Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Thank you for the scriptures and other words of encouragement. I know there's much truth to your words... but I don't want to believe it! What can I say? I'm an idealist, and in my own silly world view, I want to believe that when we know better we will do better.

I know I don't have all the answers. I know I'm not an expert. And I figure there's much room for improvement in my efforts too! But we're all just human, and even when the spirit is willing the flesh is weak. If the best I can expect for my efforts is that it is no longer the "elephant in the transgender bathroom" and is being talked about, considered, discussed and debated, that's a good thing.

Thanks. I will have to commend you on not taking the low road, and just bashing Christianity, like so many others would have. I respect your POV as well. Good luck on your search for truth.

a reply to: windword

No, you didn't make it up, someone else did, and you're just promoting the made up "thing" in order to demonize the trans sector of the population.

Really? What is even an appropriate response to such a presumptuous and insulting question? Isn't it just as valid to say that "you're just dismissing the "truth" in order to victimize the most vulnerable sector of the population? And where would that kind of pissing match get us? Nowhere. Is that all you got? Or is that your purpose?

I have no desire to demonize anyone. I refuse to be a willing tool in the divide-and-conquer game. Neither do I have any desire to see women and children victimized, and I refuse to be a willing tool in enabling and empowering predators of any kind or class. There are better options that give everyone what they need and doesn't hurt anyone.

a reply to: luthier

Well go back and read my posts you ignored.

It's pretty easy. Don't make me do the work you failed to do.

If it isn't worth your effort, it sure ain't worth mine. And it especially ain't worth ignoring other posters. So be it. We're done.

Good thread and with lots of info!

s/f

a reply to: Boadicea

OK here we go now its on you again again.

The Toronto study you use from Blanchards work is not accepted by the psych medical community. The study was unscientific and was blasted by peers. He set up catch 22 after catch 22, used no control group and made it impossible to not be AGs. You can research this all yourself.

What may be real about this THEORY is when a dr is talking with their patient about the fetish.

Everything else especially the way you are using Blanchards work is unscientific and has a lot of critiques which are all very easy to find on non biased sources. For instance use rational wiki or any medical site. The critiques are that the study you are using is garbage. By his peers mouths.

Second thing you don't get.

AGS will not transition or the hormones and life as women cancels their fetish. This is what is being observed today anyway.

Furthermore the traits you attach to AGS is completely unfounded. There is great arguement over what the fetish means psychologically and what it's outcome is.

I

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

You think a church is a place of solace? Churches should be shut down - they are a haven for predators - and I'm not just talking about the Catholics. Organized religion's dirty little secret has been going on for YEARS.

But because this country is predominantly Protestant, more children are abused by Protestant ministers than by Catholic priests. In 1990, the Freedom from Religion Foundation issued a study on pedophilia by clergy. At that time, two clergy per week were being arrested in North America for sex crimes against children. Fifty-eight percent of them were Protestant.

religiouschildabuse.blogspot.com...

Only one attack is too many. Shut them all down.

It seems that you only partially read my post...and didn't even read it that well. I never said once, that a church was a place of solace. I said, at one point in time...the women's bathroom, used to be a place of solace for women and female children. That is no more, as pedophiles who just parrot the words "I identify as a woman", will now let them in there, to do what it is that they do best. The same goes for men who want to rape women. Yes, it will happen regardless, but it seems that now they have another door opened up to them. Read slower net time, instead of just seeing what you want to, and thinking of an illusory response, that has nothing to do with what I was even talking about.

The best part is that YOU actually made my point, when I said that politically correct people will read your post, but will only see what they want to see, and respond accordingly. That is what you did.

Um, for all the people saying autogynephilia does not exist, I suggest you peruse these threads posted by MtF trans people on reddit. (Content Warning)

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Just 3 examples. There are oh so many.

a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Then you DO agree that churches are not a place of solace, and should be shut down to eliminate one more place that predators can go to do their thing.

