Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

The premise of the OP seems to be... there is a flavor of Trans that includes heterosexual men who get off on being seen as women and therefore the laws protecting women in restrooms/locker rooms is warranted. I know I over simplified it, but that's what I got out of it.

I've also read through some of the supporting documentation, specifically the paper "Becoming What We Love" and I think the focus that autogynephilia is a sexual fetish is a little off. That's not what the sources are saying. The sources are saying that there is a difference between homosexual MtF transgendered folks and heterosexual MtF transgendered folks. The former are truly feminine in their psyche and history, while the latter find becoming feminine a sexually charged idea, but not simply a fetish as the OP has framed it.

Like many other paraphilias, autogynephilia can
easily be misunderstood as a purely erotic or lusty phenomenon, devoid of any of
the other elements, such as admiration, affection, beneficence, and desire for
closeness, that are usually associated with the word love, broadly construed, and
that are considered to be expressive of a person’s sexual orientation. Imagine how
heterosexual men would respond to the assertion that their attraction to their
lovers, fiancées, or partners was based solely on erotic desire or lust and nothing
more: I suspect that most would not only regard such a description as woefully
incomplete, but would consider it insensitive at best and deeply offensive at worst.

How this relates to bathrooms, I have no clue, but it's certainly more complicated than simply saying heterosexual men who crossdress in public are all predators. It's interesting that the same paper says that autogynephilia in women is rare, but I would argue it's so NOT rare that it's just accepted as "fashion." Women doing masculine things such as fishing, shooting... are totally accepted and and sexualized by men. I would say it's a lot more prevalent in women than men. There are calendars for "Women with Guns" but not "Men with Irons"...

originally posted by: Boadicea
Autogynephilia is the dark side of the transgender issues that no one wants to talk about... and, indeed, many are trying to very hard to make sure we don't even know about. The level of deliberate deceit and dishonesty is despicable. And dangerous to women and girls. The talking points and buzzwords have been established, on both political sides, and autogynephilia proves the mistruths, half truths, and outright untruths of them all.

~~ We've been told this is all about gender not sex. This is a half truth. For autogynephiles, it's ALL ABOUT SEX -- those heterosexual and other nonhomosexual men who are sexually aroused by wearing women's clothing, and/or performing in female roles. They may also claim/believe they are women trapped in men's bodies, or (more commonly) possess both male and female attributes; but however they feel about their gender, it's all about sexual gratification.
On the Science of Changing Sex

~~ We've been told that all these transgender folks really really feeeeeeel like the other sex. This is a half truth. Many transgender people (including autogynephiles) feel like they are both genders or no gender or that their gender is constantly changing.
A survey of crossdressers
The Crossdreamer Survey on Gender Variance, Index of Posts

We've been told that medical technology has found that the brains of men who become transgender women are more like women's brains in significant ways. This is a half truth. The brains of the homosexual men who identified as a women are more like women's brains in significant ways. NOT the brains of the autogynephiles and other nonhomosexual men (such as bisexual or asexual).
New MRI Studies Support the Blanchard Typology of Male-to-Female Transsexualism

~~ We've been told that transgender bathroom laws are a constitutional right of transgender people. This is a lie. Courts have ruled that women have a constitutional right to sex-segregated spaces according to one's sex at birth.... not one's (brain) gender.
Ginsburg In 1975: Separate Bathrooms Are ‘In Some Situations Required’
The Fear of the Equal Rights Amendment

~~ We've been told this just about who pees next to us. This is a mistruth. This is about every sex-segregated space including locker rooms, showers, dressing rooms, shelters, prisons, hospitals, etc.

~~ We've been told that Europe has been doing this forever. This is a mistruth. Europe has only recently started introducing unisex bathrooms and are still relatively few and far between.
Unisex public toilet
In Europe, creating a post-gender world one small rule at a time

~~ We've been told that forcing men into sex-segregated spaces is the equivalent of gender neutral bathrooms -- open to any and all. This is a lie. Some men are being forced into a woman's space and other men are being kept out. In a sex-segregated bathroom (or any space), women and girls are secluded and vulnerable, with little to no chance of any good able-bodied men present to balance the scales and keep the creepy bad guys in line.
Gender Neutral Bathrooms
States protecting sex segregation and gender identity at the same time!

~~ We've been told that only rightwing nutjobs and and superstitious Christians have a problem with forcing men into women's spaces. This is a lie. A significant portion of women's rights advocates have a big problem with these laws, and transgender autogynephiles in particular. A significant portion of the gay population has a problem with forcing men into women's spaces (and vice versa) and would prefer sex neutral bathrooms free to use by anyone and everyone. And at least some would like the "T" removed from the "LGB".
Petitioning Human Rights Campaign and 5 others Drop the T
PEAK TRANS THREAD!

~~ We've been told that these men do not want to be noticed and just want to do their business. This is a mistruth. Autogynephiles not only want to be seen, their sexual gratification demands that they been seen and acknowledged and treated as a woman. Autogynephiles demand that we role play in their sexual fantasies.
Becoming what we Love -- Autogynephilic Transsexualism

(continued in next post...)

