BREXIT: the full movie. Why England MUST vote to leave the EU.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Referencing a website owned by a Scottish nationalist is hardly going to assuage concerns about group-think! Please, feel free to really disprove what I have said. In your own words. Note that the owner is also a correspondent for a Russian propaganda rag, Sputnik News, so hardly paid to parrot an opinion.

This is all slightly off topic. Let's move on shall we?

To topic. Are you in, or out from the faceless bureaucracy that is the UK Government Brussels?

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Referencing a website owned by a Scottish nationalist is hardly going to assuage concerns about group-think! Please, feel free to really disprove what I have said. In your own words. Note that the owner is also a correspondent for a Russian propaganda rag, Sputnik News, so hardly paid to parrot an opinion.

This is all slightly off topic. Let's move on shall we?

To topic. Are you in, or out from the faceless bureaucracy that is the UK Government Brussels?

I don't know, the topic is why 'England' must leave the EU, From Solos's and quire a lot of us up here point of view, England leaving the EU is entirely fine.

On the broader issue of the UK leaving I am quite firmly in the undecided camp, have no great affection for the EU in its current form, however find the alternative being offered by the majority of the Leave campaign to be equally unappealing.

I will say I think the campaigns run by both sides have been absolutely terrible and it wouldn't hugely surprise me if voter turnout was low due to the extreme negativity on both sides.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Referencing a website owned by a Scottish nationalist is hardly going to assuage concerns about group-think! Please, feel free to really disprove what I have said. In your own words. Note that the owner is also a correspondent for a Russian propaganda rag, Sputnik News, so hardly paid to parrot an opinion.

This is all slightly off topic. Let's move on shall we?

To topic. Are you in, or out from the faceless bureaucracy that is the UK Government Brussels?

I don't know, the topic is why 'England' must leave the EU, From Solos's and quire a lot of us up here point of view, England leaving the EU is entirely fine.

On the broader issue of the UK leaving I am quite firmly in the undecided camp, have no great affection for the EU in its current form, however find the alternative being offered by the majority of the Leave campaign to be equally unappealing.

I will say I think the campaigns run by both sides have been absolutely terrible and it wouldn't hugely surprise me if voter turnout was low due to the extreme negativity on both sides.

I'm surprised it's not been called off as both sides run out of bull#.

a reply to: ScepticScot

On the broader issue of the UK leaving I am quite firmly in the undecided camp,.....

At least you appear to be considering your options before making your mind up.

...... have no great affection for the EU in its current form,....

How could any self-respecting and reasonably intelligent person have any affection whatsoever for the EU in its current manifestation.
And the thing is it openly states its desire for even further big government with greater powers for the centralised and bureaucratic EU Commission and Brussels in general.

....however find the alternative being offered by the majority of the Leave campaign to be equally unappealing.

The Brexit campaign has been truly awful.

Is that deliberate?
Possibly.

And I feel Boris Johnson has been revealed as the oaf he really is.

But again, is that deliberate?
Probably.
I suspect he is being lined up as 'the only man who can re-unite the Tory Party' after the referendum - our next Prime Minister - a truly horrendous prospect for many of us.

One of the problems is that there is no co-ordinated plan or vision how we as a union of nations can move forwards delivering the positive changes many of us wish to see.
We don't want just more of the same, we want reform.

I will say I think the campaigns run by both sides have been absolutely terrible....

Absolutely dreadful.

....and it wouldn't hugely surprise me if voter turnout was low due to the extreme negativity on both sides.

Apathy and indifference only serve to further the wishes of those who seek to maintain the status quo and their exploitation and dominance of the current system.

Interesting and well worth a read.
Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

The typical Brexiter whinge about the 28 member European Commission being unelected is a ridiculous red herring. The UK has an unelected head of state, an unelected central bank, an unelected civil service and the most bloated unelected legislative chamber in the entire world (the 800+ member House of Lords). However, anyone with any knowledge about the "do it again until you get it right" Irish referenda on the Lisbon treaty, the TTIP corporate power grab or the appalling treatment of Greece by the European Commission-ECB-IMF "troika" will know about the contempt for democracy that runs through many of the EU institutions. Of all of the countries in the EU, the charge that the EU institutions are undemocratic looks by far the most ridiculous coming from the UK. Our bloated unelected House of Lords is an extraordinary affront to democracy in comparison the the European Commission. The democratically unaccountable European Central Bank is mirrored by the democratically unaccountable Bank of England. What is more, the current UK government stand charged with cheating their way into power by fraudulently misdeclaring their expenses in over two dozen marginal constituencies. Voting for Brexit because you dislike the anti-democratic elements of the EU, and in the process handing far more power to the bloated anti-democratic House of Lords and a Tory government that stand accused of unlawfully cheating their way into power makes no sense whatever.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Interesting and well worth a read.
Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

