Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Gryphon66

Bless your heart. I don't know what your game really is, and I probably don't want to know. I do know I'm not playing your games or jumping through your hoops. Think what you will.

Brightest blessings.

My game?

I'm an ATS member that supports equal rights for all, and is particularly interested in supporting the rights of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Trans* folks.

How ridiculous to imply that because I do not accept the flawed, mistaken and dishonest contentions you make in your OP (as has been demonstrated repeatedly here) that I have some dark agenda.

Of course, as you claim that your whole presentation here is about showing the "dark side" of Trans* rights, I'm not surprised you try such a ham-handed segue.

You're cultivating, at least in some of your responses, this seemingly caring persona that your'e really not fronting for a particular political agenda, but that you're really just concerned about Trans* folks and hope they get appropriate care. If that's true, then stop equating them with violent criminals and psychopaths.

There is a difference, which you and others here gloss over, between needing medical treatment (for sex reassignment, depression, anxiety) and being pathological or mentally ill.

It would be easy for me to assign you some sort of membership in a mysterious cabal, but the more likely answer is, you're using your quite obvious skills at writing and research to front for an authoritarian agenda of hatred and bigotry simply because that's what you truly believe in.

So spare us the condescending nonsense. If you won't answer direct questions about your intent when the irrational or illogical nature of your statements are made clear ... that's your own choice.

a reply to: AuranVector

Someone had a biasgasm.

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix
a reply to: neo96

Isn't that what a transgender does ?

Funny man has mean spirited jokes. I know this will peeve you then, I actually haven't spent any money on it other than 20 something dollars a month with co pay for hormones and most major gender affirming surgeries I may wish to have are required by law to be covered by my insurance. Thanks obamacare or more accurately thanks for being a team player and helping to pay for my boobs.

Making lots of allies for the cause, yes?

It's almost as if you are trying to make people hate you and your kind. Do you really think bragging about the use of other people's money for your cosmetic surgery is going to cause anything but animosity towards you?

Instead of constantly trying to drill "awareness" into other people's minds maybe try to gain a little perspective of your own.

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain
a reply to: luthier

are you going to answer my question pertaining to you essentially calling me a child rapist?

What question. I didn't call you anything. Just wondering if you read any Freud? Or what it may mean that the first thing you think of is Ms doubtfire hanging out in bathrooms preying on kids. It could be you just have no expireince with trans people and your afraid of the unknown.

Well firstly, Freud was a QUACK coc aine addict that most contemporary therapists/psychologists see as outdated and mostly irrelevant. So the Freud reference is useless.

Secondly, you're trying to propose that someone who acknowledges that there are Predators out there which will stop at nothing to exploit children in various manners, is a latent "child rape fantasizer" is simply childish

You know better

Freud was a quack? He had some crazy ideas but he pretty much created psychology and the whole structure of psychoanalytics. Not only that but he isn't in any way discredited. He had ideas that were wrong. So what.

Your basically saying Newton was a quack. We have learned more since then so he was wrong and discredited. Uh no.

Like I said there are more predators I'm churches and daycares and kids statistically are abused there far more than any locker it bathroom. Yet you aren't concerned about stopping those incidents. Not are you concerned about the safety of the trans kids. Which is well documented unlike your bathroom nonsense.

just



I really wish all of the people who don't understand what it is like to be transgender could walk a day in the shoes of someone who is.

There are perverts out there I grant you that and would some identify as transgender or transexuals? You bet. However, just like the rest of the world most are just people trying to live their life and want to be comfortable and happy.

Everyone is focusing on the "oh # a person who may or may not have been born with a penis is entering the womens bathroom". Well what the # would you think if some one who was born female but looks like a man but does not have a penis should do? Do you think they should go into the women's bathroom?

Could they not be a pervert just as much as anyone else? Are we forgetting that there are women who were born women and identify as women that are just as #ed up and pervert as people born men?

This is not about bathrooms this is about ignorance. If a pervert wants to do something perverted a #ing sign on the bathroom is not going to stop them no matter what the # they are wearing.

This may very well be a distraction from whatever #ing bull# they are doing that they don't want us to see. They want everyone to fight small battles among ourselves so we are blinded to the real war.