What ever happened to good old fashioned conservative values in this country? They have eroded pretty damn quickly under Obam'a eight years of rule. I don't think there's any chance now for things to go back to the way they were...too much damage has been done to our society, by the Obama regime and its mainstream media counterparts

originally posted by: JulieCruise

What ever happened to good old fashioned conservative values in this country? They have eroded pretty damn quickly under Obam'a eight years of rule. I don't think there's any chance now for things to go back to the way they were...too much damage has been done to our society, by the Obama regime and its mainstream media counterparts

You mean the good old fashioned conservative values that had people lynching blacks and forced those blacks to sit at the back of the bus? Or the good old fashioned conservative values that outlawed interracial marriage? Or the good old fashioned conservative values that prevented women from making the same salary doing the same job as a man? Or the good old fashioned conservative values that made homosexuality against the law?

No thanks. Those "good old fashioned conservative values" are gone for a reason. They oppressed people who weren't white, heterosexual, cis gendered males.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: JulieCruise

What ever happened to good old fashioned conservative values in this country? They have eroded pretty damn quickly under Obam'a eight years of rule. I don't think there's any chance now for things to go back to the way they were...too much damage has been done to our society, by the Obama regime and its mainstream media counterparts

You mean the good old fashioned conservative values that had people lynching blacks and forced those blacks to sit at the back of the bus? Or the good old fashioned conservative values that outlawed interracial marriage? Or the good old fashioned conservative values that prevented women from making the same salary doing the same job as a man? Or the good old fashioned conservative values that made homosexuality against the law?

No thanks. Those "good old fashioned conservative values" are gone for a reason. They oppressed people who weren't white, heterosexual, cis gendered males.

Don't forget treated their women as property.. Lol

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

All of the claims about Hollywood, and from Great Britain, and all of the judges who pass ridiculously light sentences - it's clear that there is a vast network of these creeps out there. Looks like a lot are in positions of power.

Exactly! I posted a couple links early in the thread listing sex crimes committed by elected/government officials... I was surprised at how many judges were on those lists. And just recently the renewed claims of sexual abuse in Hollywood by Elijah Wood and others. They're just the most recent. The kid from "Leave it to Beaver" has been making the same claims for decades!!! (Mathers, I think?)

Well, that, and also that some of these behind-the-scenes people are flat out evil, and really do want to see people come to harm.

They really don't care who gets hurt in the process... even the very people -- transgender people -- they claim to be "helping." The more I think about it, the more alarmed I become at how many ways transgender people are being exploited and wronged. But that's a whole 'nother thread...

ETA: P.S. Sorry it took me so long to reply! For some reason I thought this thread was dead (maybe wishful thinking???) and got busy with other stuff I had been neglecting and needed attention...

a reply to: JulieCruise

First, my apologies for the late reply

What ever happened to good old fashioned conservative values in this country? They have eroded pretty damn quickly under Obam'a eight years of rule.

I get what your saying, but conservatives sure haven't walked their talk... so I prefer to think of them as "American" values. The so-called conservatives in office don't deserve any such honor!

I don't think there's any chance now for things to go back to the way they were...too much damage has been done to our society, by the Obama regime and its mainstream media counterparts

Unfortunately, I can't argue -- as much as I wish I could! I do think things will get worse before they get better, but I'm optimistic that we can regroup and rebuild and learn from our mistakes.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

All of the claims about Hollywood, and from Great Britain, and all of the judges who pass ridiculously light sentences - it's clear that there is a vast network of these creeps out there. Looks like a lot are in positions of power.

Exactly! I posted a couple links early in the thread listing sex crimes committed by elected/government officials... I was surprised at how many judges were on those lists. And just recently the renewed claims of sexual abuse in Hollywood by Elijah Wood and others. They're just the most recent. The kid from "Leave it to Beaver" has been making the same claims for decades!!! (Mathers, I think?)

I hadn't heard about Mathers! Feldman, yes, and now Wood, and wow, I wish they'd just give us names already!!

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Well, that, and also that some of these behind-the-scenes people are flat out evil, and really do want to see people come to harm.

They really don't care who gets hurt in the process... even the very people -- transgender people -- they claim to be "helping." The more I think about it, the more alarmed I become at how many ways transgender people are being exploited and wronged. But that's a whole 'nother thread...

ETA: P.S. Sorry it took me so long to reply! For some reason I thought this thread was dead (maybe wishful thinking???) and got busy with other stuff I had been neglecting and needed attention...

I have thought about that as well. I suspect that seeing people hurt from backlash would fit right into their plans. I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of a false flag, either. Like, oh, say a small "bomb" in a bathroom.....

No worries on the timing - been cases I didn't get to messages for a couple of weeks, just from being busy!

a reply to: markosity1973
Science determines that there are two distinct types of MtF transsexual, called homosexual (or androphilic) transsexuals, or HSTS and non-homosexual or autogynephilic (AGP). The former are uniquely attracted to men, from childhood. These display different characteristics on a wide range of parameters. (AGPs often prefer to be called 'transgender'.)