The typical Brexiter whinge about the 28 member European Commission being unelected is a ridiculous red herring. The UK has an unelected head of state, an unelected central bank, an unelected civil service and the most bloated unelected legislative chamber in the entire world (the 800+ member House of Lords). However, anyone with any knowledge about the "do it again until you get it right" Irish referenda on the Lisbon treaty, the TTIP corporate power grab or the appalling treatment of Greece by the European Commission-ECB-IMF "troika" will know about the contempt for democracy that runs through many of the EU institutions. Of all of the countries in the EU, the charge that the EU institutions are undemocratic looks by far the most ridiculous coming from the UK. Our bloated unelected House of Lords is an extraordinary affront to democracy in comparison the the European Commission. The democratically unaccountable European Central Bank is mirrored by the democratically unaccountable Bank of England. What is more, the current UK government stand charged with cheating their way into power by fraudulently misdeclaring their expenses in over two dozen marginal constituencies. Voting for Brexit because you dislike the anti-democratic elements of the EU, and in the process handing far more power to the bloated anti-democratic House of Lords and a Tory government that stand accused of unlawfully cheating their way into power makes no sense whatever.

So your saying because we already have undemocratic institutions in the UK, that makes it acceptable to have even more undemocratic institutions from the EU and we are 'ridiculous' to complain about them? Pathetic argument.

You mention how our BoE is undemocratic, but so is the ECB. The ECB along with the EU and IMF, forces austerity onto the people with no mandate what so ever. In fact, Greece had a referendum REJECTING the austerity/bailout package, only for an even worse austerity package to be forced on them a couple of weeks later.

You're correct we don't vote in our prime minister directly (we vote for our MP's), but at least we know which party that MP is in and their manifesto. We don't get that AT ALL with the EU commission. They have the sole right to propose to create, amend or repeal the laws and regulations.

originally posted by: 83Liberty

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Interesting and well worth a read.
Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

The typical Brexiter whinge about the 28 member European Commission being unelected is a ridiculous red herring. The UK has an unelected head of state, an unelected central bank, an unelected civil service and the most bloated unelected legislative chamber in the entire world (the 800+ member House of Lords). However, anyone with any knowledge about the "do it again until you get it right" Irish referenda on the Lisbon treaty, the TTIP corporate power grab or the appalling treatment of Greece by the European Commission-ECB-IMF "troika" will know about the contempt for democracy that runs through many of the EU institutions. Of all of the countries in the EU, the charge that the EU institutions are undemocratic looks by far the most ridiculous coming from the UK. Our bloated unelected House of Lords is an extraordinary affront to democracy in comparison the the European Commission. The democratically unaccountable European Central Bank is mirrored by the democratically unaccountable Bank of England. What is more, the current UK government stand charged with cheating their way into power by fraudulently misdeclaring their expenses in over two dozen marginal constituencies. Voting for Brexit because you dislike the anti-democratic elements of the EU, and in the process handing far more power to the bloated anti-democratic House of Lords and a Tory government that stand accused of unlawfully cheating their way into power makes no sense whatever.

They have the sole right to propose to create, amend or repeal the laws and regulations.

Just like a Tory majority government then.?

As someone said on here earlier..."we just want to take our country back". I would be very careful who we hand it over to. In or out of Europe we, Joe public, will have very little say what happens after.

I've came to the conclusion that i know why Cameron and co are on the remain side..(no laughing at the back)..It's all a sham. Cameron and Co are playing the game..Badly and deliberately badly. It's a dream ticket for them to be out of Europe and in total control over the masses without interference from Brussels courts of law.

This has been the plan all along. Divide and Conquer. Then if it all goes tits up when we do leave they can blame the stupid public for voting for it.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Just like a Tory majority government then.?