Grow the # up.

Oh for heaven's sake, not another one of these threads.

I thought the motto of this site was supposed to be 'Deny Ignorance'? And yet I have never in my life seen an OP more deliberately constructed to support a discredited and biased opinion.

Autogynephilia isnt a thing. It's a made up theory with no real evidence behind it. Invented by a renegade and thoroughly discredited.

This isn't the elephant in the bathroom. It's the bogey man in the wardrobe.

a reply to: Boadicea

Why does sexuality has to be so damn convoluted?

First it was LGB, then it became LGBT, then it became LBGBTI, now it's LBGTIP (the P is for those attracted to computer printers.)

Why cant people be who they are and be attracted to who they want and leave it at that? Why the labels?

Sexuality is not that convoluted until politics becomes involved.

The issue is when the government tries to legislate AGAINST American citizens with different sexual orientations or gender identities from the majority.

As is seen here, many feel like the will of the majority is all that matters, and if a few Americans with differences happen to be inconvenienced, or treated as second-class citizens, or incarcerated, treated to electroshocks, chemically castrated, etc ... well, that's just the way things are, right?

Wrong. That's NOT the way things "just are" ... those of us who are "different" and those who support equality and freedom under the Constitution are never going to accept that kind of garbage.

Never again.

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
a reply to: Boadicea

Why does sexuality has to be so damn convoluted?

First it was LGB, then it became LGBT, then it became LBGBTI, now it's LBGTIP (the P is for those attracted to computer printers.)

Why cant people be who they are and be attracted to who they want and leave it at that? Why the labels?

I wish I knew... then we could fix it once and for all!!!

On the plus side, while researching this issue, I found a significant presence of "gender critical" folks that warmed my heart and gave me some hope. Mostly feminists (at least the ones I found) who are (still) fighting the gender stereotypes that society expects/demands and otherwise impose on us all -- and which is reinforced and magnified by the current transgender movement. If folks aren't hurting anyone, and they're happy, let them do what they will and be who they are. Our only concerns should be protecting those who are hurting others... and appropriate treatment for those who are in pain and distress. Otherwise, live and let live.

I was surprised to find that there was serious dissension within the LGBT movement itself. Some "Ls" and "Gs" want the "Ts" dropped, citing conflicting agendas. There was an ATS post recently about an LGBT group that wanted white gay nontrans men to be dropped because they aren't discriminated against enough. It's crazy.

But that's divide-and-conquer for ya. Gotta keep the people fighting each other -- instead of them. ( So I guess I do know at least one reason we can't get past this!)

I love it the "gender stereotypes that society demands of us all" ... is now wrong as long as Trans* folks can be slammed.

In the OP it was traditional values and constitutional protections for the sanctity of womanhood.

Our concerns SHOULD be those who are hurting others, like laws that invade the privacy of individuals whatever their gender identity ... a government that thinks it has the right to legislate genitalia ... those who support such unfair and vicious attacks on freedom and liberty ... as do so many in this thread.

Of course it's "divide and conquer" when groups stand up against government oppression approved and condoned by the very folks who are normally railing against it.

It's so good to see Conservatives supporting radical feminism though ... at least as long as it is convenient to their current agenda. Of course, when it actually comes to standing up for equality ... well, we'll be seeing the slurs fly again like "RadFems" and "Feminazis" ... but as long as the words of a few radical Feminists can be used against Trans* folks ... well, that's just fine.

The hypocrisy on display is nauseating.

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
a reply to: Boadicea

Why does sexuality has to be so damn convoluted?

First it was LGB, then it became LGBT, then it became LBGBTI, now it's LBGTIP (the P is for those attracted to computer printers.)

Why cant people be who they are and be attracted to who they want and leave it at that? Why the labels?

I wish I knew... then we could fix it once and for all!!!

On the plus side, while researching this issue, I found a significant presence of "gender critical" folks that warmed my heart and gave me some hope. Mostly feminists (at least the ones I found) who are (still) fighting the gender stereotypes that society expects/demands and otherwise impose on us all -- and which is reinforced and magnified by the current transgender movement. If folks aren't hurting anyone, and they're happy, let them do what they will and be who they are. Our only concerns should be protecting those who are hurting others... and appropriate treatment for those who are in pain and distress. Otherwise, live and let live.