Good.

Well, at least some, though seemingly unconsciously, have no problem revealing that the real issue here is with different sexual orientations and gender identities than what they consider "normal" ... and as justification, the answer is "Jesus."

I'm not going to approach that again, except to say, statistically, there are far, far more Christian pedophiles using churches, Christian day camps, Christian schools, etc. as their hunting ground than any Trans* (or Gay, or even Transvestite) ever thought of.

Yet, what is being done in those venues to keep kids safe? Where is the outrage and calls to shut down churches?

It's not about safety. It's not about women and children. It's about keeping the "wrong people" in their place in society.

The assertion that autogynephilia or "AGP" is even an accepted paraphilic disorder is mistaken.

There is not now, nor has there ever been consensus in the medical or psychological communities that this Blanchard theory had any therapeutic or pathological or diagnostic credibility whatsoever.

In terms of actual medical science, paraphilias are sexual excitement associated with objects (not people). Paraphilic disorders occur when a paraphilia causes someone to :

• feel personal distress about their interest, not merely distress resulting from society’s disapproval;or

• have a sexual desire or behavior that involves another person’s psychological distress, injury, or death, or a desire for sexual behaviors involving unwilling persons or persons unable to give legal consent.

DSM V - "Paraphilic Disorders"

That's it. Blanchard's theory separates Trans* Women (MTF) who are attracted to men from those who are attracted to women. It is dated, not scientific and has never, ever been generally accepted in the medical, psychiatric, psychological, counseling or scientific field.

Blanchard's Autogynephilia Theory: A Critique

Over the last 20 years, Ray Blanchard, Ph.D., with a variety of coauthors and collaborators, has proposed a theory that links the sexual orientation of male-to-female transsexuals with the presence or absence of autogynephilia (erotic arousal by the thought or image of “himself” as a woman). Blanchard's Autogynephilia Theory suggests that the association between sexual orientation and autogynephilia among male-to-female transsexuals is clinically important and the association is always (or almost always) present. Although the theory has been criticized by clinicians, researchers, and transsexuals themselves, it has not been critiqued in a peer-reviewed article previously. This article will attempt to fill that gap. Key studies on which the theory is based will be analyzed and alternative interpretations of the data presented. I conclude that although autogynephilia exists, the theory is flawed.

~~~~

Autogynephilia - A Disputed Diagnosis

Blanchard bases this on work he did not with transsexuals who had transitioned, but with anyone who came to his mental institution by force or choice to discuss a gender issue. Blanchard's studies have never been repeated, and his ideas have been widely ignored until Anne Lawrence latched onto "autogynephilia" as a political identity. Since that time, Lawrence has been very busy trying to codify this spurious diagnosis as a legitimate descriptor.

~~~~~~~~

Etc. etc.

But let's just stop a minute and think about this.

Autogyenephilia exists. It does, as a descriptor of a paraphilia.

OP's assertion is that a) autogyenephilia is a subset of a Trans* gender identity. (It isn't it's a paraphilia.)

Then, OP asserts that some portion of autogyenephiliacs (AGPs, why not) have a higher incidence of violent crime.

Then, OP asserts that this higher incidence of violent crime among some "AGPs" is proof positive that the threat of violence against women and girls in public restrooms from AGPs outweighs all other concerns about who should be able to use a public facility without government intrusion into their privacy.

Here, let's go back to OPs first paragraph ...

originally posted by: Boadicea
Autogynephilia is the dark side of the transgender issues that no one wants to talk about... and, indeed, many are trying to very hard to make sure we don't even know about. The level of deliberate deceit and dishonesty is despicable. And dangerous to women and girls. The talking points and buzzwords have been established, on both political sides, and autogynephilia proves the mistruths, half truths, and outright untruths of them all.

We don't even have to trudge again through any of the rest of the loaded statements, poor reasoning, faulty references, out-of-date citations, etc.