Just like any democratic government , regardless of the colour. However, we can remove the Tories, or Labour, or even our local MP if they are shown wanting. We can do very little to the EU. The EU is both faceless and unaccountable.

That said, there are some things that the EU does really well, which would have been the core purpose. Science and technology is good. It also does promote freedoms and transparency in government, so long it's not the EU!

originally posted by: 83Liberty

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Interesting and well worth a read.
Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

The typical Brexiter whinge about the 28 member European Commission being unelected is a ridiculous red herring. The UK has an unelected head of state, an unelected central bank, an unelected civil service and the most bloated unelected legislative chamber in the entire world (the 800+ member House of Lords). However, anyone with any knowledge about the "do it again until you get it right" Irish referenda on the Lisbon treaty, the TTIP corporate power grab or the appalling treatment of Greece by the European Commission-ECB-IMF "troika" will know about the contempt for democracy that runs through many of the EU institutions. Of all of the countries in the EU, the charge that the EU institutions are undemocratic looks by far the most ridiculous coming from the UK. Our bloated unelected House of Lords is an extraordinary affront to democracy in comparison the the European Commission. The democratically unaccountable European Central Bank is mirrored by the democratically unaccountable Bank of England. What is more, the current UK government stand charged with cheating their way into power by fraudulently misdeclaring their expenses in over two dozen marginal constituencies. Voting for Brexit because you dislike the anti-democratic elements of the EU, and in the process handing far more power to the bloated anti-democratic House of Lords and a Tory government that stand accused of unlawfully cheating their way into power makes no sense whatever.

So your saying because we already have undemocratic institutions in the UK, that makes it acceptable to have even more undemocratic institutions from the EU and we are 'ridiculous' to complain about them? Pathetic argument.

You mention how our BoE is undemocratic, but so is the ECB. The ECB along with the EU and IMF, forces austerity onto the people with no mandate what so ever. In fact, Greece had a referendum REJECTING the austerity/bailout package, only for an even worse austerity package to be forced on them a couple of weeks later.

You're correct we don't vote in our prime minister directly (we vote for our MP's), but at least we know which party that MP is in and their manifesto. We don't get that AT ALL with the EU commission. They have the sole right to propose to create, amend or repeal the laws and regulations.

When you say the Bank of England is undemocratic, you were referring to a comment from a blog from someone who sounds like they just like to grumble that said it's unelected, not undemocratic.

But I would argue the logic of both statements. Unelected - unelected by who? The BoE is independent of government and has been since the last Labour administration. Is it suggesting there should be a public vote on either the bank or its members? Why, on what grounds?

Undemocratic? How so? Internally decisions are taking by the majority vote (witness interest rates as an example) - is that not the sign of democracy?

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: 83Liberty

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Interesting and well worth a read.
Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

The typical Brexiter whinge about the 28 member European Commission being unelected is a ridiculous red herring. The UK has an unelected head of state, an unelected central bank, an unelected civil service and the most bloated unelected legislative chamber in the entire world (the 800+ member House of Lords). However, anyone with any knowledge about the "do it again until you get it right" Irish referenda on the Lisbon treaty, the TTIP corporate power grab or the appalling treatment of Greece by the European Commission-ECB-IMF "troika" will know about the contempt for democracy that runs through many of the EU institutions. Of all of the countries in the EU, the charge that the EU institutions are undemocratic looks by far the most ridiculous coming from the UK. Our bloated unelected House of Lords is an extraordinary affront to democracy in comparison the the European Commission. The democratically unaccountable European Central Bank is mirrored by the democratically unaccountable Bank of England. What is more, the current UK government stand charged with cheating their way into power by fraudulently misdeclaring their expenses in over two dozen marginal constituencies. Voting for Brexit because you dislike the anti-democratic elements of the EU, and in the process handing far more power to the bloated anti-democratic House of Lords and a Tory government that stand accused of unlawfully cheating their way into power makes no sense whatever.

So your saying because we already have undemocratic institutions in the UK, that makes it acceptable to have even more undemocratic institutions from the EU and we are 'ridiculous' to complain about them? Pathetic argument.

