Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: PeterH

I don't think so.

Maybe you should read Plato's the Cave.

I think your still chained to the wall.

Christianity can be beautiful with the right teacher. I had to study theology to get a philosophy degree.

Number one Tennant of Christianity. The one you and so many abuse. It's not your place to judge. It's Gods.

Maybe refer to the wheat and weeds parable

One who reads a lot of books and actually imagines that they are anywhere near the truth should perhaps unprogram themselves and take a larger birds eye view.

Freud is most certainly wrong and boring on almost every topic, theology and philosophy are the same thing, and God does not care about any of it.

Deprogramming is the first step......not MORE programming.

No thanks. I don't believe that. It's OK that you do but I don't.

I do believe in a designer of some kind I just don't think it cares like humans believe.

I have more a pandeist point of view.

So pray for me but I don't buy most of the superstions in the Bible. I believe in the wisdom of many of the parables and there is some profound thought in there. I like Jeffersons bible better.

Anyhow you are correct in regards to much of theology and philosophy they definately cross paths and hold hands. They also hate each other.

So I appreciate the device but any evangelism will go unheard. My aunt is a nun, I had religious grand parents. Luckily I wasn't raised that way or I may be an angry atheist instead of a person who accepts religion for what it is.

a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Dude, we've only had gender segregated bathrooms in the USA for 2-3 generations now. Before? It was a free for all:

The first regulation requiring separate toilet facilities for men and women was passed in 1887, when Massachusetts required the establishment of separate privies in businesses.

TIME.com

And even then it was all because women were starting to take jobs in the workplace:

Social norms of the period dictated that the home was a woman’s place. Even as women entered the workplace, often in the new factories that were being built at the time, there was a reluctance to integrate them fully into public life. Women, policymakers argued, were inherently weaker and still in need of protection from the harsh realities of the public sphere.

So, basically machismo and misogyny ruled the day and our puritanical/Victorian attitudes were carried along as cultural baggage as women finally made real progress toward gender equality.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ParasuvOWhat we do know, is that we are being asked to accept anyone at face value as to how they feel, and respond to that WITHOUT ACTUALLY KNOWING a dam thing about it.

Isn't that what we do anyway, all the time?

Unless you live in a small town where everyone knows your name.

Yeah mayberry was a good place to visit,but i woudnt want to live there. I was going to go with a cheers refrence but i coudnt work in a marv joke.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: Boadicea

Excellent information! Quite detailed, and more than enough to show a dark side to these current debates, that some would prefer to pretend did not exist. Information is power, and you have offered a lot of information! Now to go through the rest of the thread.

S&F.

It's good to see that you picked up on the message, that OP has since for some odd reason tried to avoid or diminish or deny:

Some small fraction of Trans* Americans are "dangerous" for some reason related to possible paraphilias, therefore, it's fine to categorically deny ALL of these citizens their Constitutional right to privacy due to a non-existent "danger" which is really no more than a "remote possibility."

Don't even attempt to put words in my mouth here! I agree with the OP, and with the valid point that this current push to allow people to use the opposite sex restroom, etc, is a BAD IDEA. Get that straight. No one has a right to invade a bathroom for the opposite sex, just because they "feel like" they are that sex. End of discussion.

As for danger, your side is the one claiming it's "dangerous" for some trans person to use the bathroom that matches their junk. Yet, the real danger for others isn't important? The hypocrisy is astounding, truly.

Just so you know, this will be my only response to you in this thread. So, don't waste time replying. I am not playing this game.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain
a reply to: luthier

are you going to answer my question pertaining to you essentially calling me a child rapist?

What question. I didn't call you anything. Just wondering if you read any Freud? Or what it may mean that the first thing you think of is Ms doubtfire hanging out in bathrooms preying on kids. It could be you just have no expireince with trans people and your afraid of the unknown.

Well firstly, Freud was a QUACK coc aine addict that most contemporary therapists/psychologists see as outdated and mostly irrelevant. So the Freud reference is useless.

Secondly, you're trying to propose that someone who acknowledges that there are Predators out there which will stop at nothing to exploit children in various manners, is a latent "child rape fantasizer" is simply childish

You know better

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: Boadicea

Excellent information! Quite detailed, and more than enough to show a dark side to these current debates, that some would prefer to pretend did not exist. Information is power, and you have offered a lot of information! Now to go through the rest of the thread.

S&F.