Why, is the simple fact that some men are sexually excited by dressing in women's clothing and thinking of themselves as a woman part of any "dark side"? Why use that terminology? Why cast these individuals as someone who is what ... evil, sinful, fearsome ... whatever synonyms spring to mind when one hears "dark side" ...

Then we are told "no one wants to talk about AGP" which is simply patently not true. It's been an issue since Ray Blanchard made it up.

Then we launch into pure meaningless agenda ... "talking points and buzzwords have been established" which ones?

OP just said that no one is talking about "AGP" so what "buzzwords" is she referring to?

Why the standard descriptions of gender identities and sexual orientations of course ... as is made clear in the next 1000 words or so.

So, the OPs logic was that no one is talking about AGP, but everyone is lying or half-lying about Trans* issues particularly in regard to equal rights.

There is an accepted medical difference between gender identities (Trans*, non-binary, genderqueer) sexual orientations (gay, straight, bi, fluid) paraphilias (kinks, fetishes, sexualization of objects) and paraphilic disorders (pedophilia, zoophilia, rape, necrophilia, etc.that CAUSE HARM TO HUMAN INDIVIDUALS EITHER THE PARAPHILIC OR THEIR VICTIMS).

The equation of these four distinct and separate terms is the main issue with the the OPs claims.

Sorry for the length ... got the bit in my teeth.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I don't think it has been proven that Autogynephilia is not a clinical term or has been dismissed by medical science, and I only used the acronym AGP because I saw it used in this thread and it was easier to write. There is clearly confusion about what this term means and how it applies, if at all to the LGBT community. We're seeing in this thread that many LGBT people don't wanna claim them either.

I've tried to be up front about disclosing that I have been directly effected by a man that I have come to believe was APG . I don't wanna re-hash all this here, I've written about it on ATS in the past. It's over for me, other then it still hurts our child...he died young and no doubt he suffered. He explained it to me as a sexual fetish that started in puberty that he believed was fueled by porn and became a masturbation ritual. I'm over being angry, I'm not sure you ever get over being hurt about the whole messed up situation.

I'm the last person in the world to try and decide anything for anyone, other then myself. I grew up in probably the most liberal state in the USA concerning LGBT rights and acceptance. I also know and have seen 1st hand that there are big difference's within that community itself.

originally posted by: new_here
Um, for all the people saying autogynephilia does not exist, I suggest you peruse these threads posted by MtF trans people on reddit. (Content Warning)

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Just 3 examples. There are oh so many.

It exists; it is not what OP asserts it is.

originally posted by: new_here
Um, for all the people saying autogynephilia does not exist, I suggest you peruse these threads posted by MtF trans people on reddit. (Content Warning)

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Just 3 examples. There are oh so many.

I am old enough to remember some trans men that said dressing like women turned them on.

a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

love your avatar bg!

originally posted by: MountainLaurel
a reply to: Gryphon66

I don't think it has been proven that Autogynephilia is not a clinical term or has been dismissed by medical science, and I only used the acronym AGP because I saw it used in this thread and it was easier to write. There is clearly confusion about what this term means and how it applies, if at all to the LGBT community. We're seeing in this thread that many LGBT people don't wanna claim them either.

I've tried to be up front about disclosing that I have been directly effected by a man that I have come to believe was APG . I don't wanna re-hash all this here, I've written about it on ATS in the past. It's over for me, other then it still hurts our child...he died young and no doubt he suffered. He explained it to me as a sexual fetish that started in puberty that he believed was fueled by porn and became a masturbation ritual. I'm over being angry, I'm not sure you ever get over being hurt about the whole messed up situation.

I'm the last person in the world to try and decide anything for anyone, other then myself. I grew up in probably the most liberal state in the USA concerning LGBT rights and acceptance. I also know and have seen 1st hand that there are big difference's within that community itself.