I was surprised to find that there was serious dissension within the LGBT movement itself. Some "Ls" and "Gs" want the "Ts" dropped, citing conflicting agendas. There was an ATS post recently about an LGBT group that wanted white gay nontrans men to be dropped because they aren't discriminated against enough. It's crazy.

But that's divide-and-conquer for ya. Gotta keep the people fighting each other -- instead of them. ( So I guess I do know at least one reason we can't get past this!)

As gryph pointed out. It's really none of your bussiness what other people do with whoever they are attracted to and whoever they feel they are. We are slowly rolling back the discrimination of all kinds of people.

People were upset when slaves were freed, people were upset when women could hold property and bank accounts, people were upset when women could vote, people were upset when segregation ended, people were upset when (all the way to the 70's) spousal rape could be tried in court as a crime, people were upset when gay people were giving rights to Mary and have contracts like everyone else, people are upset that they have to accept transgender people as people and not monsters to keep under wraps.

It's a steady trend since the formation of this Secular state. If you read enlightment philosophy the foundation for all these civil rights exist in the philosophy. So you can blame Locke, Rouseau, Jefferson, Adams and all the great personal liberty pioneers.

The exact same arguements with different words were used for everything I mentioned. You will prob deny this but it's true. It's no different and similar arguements about saying "well this isn't like(insert civil rights fight) this is different".

Trans women have literally been using the bathroom they identify with since bathrooms have been used. Thats a fact.

Several states, many corporations, universities, the Olympics, gov workers etc have been allowing trans people to use any bathroom for at least a decade with no rate increase of violent incident.

Good Morning ATS...had a chance to sleep on this subject and I woke up with this on my mind....maybe I can articulate my feelings better today, I'll try....



This song is a tribute to our OP, her avatar name made me think of it.....and I think you have done a very good job in this thread !

At the end of the day I don't think women and children are in threat by AGP males in bathrooms...they "dig" themselves...they are more at risk from AGP males who destroy their and everyone's live's when they are dishonest cheaters that destroy their families. I would be much more scared of a female strung out on drugs in a public bathroom .

If I came across a clearly "Drag Queen" in a bathroom, I would probably say "looking good baby"...laugh and be on my way.If I had a child with me, I would encourage them to speak honestly with me about how they perceived the situation. So here is my opinion, if anyone cares.

Once kids are involved, stable families matter a whole bunch in their development.....now once and if a person develops a sexual fetish, it might be more about rejecting closeness

originally posted by: Romuloxreturns

just

I really wish all of the people who don't understand what it is like to be transgender could walk a day in the shoes of someone who is.

That goes both ways. Everyone has issues and challenges of one kind or another. Someone who has been brutally raped, or had a loved one assaulted or even killed, could say the same thing. "Trans widows" could say the same thing. Lots of people can say the same thing.

There are perverts out there I grant you that and would some identify as transgender or transexuals? You bet. However, just like the rest of the world most are just people trying to live their life and want to be comfortable and happy.

Of course they are. Just as most of us -- trans or nontrans -- aren't thieves, but we still lock our doors, don't we? The vast majority of men are not rapists... but that small percentage that are is dangerous. Every woman takes at least some precautions to protect themselves from rapists in public and in private, because though the threat may be small, it is a threat. We avoid walking alone at night We carry mace or a rape whistle or a gun. We don't open our door to strange men. We keep our doors locked. We avoid being in confined spaces with strange men, like elevators... and bathrooms.

Women don't care who their attacker is -- straight, trans, whatever -- they care about being attacked. And knowing the threat, it's downright stupid to create greater opportunities for any rapist to do their dirty deeds.

I also find it very disturbing that we are being forced to fulfill the sexual fantasies of men who get off on the rest of us seeing them as women... that we're being forced to call them female pronouns for their sexual gratification. Gross!!! But girls find out that's what men do pretty much with their first training bra. We are part of their fantasies whether we want to be or not.