These are complicated because the AGP type in the West is so different from that found elsewhere as to appear to be a different one (but it's not.) I suspect that much of this difference is because of social intolerance in the West and a social concept called 'face' that applies in Asia. I am actively researching this.

The difference between heterosexual transvestite men and AGP transgenders _in the West_ is only one of degree. Most AGPs in the West retain a male desire for women, although typically they refer to this as a form of (pseudo) lesbianism. This means that women's concerns about allowing them to use women's safe spaces are legitimate.

HSTS have no sexual interest in women at all (obviously) nor in gay men. They are only attracted to masculine, straight men. They represent no threat to women whatsoever (Except that they might be more beautiful )

Unfortunately the ones making the noise in the US right now are AGPs. I think the HSTS are just staying out of the way and hoping that nobody will notice them minding their own business.

The difference between HSTS and AGPs is fundamental, not one of degree. It is derived from their primary sexual orientation. Autogynephiles are sexually attracted to femininity and HSTS to masculinity; so, surprise surprise, AGPs display many of the traits of heterosexual men and HSTS those of feminine gay men.

AGPs may change their practical orientation after transition but don't always. Not doing so may have to do with a lifetime's conditioning to be homophobic, common in the West. In Asia (the world's biggest laboratory of transsex by far) most AGPs present as attracted to men, with a few being bisexual and some analloerotic (asexual.) The classic late-transitioning AGP is almost noon-existent. Whether this is because they remain part-time transvestites (some do) is not clear.

These differences are almost certainly because of the different cultures, the drastically reduced homophobia and social intolerance in Asia and that fact that AGPs in Asia transition very much younger, on average, than in the West.

This is typically in their teens or twenties. Because of this they are unlikely ever to have had sex with women at all and so have not had that part of their sexuality reinforced by sexual reward. By contrast, Western AGPs, as boadicea points out, will likely have been married and have children by the time they transition.

There is some evidence that there is convergence between the Western and Asian models of AGP as social intolerance in the West reduces. But it's still to early to be definitive about that.
a reply to: markosity1973

I see no difference between the pseudoscience in this transphobic trash article and the pseudoscience of the "coc aine negro" that stupid bigots were pushing in the previous century. The hilarious part is that the OP truly believes this is some kind of objective reasoning, and that others join in supporting this hateful speech. It's nice when bigots self identify and publicly share their views. It gives us in the transgender community a sense of what's going on and a chance to point out how harmful this speech is not only to us, but to society as a whole.

a reply to: Boadicea

Great post, very informative, thanks for taking the time to make it.

a reply to: Boadicea

Do elephants get there own bathroom now?? I must confess never considered how unfairly they have been treated. Though I hope they use the women's bathroom instead of the men's is that wrong?

originally posted by: AmbroseMachine
I see no difference between the pseudoscience in this transphobic trash article and the pseudoscience of the "coc aine negro" that stupid bigots were pushing in the previous century.

That's a shame -- especially for those men who continue to suffer from the issues involved. The research (and therefore conclusions) are incomplete at this point, and create as many questions as answered, the issues are real, and real men are suffering from the condition. With the necessary research, it could be possible to find the appropriate treatment... and by "appropriate" I mean the most effective, offering the greatest relief of symptoms, with the fewest adverse reactions and the least invasive methods.

The hilarious part is that the OP truly believes this is some kind of objective reasoning, and that others join in supporting this hateful speech.

No, nothing hateful about it -- except to the extent that others will ignore not just the suffering of the men so afflicted, but in the most extreme cases, the victims of their quite literally uncontrollable impulses and urges. And it may be as simple as giving them androgen blockers or otherwise reducing the excess testosterone, etc. I understand these people need help -- not hate.

It's nice when bigots self identify and publicly share their views. It gives us in the transgender community a sense of what's going on and a chance to point out how harmful this speech is not only to us, but to society as a whole.

If calling me names in order to deny the truth and protect your ego is all you've got, then again, that's a shame... a crying shame. Especially because facts cannot cause nearly as much harm as denying the very real threat those so afflicted impose on the transgender community itself. With all the concern about my words and the harm they may indirectly cause someone, you deny and ignore the very real violence perpetuated by many autogynephiles on others in the LGBT community -- including themselves. (And, yes, I have looked at the Intimate Partner Violence statistics, as well as the many violent crimes committed by some transgender persons.)

a reply to: birdonwire

You're welcome -- and thank you! I was shocked to see your comment to this post it's been so long!!! But I guess it's the topic du jour, eh?

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Boadicea

Do elephants get there own bathroom now?? I must confess never considered how unfairly they have been treated. Though I hope they use the women's bathroom instead of the men's is that wrong?

I think just the pink ones do... and of course it would have to be the lady's room... they'd have the mirrors big enough for the elephant to primp and preen