It is a clinical term for a kind of paraphilia. It is not the subset of Trans* gender identities that OP is asserting after Ray Blanchard.

AGP is a useful acronym as I just discovered.

It's not that we "don't want to claim them" it's that paraphilias are not directly related to sexual orientation and gender identities. Also, except in the case of paraphilic disorder (a pathology) people do not generally define their entire identity around a paraphilia.

I sensed that you had a personal edge to this issue. I am sorry if my words rehashed that or made you uncomfortable.

My point is simple.

Paraphilias are not directly related to sexual orientation or gender identity.

Autogynephilia is not what OP asserts it to be (after Ray Blanchard).

Further autogynephilia does not automatically lead to violent crime, as OP asserted it did.

Therefore there is no relationship between AGP and Trans* equal rights.

Again, sorry if I caused discomfort.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: new_here
Um, for all the people saying autogynephilia does not exist, I suggest you peruse these threads posted by MtF trans people on reddit. (Content Warning)

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Just 3 examples. There are oh so many.

It exists; it is not what OP asserts it is.

Ok, I'm curious about your statement above that AGP is not a subset of transgender. What do you mean by that? Clearly it transgender MtT are the ones turned on at the vision of themselves as women.

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: new_here
Um, for all the people saying autogynephilia does not exist, I suggest you peruse these threads posted by MtF trans people on reddit. (Content Warning)

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Just 3 examples. There are oh so many.

It exists; it is not what OP asserts it is.

Ok, I'm curious about your statement above that AGS is not a subset of transgender. What do you mean by that? Clearly it transgender MtT are the ones turned on at the vision of themselves as women.

Except the transition kills the fetish. So they can't really be trans per sae

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: MountainLaurel
a reply to: Gryphon66

I don't think it has been proven that Autogynephilia is not a clinical term or has been dismissed by medical science, and I only used the acronym AGP because I saw it used in this thread and it was easier to write. There is clearly confusion about what this term means and how it applies, if at all to the LGBT community. We're seeing in this thread that many LGBT people don't wanna claim them either.

I've tried to be up front about disclosing that I have been directly effected by a man that I have come to believe was APG . I don't wanna re-hash all this here, I've written about it on ATS in the past. It's over for me, other then it still hurts our child...he died young and no doubt he suffered. He explained it to me as a sexual fetish that started in puberty that he believed was fueled by porn and became a masturbation ritual. I'm over being angry, I'm not sure you ever get over being hurt about the whole messed up situation.

I'm the last person in the world to try and decide anything for anyone, other then myself. I grew up in probably the most liberal state in the USA concerning LGBT rights and acceptance. I also know and have seen 1st hand that there are big difference's within that community itself.

It is a clinical term for a kind of paraphilia. It is not the subset of Trans* gender identities that OP is asserting after Ray Blanchard.

AGP is a useful acronym as I just discovered.

It's not that we "don't want to claim them" it's that paraphilias are not directly related to sexual orientation and gender identities. Also, except in the case of paraphilic disorder (a pathology) people do not generally define their entire identity around a paraphilia.

I sensed that you had a personal edge to this issue. I am sorry if my words rehashed that or made you uncomfortable.

My point is simple.

Paraphilias are not directly related to sexual orientation or gender identity.

Autogynephilia is not what OP asserts it to be (after Ray Blanchard).

Further autogynephilia does not automatically lead to violent crime, as OP asserted it did.

Therefore there is no relationship between AGP and Trans* equal rights.

Again, sorry if I caused discomfort.

Thanks man I am on a cell and haven't been able to get it down as neatly as you have.

Nice job.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Boadicea

The Toronto study you use from Blanchards work is not accepted by the psych medical community. The study was unscientific and was blasted by peers. He set up catch 22 after catch 22, used no control group and made it impossible to not be AGs. You can research this all yourself.

As I stated, the premise has been disputed but not discarded. And while there have been criticisms of his methodology, the same results have been reproduced at least once. It has also been noted that further research is necessary.