Everyone is focusing on the "oh # a person who may or may not have been born with a penis is entering the womens bathroom".

No, actually, not everyone... but that's what some people keep telling us. And to just

And to

Grow the # up.

Well what the # would you think if some one who was born female but looks like a man but does not have a penis should do? Do you think they should go into the women's bathroom?

I think they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. But easing one person's discomfort shouldn't come at the expense of another's comfort.

Could they not be a pervert just as much as anyone else? Are we forgetting that there are women who were born women and identify as women that are just as #ed up and pervert as people born men?

Of course. Perverts come in all flavors. But statistically speaking, men are a far greater threat (to everyone, but especially women and children).

This is not about bathrooms this is about ignorance. If a pervert wants to do something perverted a #ing sign on the bathroom is not going to stop them no matter what the # they are wearing.

That's^^^ ignorance. Common sense says to take reasonable precautions for reasonable risks. So I can assume that you never lock your doors because if a thief wants to do some thievery a #ing lock on your door is not going to stop them? Of course not.

This may very well be a distraction from whatever #ing bull# they are doing that they don't want us to see. They want everyone to fight small battles among ourselves so we are blinded to the real war.

And you are certainly doing your part to fuel that fire:

Grow the # up.

That's sure going to make everything better... not.

originally posted by: James1982

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix
a reply to: neo96

Isn't that what a transgender does ?

Funny man has mean spirited jokes. I know this will peeve you then, I actually haven't spent any money on it other than 20 something dollars a month with co pay for hormones and most major gender affirming surgeries I may wish to have are required by law to be covered by my insurance. Thanks obamacare or more accurately thanks for being a team player and helping to pay for my boobs.

Making lots of allies for the cause, yes?

It's almost as if you are trying to make people hate you and your kind. Do you really think bragging about the use of other people's money for your cosmetic surgery is going to cause anything but animosity towards you?

Instead of constantly trying to drill "awareness" into other people's minds maybe try to gain a little perspective of your own.

Your kind? What do you mean by that? the reason its covered under insurance is because its part of their treatment for their condition. Plastic surgery on normal people is not covered under insurance though. Also everyone has something they brag about when it comes to taxes. like ooh i get a loophole here. or oh i get a deduction here. So whats the point of you deriding her for that?

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
a reply to: Boadicea

Why does sexuality has to be so damn convoluted?

First it was LGB, then it became LGBT, then it became LBGBTI, now it's LBGTIP (the P is for those attracted to computer printers.)

Why cant people be who they are and be attracted to who they want and leave it at that? Why the labels?

You're missing the point. Its not about sexuality or sexual preference. Its about identity. Sexual attraction doesnt come into it. The reasoning behind the school of thought concerned with removing the T from LGBT is precisely that. Because the LGB part is specifically concerned with sexuality. and the T part is a matter of identity. Identity is a fundamental concept of human law and legislation. (You can't sue a 'thing' or a minor you can only sue a person with a legally recognised identity.

Rather than argue (as I've learned that is futile on the internet, and as questions are met with non-answers which address the "could be" but not the "is,") I choose to simply express my opinion and then let is disappear into the ether of the web, as I know in the grand scheme of things, it really means and accomplishes nothing. So I'll just say this and then vanish again (with near certainty it will be flipped and twisted to serve the opposite of its intent, so I guess it's only personal catharsis that is served by my saying anything at all... so be it.)

When nothing has changed, and the existing status quo is no less dangerous or threatening than a new paradigm (or, indeed, as is the case here, the new paradigm is actually manufactured and does nothing to change said status quo at all to begin with,) and appeals to contested authority and conclusions of contentious provenance are selectively employed to create a facade of officialdom to justify 1) fear, 2) responding to said fear with what ultimately amounts to guilty until proven innocent, and 3) advocacy for greater intrusion into the most personal of personal things... the intention imho speaks for itself.

In this and other topics we have seen advocacy for:

• Genetic cleansing of transgender persons from the human gene pool
  
• A heavily implied "need" for intrusion into people's personal lives that amounts to a gender identity form of "papers please."
  