It's good to see that you picked up on the message, that OP has since for some odd reason tried to avoid or diminish or deny:

Some small fraction of Trans* Americans are "dangerous" for some reason related to possible paraphilias, therefore, it's fine to categorically deny ALL of these citizens their Constitutional right to privacy due to a non-existent "danger" which is really no more than a "remote possibility."

Don't even attempt to put words in my mouth here! I agree with the OP, and with the valid point that this current push to allow people to use the opposite sex restroom, etc, is a BAD IDEA. Get that straight. No one has a right to invade a bathroom for the opposite sex, just because they "feel like" they are that sex. End of discussion.

As for danger, your side is the one claiming it's "dangerous" for some trans person to use the bathroom that matches their junk. Yet, the real danger for others isn't important? The hypocrisy is astounding, truly.

Just so you know, this will be my only response to you in this thread. So, don't waste time replying. I am not playing this game.

Yes, I know! Geez you folks are so sensitive!

You agree with the OPs assertion that all Trans* folk are somehow or "possibly" dangerous, that because of a misinterpreted paraphilia, and a long string of loosely rational connections to violence (that has nothing to do with actual facts), all Trans* folk should be denied their civil and Constitutional rights to use the public facilities that are correct to their gender.

I'm not at all surprised that you agree. I'm just saying, and have said, and will keep saying that is OPs point, and that all of you offering kudos believe the same thing. You don't believe in the Constitution, or the rule-of-law ... you believe in your political ideology that says you should use the power of the State (as North Carolina and others have done) to invade the privacy of some Americans and attempt to render them as second-class citizens!

I don't care if you respond or not, you should know clearly by now. You've already made my point. /shrug

Why is the argument against transgender bathroom rights always centered around protecting women and young girls? It's not like all transgender people are men who identify as women.

In either case, public bathrooms have these things called stalls; you know, so we don't have to look at other people, or be looked at by other people, when we piss and s***. Do you really think that it makes a difference, then, whether the person in the stall next to you has a penis or vagina? Why do you care? Do you think they care at all about your sex?

It really baffles me. The same people who are against gun-free zones (you know, because they really do nothing to stop gun violence), are the ones protesting transgender bathroom rights, because the legality of an action is going to prevent a f***ing sex offender from exposing him or herself to the opposite sex in a public bathroom. Criminals are gonna "crim," ya know? The state of the law doesn't matter.

Seriously, think about it. This is a non-issue. If I were transgender, I would like to use the bathroom of whatever gender I felt I better aligned with because it'd be very awkward being a guy dressed as a chick in a men's restroom, and vice versa. If you were transgender, you'd probably feel the same way.

"Treat others how you would like to be treated." It's pretty basic.

a reply to: DestroyDestroyDestroy

Many of us have been making the same points. Perhaps you will get an answer, we have not.

Very well stated, not to mention rationally.

a reply to: Boadicea

Brava! Brava! Boadicea! Tour de force OPs! Was that a lot of work! So enlightening, so much I never knew -- of course, I've never had an interest in this topic until the politically forced invasion on girls & women.

Believe me, there is a VERY sinister agenda behind this movement. And it doesn't end with the forced acceptance of transgenders in the women's locker room showers.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
So, basically machismo and misogyny ruled the day and our puritanical/Victorian attitudes were carried along as cultural baggage as women finally made real progress toward gender equality.

So did you find the part where women were championing unisex bathrooms, showers and locker rooms right after they gained the ability to vote?

No, you didn't.

Restroom stalls are not locker rooms and showers, which are extensions of this discussion.

originally posted by: DestroyDestroyDestroy

"Treat others how you would like to be treated." It's pretty basic.

Empathy approach? Okay then.

Women and girls do not want a man stripping naked in front of them, especially while they are likewise undressed.

A man or boy who thinks he is a female claims to think like a woman or girl.

This man or boy still looks like a man or boy, once undressed.

If that man or boy truly thinks like a woman or girl, then he should understand that other women or girls do not want to see him stripping in front of them.

If he strips in front of women and girls he lacks empathy for the women and girls.

If he lacks empathy, how does he know what it feels like to be a woman or girl?

originally posted by: DestroyDestroyDestroy
"Treat others how you would like to be treated." It's pretty basic.

Response #2:

If I have a mental issue about my body image, I want people to tell me I have a problem and get me to seek treatment. I do not want them to reinforce my mental issue and help convince me I am normal.

We don't tell anorexics to keep starving themselves. We don't tell bulimics to keep eating.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: AuranVector

Thank you -- much appreciated!