From Wikipedia:

Supporters of the theory include Anne Lawrence, J. Michael Bailey, James Cantor, and others who say that there are significant differences between the two proposed groups, including sexuality, age of transition, ethnicity, IQ, fetishism, and quality of adjustment. Under the theory, homosexual transsexuals are predicted to begin transitioning earlier in life, generally before turning 30, which accounts for their supposedly better adjustment. They are also more likely to come from poorer, non-white and/or immigrant backgrounds,[3] have lower IQs,[4] as well as be by definition exclusively attracted to men. Autogynephilic transsexuals are more likely to be attracted to women, exclusively or not, or to be asexual. They are also said under the theory to display more fetishistic or otherwise paraphilic arousal.

Criticism of the research and theory has come from Charles Allen Moser, Julia Serano, Jaimie Veale, Larry Nuttbrock, John Bancroft, and others who say that the theory is poorly representative of trans women, and reduces gender identity to a matter of attraction. While Nuttbrock criticized it, he and his colleagues conducted research that fully supported the theory and replicated the most important findings of Blanchard's earlier work.

What may be real about this THEORY is when a dr is talking with their patient about the fetish.

I don't know what you mean by that. Obviously, the patient either does or does not have the condition, both while talking to his doctor and when he's not talking to his doctor. I'm sure you don't mean to say otherwise... but that's all I'm getting from that.

Everything else especially the way you are using Blanchards work is unscientific and has a lot of critiques which are all very easy to find on non biased sources. For instance use rational wiki or any medical site. The critiques are that the study you are using is garbage. By his peers mouths.

That's a willful half-truth, as you also know there are peers -- and self-identified individuals -- who find much truth in the premise.

Second thing you don't get.

AGS will not transition or the hormones and life as women cancels their fetish. This is what is being observed today anyway.

Actually, I do "get that" -- and more. As I have already stated, hormonal treatment does seem to minimize symptoms, even to the point of some originally heterosexual transsexuals becoming asexual. It may be a result of blocking testosterone and other male hormones, moreso than female estrogens. All of which needs further study.

And as you noted, not all men will transition, or some will have the "top" surgery but not the "bottom" surgery, and some will have no surgery at all, and some will only live a part-time transgender lifestyle. And all of these fall under the big "T" umbrella.

Furthermore the traits you attach to AGS is completely unfounded. There is great arguement over what the fetish means psychologically and what it's outcome is.

So, again, there is dispute -- but discussion, and therefore acknowledgment of something, so really not unfounded.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: new_here
Um, for all the people saying autogynephilia does not exist, I suggest you peruse these threads posted by MtF trans people on reddit. (Content Warning)

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Just 3 examples. There are oh so many.

It exists; it is not what OP asserts it is.

Ok, I'm curious about your statement above that AGS is not a subset of transgender. What do you mean by that? Clearly it transgender MtT are the ones turned on at the vision of themselves as women.

Except the transition kills the fetish. So they can't really be trans per sae

I'm not sure I follow... so these men who want be women go to a therapist and endocrinologist and get their estrogen and grow breasts just like every other trans person, and get turned on by their own body. At what point does the transition kill their fetish? Also, do you think they lied to their therapist about their motives, or is the therapy just not indepth enough?

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: new_here
Um, for all the people saying autogynephilia does not exist, I suggest you peruse these threads posted by MtF trans people on reddit. (Content Warning)

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Just 3 examples. There are oh so many.

It exists; it is not what OP asserts it is.

Ok, I'm curious about your statement above that AGP is not a subset of transgender. What do you mean by that? Clearly it transgender MtT are the ones turned on at the vision of themselves as women.

AGP is a sexual fetish or kink or paraphilia. In some cases, perhaps, a paraphilic disorder.

It has nothing to do with someone's GENDER IDENTITY. Gender identity is not merely about "being turned on" that is paraphilia.