• The implication that trans people represent "more" of a threat than anyone else in a shared public facility
  
• The total ignoring of those who are actually trans and choose to speak against all of the above
  
• The justification of the above with ostensible desire to "heal the sick."
  

As stated in another such topic, I lack the emotional and intellectual stamina to wade through these disingenuous, passive aggressive, politicized versions of what in a less polite, unadorned form would be seen as exactly what imo they are.

There is no authoritarianism more pernicious or dangerous than that clothed in ostensible compassion for the "ill."

That's all I have to say. I'm out. No offense intended. Reply as you will, get the last word, make an example of my post, draw (disingenuous) parallels between those advocating for equality and the above civil liberties erosion advocacy, or whatever else one wishes to do with it. I won't read or respond. I'm done. (Yes I know - this makes me a coward and intellectually dishonest or what not. I don't care at this point frankly as, as stated, I know it's futile anyway.)

How trans people deal with this is beyond my comprehension, as I can't stomach it as a cis straight guy watching from what is essentially the outside looking in from far, far away. To those who cope with this every day of your lives: you have my undying respect, and apologies for our society.

Peace.

a reply to: MountainLaurel

This song is a tribute to our OP, her avatar name made me think of it.....and I think you have done a very good job in this thread !

Thank you. I appreciate it -- I just wish I shared your kind words. I'm rather disappointed in myself, but it's a learning experience...

I wish I could see the video too -- but it keeps giving me an error message

At the end of the day I don't think women and children are in threat by AGP males in bathrooms...they "dig" themselves...they are more at risk from AGP males who destroy their and everyone's live's when they are dishonest cheaters that destroy their families. I would be much more scared of a female strung out on drugs in a public bathroom.

From your lips to God's ears! In thinking on it last night, I think the amount of publicity given to the issue will have a positive deterrent effect -- both from women taking more precautions and preparing to defend themselves; and from those within the LGBT movement who do not want the bad apples giving them all a bad name. There are already some doing exactly that. I do expect some opportunists will try... and some will no doubt succeed... but there may be enough pressure from peers and fear of armed women that those who would do harm, think again.

If I came across a clearly "Drag Queen" in a bathroom, I would probably say "looking good baby"...laugh and be on my way.

I had a recent experience that was rather sad and amusing and touching all at the same time. I'm still pondering the encounter... but maybe one day I'll speak of it.

If I had a child with me, I would encourage them to speak honestly with me about how they perceived the situation. So here is my opinion, if anyone cares.

Once kids are involved, stable families matter a whole bunch in their development.....now once and if a person develops a sexual fetish, it might be more about rejecting closeness

I think you may be on to something there! Recent research has found an associated Dissociation Disorder in AGPs. Given the high history of childhood abuse (up to 50% by some data/estimates) in AGPs and all transgender types, it's not surprising I guess.

Sure, life's tough all around these days, isn't it?

When the only response to a heartfelt argument on the behalf of equal treatment before the laws is a string of tired dated cliches and maxims ... that should tell us all something.

Rape victims have it hard? You're danged right they do. And let's hang a lot of that right where it's due ... on Conservative lawmakers who want to blame the victim.

Someone who has a loved one assaulted or killed? Sure many of us have that heartbreak, particularly those of us who are LGBT in light of the fact that violence against us is higher than against any other group.

But the question is which of these groups are being actively LEGISLATED AGAINST by right wing governments?

None of them. Who is telling rape victims and victims of murder and assault or "trans widows" that they should just get over it, that because they are in the minority no one cares about their complaints ... who does that sound like again?

a reply to: redshoes

You're missing the point. Its not about sexuality or sexual preference. Its about identity. Sexual attraction doesnt come into it. The reasoning behind the school of thought concerned with removing the T from LGBT is precisely that. Because the LGB part is specifically concerned with sexuality. and the T part is a matter of identity. Identity is a fundamental concept of human law and legislation. (You can't sue a 'thing' or a minor you can only sue a person with a legally recognised identity.

Thank you for that. You explained that so well and in such easily understood terms. My hat's off to you!

a reply to: Boadicea

Why thank you. (I'm blushing)