Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Of course we know the answer, but it doesn't correspond with their fear mongering.

a reply to: redhorse

It is not an ad hominem attack to ask where it's coming from.

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: redhorse

You link goes to nothing.

Care to provide us with more than the one sentence you think proves your point?

Thank you kindly.

I thought it was worth a try to link it. I am a psychology student (3 weeks from my bachelors). This is from my Library. Most of the research regarding this you have to pay for one way or another, and I guess that's how it goes... It doesn't hit mainstream media because it is not the narrative that is popular (for whatever reason) with the public right now. It is real and part of that transsexual ah... matrix (for lack of a better word) if you will. You are wrong. Period. And psych students are being taught differently than the cultural narrative at the moment.

I am wrong period?

We'll just take your word as a psych student on that?

I've provided and others have provided multiple sources, academic sources, research studies, et. al. that disagree with your assertion.

Perhaps you should open up that scientific mind a bit as you progress through your studies?

Ah... the usual ad hominem from you when you feel backed into a corner. Yes, I am just a lowly student, but I know what I am seeing in the literature and you are mistaken.

Ad hominem? Where did I insult you or call you a name?

Aren't you a psych student?

Do you feel bad about that? I don't. I applaud your efforts.

I just want you to take a bit more scientific approach to life and learning.

You know what you are seeing in the literature, but you can't share it.

What would happen in one of your classes if you made such an assertion and couldn't back it up.

C'mon. You know what a fallacy the "appeal to authority" is ... particularly when it's your own.

a reply to: introvert

Perhaps you meant to reply to the other member. That quote is not from me.

You're the one who claimed to have access to a literature that nobody else can have access to.

a reply to: syrinx high priest

so wise [snip] how do we fix this ?

I would suggest the first step is to stop the name calling and insults and hate mongering.

I have also said I like the idea of adding gender neutral bathrooms, which would benefit many people who for one reason or another find sex-designated bathrooms impractical or inconvenient.

Another good step might be to ban convicted sex offenders from public bathrooms (which there is a precedence for), forbid them from changing their names and/or identities, and forbid them from disguising themselves in female dress in public places.

More cameras outside all bathrooms, recording those going in and out, may also provide some deterrent, and if that fails, some evidence.

Bathroom attendants would be effective, but expensive, so therefore probably impractical.

And probably most effective, and therefore most practical, would be to conduct the necessary research to properly understand this and other conditions associated with violence and sex offenses, then develop the proper treatments, and reduce -- if not eliminate -- the threat.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: introvert

Perhaps you meant to reply to the other member. That quote is not from me.

You're the one who claimed to have access to a literature that nobody else can have access to.

I believe that was redhorse. I've said nothing of the sort.

a reply to: introvert

OH! I apologize. I guess I hit on the wrong reply button.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician
If all churches were gone, they would still rape little boys in refugee camps, ice cream trucks or wherever.

Very true. Same could be said about predators in women's bathrooms. A predator is going to do what a predator wants to do, no matter what. Banning transgenders from the bathroom of their gender identity isn't going to stop it.

The women's room was safer than any other room out there before now, as only women were allowed to enter...now any man can, just by saying that he identifies as a woman. Your statement is not entirely true.

Were women's restrooms magical?

What an absurd statement.

Man Beats 9-Year-Old Girl in Jacksonville Best Buy Bathroom: Police

James Patrick Tadros, 29, is also charged with false imprisonment and criminal mischief in the incident which happened just after 5 p.m. Friday at the store at 9930 Southside Boulevard, according to a release from the Jacksonville Police Department.

According to the release, a witness heard someone screaming and crying inside the women's restroom and went inside to see if they needed help.

Good news, the little girl survived.

Bad news, the guy was not trans* or AGP or anything else ... and this happened in 2013 in a public restroom.

Give me a break. I didn't say they were bullet proof. It was just common knowledge that men didn't go into the women's rooms, and if they did, everyone thought it was weird, and they would just call the cops to remove or apprehend them. Sure, things would've happened in the women's room regardless, but not like on a scale that it will now...now that ALL men can enter without the cops being called.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: introvert

OH! I apologize. I guess I hit on the wrong reply button.