You mention how our BoE is undemocratic, but so is the ECB. The ECB along with the EU and IMF, forces austerity onto the people with no mandate what so ever. In fact, Greece had a referendum REJECTING the austerity/bailout package, only for an even worse austerity package to be forced on them a couple of weeks later.

You're correct we don't vote in our prime minister directly (we vote for our MP's), but at least we know which party that MP is in and their manifesto. We don't get that AT ALL with the EU commission. They have the sole right to propose to create, amend or repeal the laws and regulations.

When you say the Bank of England is undemocratic, you were referring to a comment from a blog from someone who sounds like they just like to grumble that said it's unelected, not undemocratic.

But I would argue the logic of both statements. Unelected - unelected by who? The BoE is independent of government and has been since the last Labour administration. Is it suggesting there should be a public vote on either the bank or its members? Why, on what grounds?

Undemocratic? How so? Internally decisions are taking by the majority vote (witness interest rates as an example) - is that not the sign of democracy?

I never said the BoE is undemocratic, I said the article said that it was (which the article didn't, as you correctly pointed out). That was me misreading it.

I then went on to say how the ECB was undemocratic. I think I'm correct in that statement considering it knew full well that the Greek people overwhelmingly rejected the austerity/bailout package via referendum.

Here's a nice talk, Peter Hitchens details the German roots of the EU.
He also talks about what I understand was why Russia annexed Crimea.
At the end someone argues with him about his thesis but he puts them straight.

www.youtube.com...

Speculation
Since the UK army has recently warned about EU commanding its army
AND the EU is keeping their army plans "secret" until after brexit.
Could this mean something is going to happen with NATO and the EU - new laws to open up access?
Also I would ask why David Cameron, who is pro EU, offer a referendum for the British people
to exit and possibly Sweden to follow which would essentially destroy something they have spent
over half a century to create?
It doesn't add up to me....
Limbo

fullfact.org...
www.express.co.uk...
www.rt.com...
www.thenewamerican.com...
www.express.co.uk...

a reply to: Limbo

The Express article talks about the (pro Brexit) Defence Minister, not 'the army'. There are also several former forces leads who have talked against staying in due to what they call a European army. The full facts page you've linked shows this isn't actually the case at all.

If the EU is 'keeping their army plans "secret" until after brexit', isn't it convenient that a pro brexit newspaper seems to be in on the "secret"?

a reply to: uncommitted

It's also the Express, which is a waste of paper/bandwidth. It hasn't been a decent paper for 40 years. I wouldn't line the bottom of a cat litter tray with it.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
a reply to: uncommitted

It's also the Express, which is a waste of paper/bandwidth. It hasn't been a decent paper for 40 years. I wouldn't line the bottom of a cat litter tray with it.

But it's soft, strong and highly absorbent.

Well, I'm out on the 23rd. Unless "they" cock something up at the poling station. Which, if that happens, smacks of conspiracy.

Personally, I feel the result will be to remain, sadly.

I'm in the UK and have gotten my postal vote.
Normally I would vote stay in but every time I see a politician scare mongering and obviously lying I think sod em vote out to piss them off.
Gonna watch the TV debate and then decide.

I totally agree that both campaigns have been awful.

It's a very complicated subject for the average guy in the street to get his head around, and the media haven't been much help (as usual!) in trying to simplify it down so that the voters can really understand the implications of voting either way.

I am sick and tired of the campaigns slinging "facts" and figures about, because the vast majority of these FACTS are NOT FACTS and never could be. They are speculation based on forecasts which historically have been proven (time and time again) to be notoriously unreliable.

No one can say with certainty that Immigration would rise/fall by x percent, or that exports would rise/fall by x million because there are far too many variables to take into account. It's all "educated" guesswork and the scaremongering that we (in Scotland) experienced during the Scottish Independence Referendum campaigns has been rearing it's very ugly head AGAIN.

It's such an important decision, but I can see a poor turnout because many people just don't have a clear indication of the ramifications of placing their vote one way or the other.

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

I totally agree that both campaigns have been awful.

I couldn't agree more.
Just a constant stream of bollocks - smoke in mirrors.

I posted this in another thread but it seems so applicable;



There's an agenda being played out here and whatever it is it certainly isn't for the benefits of the likes of you and I.

a reply to: Freeborn

^^^ Never a truer word was spoken Free! ^^^

G