you are paranoid and your common sense doesn't reflect reality?

Your 5 2 so what. You can still learn how to observe your souroundings and make good judgement calls. You can learn to fire a weapon lethal or non. These are things that will empower you to feel safer.

The fact that this issue is a logical falacy when you put it in perspective is an issue.

Nothing will stop predators now from dressing as woman. Nothing. There are no bathroom cops. Especially in these deserted dark bathrooms people are worried about.

Second your fear is your issue. Your perception is your issue. The fact that a trans person can't be who they are and you need to remind them of that by forcing a person who looks like a girl to use a men's room is personal liberty.

You and many others are very confused about this.

If I am afraid of black guys because I am 5'9" and they can be much bigger do I have a right to deny them personal liberty no. You don't make laws that way.

I don't picket out in front of churches telling moms don't bring your kids to Sunday school the rate of child molesters is above average.

You want to protect girls. Teach them how to pay attention to their souroundings get off the phone, don't get wasted at college parties, don't meet people on the internet. Learn to fire a weapon, pepper spray, or tasers. Learn self defense. Brazilian jiu jiysu was made from a weak sick small man to use leverage and patience against a bigger opponent. The main position is basically the female in misionary called the guard. It's how how use bjj. Perfect for self defence of woman. If you want to learn to strike use Kali. It's a eye gouges and soft tissue attacks.

I not blaming a victim there isn't one. The person I was responding to didn't say she was abused and I didn't blame her for it nor would I.

My point is your not helpless. Unless you think you are.

a reply to: luthier

Rapists usually know the person and lure them into the situation.

How many rapists do you know?

originally posted by: awareness10
a reply to: luthier

Rapists usually know the person and lure them into the situation.

How many rapists do you know?

If you believe the media.... Bill Cosby. And he DID know and lure his victim.

a reply to: intrepid

I meant personally.

originally posted by: awareness10
a reply to: intrepid

I meant personally.

That makes a difference? Or merely semantics?

a reply to: intrepid

Perhaps it does, but, why do you seem so bothered by my question to another poster?

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: DestroyDestroyDestroy
It's actually also around locker rooms showers and dorms where full nudity can occur.
This is definitely about privacy between the sexes.

Nope. As far as college dorms nope.

It's gender inclusive as a choice. Pretty similar to coed dorms. Roommates are by birth sex or by a vetting process where the birth sex is made know if the body parts don't match.
Showers are single stall.

Pretty sure the frats and sororities are where most of the assualts in woman take place. Are you outspoken about those dangers?

As revised interpretations of title IV yes it affects college dorms.

a reply to: luthier
What is this? Like don't wear a short skirt and you won't get raped? Pull ease
Yes teach girls not to get wasted at college but that's another story isn't it.

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: luthier
What is this? Like don't wear a short skirt and you won't get raped? Pull ease
Yes reach girls not to get wasted at college but that's another story isn't it.

Really teaching woman to defend themselves, observe your souroundings, not get wasted etc is the same as don't where short skirts? Not where I am from. Though I live right next to a military base. My wife has a ccl.

By the way your wrong about the dorm thing. My wife is a research Prof. Her school was just sued for making a trans student tell her roomate in a trip she was in transition. The suit was dropped.

I personally don't have an issue with nudity but if you do schools make accommodations. They also don't force you to have trans room at s or live in gender variable dorms. You also have the option to go to Christian schools where they are excempt from title 9.

Otherwise coed dorms and shenanigans has gone in a long time.

originally posted by: awareness10
a reply to: luthier

Rapists usually know the person and lure them into the situation.

How many rapists do you know?

I know that I took a criminal justice class in college.

a reply to: redhorse

I will ask you what I asked other posters with no adequate answer: What are the statistics for harassment and/or assault by predators in women's public bathrooms in the cities and states where these non-discrimination laws have been in place for up to 10 years? How do the statistics compare to the same areas before the non-discrimination laws were put into place?

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: redhorse

I will ask you what I asked other posters with no adequate answer: What are the statistics for harassment and/or assault by predators in women's public bathrooms in the cities and states where these non-discrimination laws have been in place for up to 10 years? How do the statistics compare to the same areas before the non-discrimination laws were put into place?

Expect crickets on that. Nobody has responded.

a reply to: redhorse

I agree with your stance on this topic 95%.

The 5% that I disagree with is that you seem to think that someone who tells a woman that it's a good idea to get self-defense training or a CCDW permit and to carry a firearm is "victim blaming."

There is absolutely nothing wrong with advocating that women empower themselves with the ability to try to even out the chance of successfully defending one's self. Hell, the gun is called the great equalizer for a reason.

Of course, you could just have been referencing the "stop playing the victim" comment, and if so, please disregard this comment.

But I'll tell you what, when my 2-year-old daughter is of age, I will be teaching her self-defense, and then she will take Krav Maga with me. You'd be surprised (or maybe not) at what a 5'2", 110-lb woman can do against a large man when they actually are trained to respond to such an attacker.

With my wife and my daughter, I'm more concerned with the creeps who just want to sneak a peek or snap a pic than a full-on rape or violent sexual assault. But in any event, all are equally justifiable reasons as to why gender-neutral bathrooms forced on places who have sex-segregated bathrooms is a terrible idea. The restrooms need re-designed for this to work safely, even if the safety is more perceived than real.

Isn't it amazing that we get a primer on how (most? all?) men are sexual and social predators, how dangerous they are, how awful and nerve-wracking public spaces are and have been for women ... coupled with passive/aggressive comments questioning other posters' intentions, or ethics or morals or intent to comment here ... with absolutely no apparent awareness that these issues directly affect Trans* women and girls in exactly the same way (if not worse).

And yet, the same folks are fine with laws that would require these same Trans* women and girls to use the male facilities (which are even more dangerous.)

And then the claim is made that someone who is advocating for equal rights and protections for all is called selfish, or not empathetic.

It's jaw-droppingly absurd.

So, instead of suggesting changes that would makes these common public spaces safer for everyone involved, the solution is to sacrifice the Trans* women and girls to these horrible male predators without even wishing them the best.

Yeah, human kindness and concern is just overflowing here.

#retch