It did take some time and a whole lot of reading, and there is a very sinister underbelly at work here. But it's really just darn sad in so many ways -- for so many people. And ignoring it doesn't help anyone. I know we can do better. Seeing the problems is one thing though... finding the answers is so much harder.

a reply to: Teikiatsu

If I have a mental issue about my body image, I want people to tell me I have a problem and get me to seek treatment. I do not want them to reinforce my mental issue and help convince me I am normal.

That's one of the saddest parts of this whole mess. There seems to be a biological component as well as a mental/emotional issue, though it's hard to know where one starts and the other leaves off. Too many folks aren't getting the help they need. And too many other folks are exploiting their pain and difficulties for personal and political agendas. It really doesn't help anyone in the end. And it just makes it worse for those trying to deal with these issues -- the trans folks themselves, their family and friends and so many others.....

The wheel continues to spin. People who have ethics and morals. And those who wish those morals did not exist.

The fight is real. It is taking place right now. You can see it here, live.

Will human ethics and morals be outlawed and viewed as wrong?

I will tell you my opinion.

Yes.

It is going to happen very very soon.

Everyone with common sense? You didn't have enough to stop what is going to happen to you.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: DestroyDestroyDestroy
"Treat others how you would like to be treated." It's pretty basic.

Response #2:

If I have a mental issue about my body image, I want people to tell me I have a problem and get me to seek treatment. I do not want them to reinforce my mental issue and help convince me I am normal.

We don't tell anorexics to keep starving themselves. We don't tell bulimics to keep eating.

Always these labels being imposed by order of the King, and pushed by Liberals hellbent on us all eating wheaties when we would really rather not.

a reply to: iBelieve77

It is happening... and has been for a long long time.

But these are necessary growing pains. Our morals and ethics have never been perfect -- and probably never will. And things might have to get worse before they get better, but we'll get there.

When we know better, we can do better.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Teikiatsu

If I have a mental issue about my body image, I want people to tell me I have a problem and get me to seek treatment. I do not want them to reinforce my mental issue and help convince me I am normal.

That's one of the saddest parts of this whole mess. There seems to be a biological component as well as a mental/emotional issue, though it's hard to know where one starts and the other leaves off. Too many folks aren't getting the help they need. And too many other folks are exploiting their pain and difficulties for personal and political agendas. It really doesn't help anyone in the end. And it just makes it worse for those trying to deal with these issues -- the trans folks themselves, their family and friends and so many others.....

So, to be clear, is it your position is that all Trans* folks are mentally ill?

Or just your focus group, those with the paraphilia autogynephilia?

Or only that subset of Trans* folks who are also autogynephilic?

Or, is it the subset of Trans* folks who are also autogynephilic who are violent?

Can you be more specific?

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
Restroom stalls are not locker rooms and showers, which are extensions of this discussion.

originally posted by: DestroyDestroyDestroy

"Treat others how you would like to be treated." It's pretty basic.

Empathy approach? Okay then.

Women and girls do not want a man stripping naked in front of them, especially while they are likewise undressed.

A man or boy who thinks he is a female claims to think like a woman or girl.

This man or boy still looks like a man or boy, once undressed.

If that man or boy truly thinks like a woman or girl, then he should understand that other women or girls do not want to see him stripping in front of them.

If he strips in front of women and girls he lacks empathy for the women and girls.

If he lacks empathy, how does he know what it feels like to be a woman or girl?

No Trans* girl is going to strip naked in front of anyone if they can help it. To do so would be extremely uncomfortable for them. This point has been continually made by Trans* folks and non-Trans* alike.

Trans* folks do not claim, per se, "to think like another gender" ... they claim that they have, over a long period (diagnostically, at least two years) a consistent and comprehensive sense of self or identity that they are the opposite gender, neither gender, a mixture of genders, etc. This point has been continually made.

Again, no one is stripping, and you have no evidence that anyone lacks empathy merely because they want to use the appropriate restroom for their gender.

The point has also been made, repeatedly, that gender is not biological sex. Gender is the social and cultural differences aligned with being "a man" or "a woman" or "neither, both, or something else."

You believe that you have struck on a clever way to dismiss Trans* individuals by continually focusing on your idea that to be Trans* means that someone "has direct experience of being the opposite sex."

That's your definition, not anyone else's.

So essentially, you set up the argument to fit your agenda and your contentions, that Trans* equal rights mean they want to expose themselves to others.

That is absurd.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Bless your heart. I don't know what your game really is, and I probably don't want to know. I do know I'm not playing your games or jumping through your hoops. Think what you will.

Brightest blessings.