No worries.

I agree with your sentiment, though.

Even if I were to embrace this hypothesis - which I'm not, though I do not discount that this happens sometimes (there's enough variety in human behavior and thought that it would be foolish to dismiss the possibility that this happens occasionally imho) - and even if I were to extrapolate from the embracing of said hypothesis that there are thus significant (though I'm of the belief that we'd still be talking about a minority of a minority of a minority) groups of trans individuals with this postulated paraphilia "sharing bathrooms and locker rooms" with others...

... my questions are the same as they always are when it comes to these "trans people sharing spaces with cis people might be dangerous" arguments: what is it about the present equal rights movement and/or rulings with respect thereto that causes or increases the risk of harm to others? Why would it automatically follow that harm would result or be likely to result, any more than is already the case? What is being proposed or changed or made different that would constitute harm not previously already present or possible under the existing status quo? And why is this more of a presumed threat than, say, cisgender individuals with hypersexuality disorder? What is it about this hypothesized condition happening to sometimes coincide with being in transition, that makes it somehow allegedly more likely to prompt illicit or harmful behavior against others?

Until someone can explain to me definitively and persuasively why and how there is an implicit harm greater than that already present under the current status quo derived from granting and enshrining equal rights protections to transgender individuals, I cannot and will not countenance these arguments, which in the absence thereof, sound consistently like a moral panic predicated on the notion that we are opening some vaguely and ill defined Pandora's box, because people are engaging in a slippery slope fallacy.

Just MHO, feel free to disagree, I'm not here to argue about it, nor to change anyone's mind.

Peace.

a reply to: Boadicea

And probably most effective, and therefore most practical, would be to conduct the necessary research to properly understand this

50+ years of research and yet you are here unwilling to accept that.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: syrinx high priest

so wise [snip] how do we fix this ?

I would suggest the first step is to stop the name calling and insults and hate mongering.

I have also said I like the idea of adding gender neutral bathrooms, which would benefit many people who for one reason or another find sex-designated bathrooms impractical or inconvenient.

Another good step might be to ban convicted sex offenders from public bathrooms (which there is a precedence for), forbid them from changing their names and/or identities, and forbid them from disguising themselves in female dress in public places.

More cameras outside all bathrooms, recording those going in and out, may also provide some deterrent, and if that fails, some evidence.

Bathroom attendants would be effective, but expensive, so therefore probably impractical.

And probably most effective, and therefore most practical, would be to conduct the necessary research to properly understand this and other conditions associated with violence and sex offenses, then develop the proper treatments, and reduce -- if not eliminate -- the threat.

Or we all just keep using the same bathrooms we have been and this is a total non issue. Trans people have been using their identities bathroom a long time now.

The irony is the direct tie to sexual repression and violence. The more religiously fundamental the more the propensity for violence. Even in the world of apes when you study physical anthro. The more sexual the less violent.

So in a sense the radical fundamentalists are creating an issue as well.

a reply to: luthier

So in a sense the radical fundamentalists are creating an issue as well.

That's the very irony. They are endangering women and the children more!

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: luthier

...these and to have AGS you don't want to be woman.

Then why are those AGP who are taking estrogen, posting on asktransgender subreddit identifying as women? Why did the endo give then estrogen, and the therapist sign off on it?

Do you understand the differences between sexual orientation, gender identity and paraphilias?

You seem to be equating them, and they're just not equal.

For example, I am a gay, cisgendered man, with a slight interest (fake example so don't be grossed out) in plush toy animals.

Sexual orientation: gay

Gender Identity: Cisgendered man (I identify as a man and I am a biological man.)

Paraphilia: Plushophilia (this sounds like a joke but I assure you it is not) (Source: List of Paraphilias)

So, the folks you mentioned from reddit would fit into this schema as

Sexual orientation: gay

Gender identity: Transgendered MTF

Paraphilia: Autogynephila

Does that make more sense?

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

You got any statistics (from reliable sources) to prove that assertion? You can look at the states and cities that have already passed similar non-discrimination laws. Show me where there has been a noticeable increase in male predators attacking women and girls in restrooms after these laws have been passed.

Although there has been an increase lately (just watch the media, or pull up some YT video's). Hell, its all people are talking about right now. Unfortunately however, this law was just implemented, and statistics take time to get an overall count over the course of years, most of the time. There is no way around this. But the fact that you and I are having this very conversation...not to mention many others on the ATS board and many other forums, shows that it is a popular concern with the majority, and that's way more than a measly 0.003 TG minority.

originally posted by: Boadicea

I have also said I like the idea of adding gender neutral bathrooms, which would benefit many people who for one reason or another find sex-designated bathrooms impractical or inconvenient.

Not a bad idea but who's going to pay for it? Could get pretty expensive to change all public bathrooms everywhere.

Another good step might be to ban convicted sex offenders from public bathrooms (which there is a precedence for), forbid them from changing their names and/or identities

I'd like to know how you propose to do that, because I'd also like to do that to prohibit those same men from going to parking garages, elevators, walking trails, and all the other places where they attack women.

More cameras outside all bathrooms, recording those going in and out, may also provide some deterrent, and if that fails, some evidence.

I got no problems with cameras. It's the conservative groups who usually have a problem with camera monitoring.

And probably most effective, and therefore most practical, would be to conduct the necessary research to properly understand this and other conditions associated with violence and sex offenses, then develop the proper treatments, and reduce -- if not eliminate -- the threat.

That's probably the most difficult of all your suggestions to accomplish.

a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Nope - wrong answer. Some states/cities have had these laws in place for a decade.

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician
If all churches were gone, they would still rape little boys in refugee camps, ice cream trucks or wherever.

Very true. Same could be said about predators in women's bathrooms. A predator is going to do what a predator wants to do, no matter what. Banning transgenders from the bathroom of their gender identity isn't going to stop it.

The women's room was safer than any other room out there before now, as only women were allowed to enter...now any man can, just by saying that he identifies as a woman. Your statement is not entirely true.

Were women's restrooms magical?

What an absurd statement.

Man Beats 9-Year-Old Girl in Jacksonville Best Buy Bathroom: Police

James Patrick Tadros, 29, is also charged with false imprisonment and criminal mischief in the incident which happened just after 5 p.m. Friday at the store at 9930 Southside Boulevard, according to a release from the Jacksonville Police Department.

According to the release, a witness heard someone screaming and crying inside the women's restroom and went inside to see if they needed help.

Good news, the little girl survived.

Bad news, the guy was not trans* or AGP or anything else ... and this happened in 2013 in a public restroom.

Give me a break. I didn't say they were bullet proof. It was just common knowledge that men didn't go into the women's rooms, and if they did, everyone thought it was weird, and they would just call the cops to remove or apprehend them. Sure, things would've happened in the women's room regardless, but not like on a scale that it will now...now that ALL men can enter without the cops being called.

Common knowledge didn't keep the guy from harming the little girl.

That's my point. The issue (if there is one) is the relative safety of public restrooms NOT who uses which one.

There is nothing to keep store security from observing the situation or from calling the police. In fact, they should do so.

I've gone into women's restrooms more than once when it was a situation of "gotta go, gotta go." Most women laugh at my embarrassment.

It's just that the idea that a true sexual predator would be so stupid (as apparently some wingnut activists are) as to put on a dress, make a big scene and "pretend to be a woman" is patently absurd.

a reply to: Gryphon66

That is why I think that article about a man using girl's locker room in Seattle is an hoax.

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

You got any statistics (from reliable sources) to prove that assertion? You can look at the states and cities that have already passed similar non-discrimination laws. Show me where there has been a noticeable increase in male predators attacking women and girls in restrooms after these laws have been passed.

Although there has been an increase lately (just watch the media, or pull up some YT video's). Hell, its all people are talking about right now. Unfortunately however, this law was just implemented, and statistics take time to get an overall count over the course of years, most of the time. There is no way around this. But the fact that you and I are having this very conversation...not to mention many others on the ATS board and many other forums, shows that it is a popular concern with the majority, and that's way more than a measly 0.003 TG minority.

Trans people have been using the bathrooms of their identity for a long time. Before the laws. Not only thatmany corperations, schools, gov workers and universities have all had this policy in place a while.