BREXIT: the full movie. Why England MUST vote to leave the EU.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: 83Liberty
I am asking for ONE strong positive reason for staying in the EU.

I'll give two.

1. Access to science mega-projects. Whether the Europeans will exclude UK involvement in some of the mega-projects and cut off their noses is questionable, but with the French and the Germans running the European bandwagon should the UK leave, it is a plausible possibility.

I don't think you need to be a member of the EU to have access to the science projects considering Israel, Norway and Switzerland all have access. To suggest that the remaining EU member states would purposely decline our science input because of a Brexit is speculation and not 'positive' which is what I have asked for.

2. The one and half million Britons living elsewhere in Europe may have problems.

This is NOT a positive argument. It is fear-mongering speculation.

Any other takers who can give me YOUR single most STRONG and POSITIVE reason for Remaining in the EU?

originally posted by: 83Liberty
I don't think you need to be a member of the EU to have access to the science projects considering Israel, Norway and Switzerland all have access. To suggest that the remaining EU member states would purposely decline our science input because of a Brexit is speculation and not 'positive' which is what I have asked for.

It depends on the project. However, if it is a European mega-project then the authors of those projects dictate the terms of partnership of other nations. If you are not around the table from the beginning then you just pick up the pieces. There is a good chance that in time UK would derive less and less benefits, as core members would seek to monopolise key research and academic fields. I have seen no evidence to allay this concern.

However, as you seem to be dismissing everyone's particular views, or parroting the "fear-mongering" mantra when you read something you don't have an answer for, or don't like, then perhaps you can reciprocate and come up with the main negative for remaining in the EU, or conversely what you think is the positive. In that way you won't be taken for a troll, or a person with nothing useful to contribute.

The main negative from my perspective is that the EU essentially undemocratic and unrepresentative.

originally posted by: 83Liberty
Any other takers who can give me YOUR single most STRONG and POSITIVE reason for Remaining in the EU?

You keep ignoring the multiple suggestions given to you by other members.

Agenda much?

originally posted by: mr-lizard

originally posted by: 83Liberty
Any other takers who can give me YOUR single most STRONG and POSITIVE reason for Remaining in the EU?

You keep ignoring the multiple suggestions given to you by other members.
Agenda much?

No I haven't. Which posts have I ignored that have been directed at me?
Yes I want us to Leave the EU, I think I have made myself clear in that regard.

a reply to: woodwardjnr

Gorgeous

:-)

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: 83Liberty
I don't think you need to be a member of the EU to have access to the science projects considering Israel, Norway and Switzerland all have access. To suggest that the remaining EU member states would purposely decline our science input because of a Brexit is speculation and not 'positive' which is what I have asked for.

It depends on the project. However, if it is a European mega-project then the authors of those projects dictate the terms of partnership of other nations. If you are not around the table from the beginning then you just pick up the pieces. There is a good chance that in time UK would derive less and less benefits, as core members would seek to monopolise key research and academic fields. I have seen no evidence to allay this concern.

Come on, be more specific. Considering you can't give me much detail about this great scientific benefit we receive from the EU, I say it is not a very STRONG reason.

However, as you seem to be dismissing everyone's particular views, or parroting the "fear-mongering" mantra when you read something you don't have an answer for, or don't like

I'm not dismissing everyone views, I'm proving them to be either inaccurate or not a strong reason.
I've used the phrase 'fear-mongering' once.
Why do you guys always over exaggerate or outright lie?

then perhaps you can reciprocate and come up with the main negative for remaining in the EU, or conversely what you think is the positive. In that way you won't be taken for a troll, or a person with nothing useful to contribute.

I've gave dozens and dozens of very strong, positive and valid reasons for Leaving the EU on this website. I will repeat some of them again, along with the evidence I always provide, to prove my point, AFTER someone has answered my question in a satisfactory way fulfilling the criteria.

You call me a potential troll yet again you don't know what you're talking about...

The definition of an internet troll is...

a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community.

I haven't offended anyone or resulted to name calling.
I'm trying to have a rational debate about anyone's single most important STRONG and POSITIVE reason for remaining in the EU. I ask for ONE reason so it doesn't go into an argument and we can discuss that one subject in detail, which you can't provide.

originally posted by: 83Liberty
Come on, be more specific. Considering you can't give me much detail about this great scientific benefit we receive from the EU, I say it is not a very STRONG reason.

Well, on science, the scientific community and academia would probably think it's a strong positive. I guess you don't because you are not in that field, which merely limits an appreciation of how "strong" a reason this is.

There is no guarantee that the UK politicians and leaders will fund research and science if we were outside Europe. In fact, the UK political establishment has oft demonstrated a lack of vision and brains when it comes to science. Therefore, I reiterate that access to science and research, often driven by these vast and highly complex mega-projects is a compelling reason to stay. Certainly true if you are a scientist, or one of the world class UK universities that benefit from funding from the EU.

According to the Times University Rankings 2016, looking down the top world universities, you have to count off seven UK universities before you come across the first university from another EU country. It is not just tradition that makes a university good, it is £ for research to attract the best talent. There is a clear correlation between research and excellence.

Times University rankings

European Research Council chucks tonnes of cash at UK universities. If they did not then where would the funding come from? Certainly not from our own government with its short-termism and pettiness.

ERC
Guardian

Perhaps you need to come up with a better reason to say why this is not a strong positive for the UKs membership of the EU, rather than dismissing it out of hand.

originally posted by: 83Liberty
a reply to: redshoes

Is there any data that even suggests the Scots will vote to Remain in the EU referendum?
Just that two weeks ago on Question Time in Aberdeen, the majority of the audience seemed to support Brexit.

Question time?...BBC Hand picked audience....Really?.

originally posted by: [post=20791505]83Liberty


I've gave dozens and dozens of very strong, positive and valid reasons for Leaving the EU on this website. I will repeat some of them again, along with the evidence I always provide,

Care to provide a link to those dozens of reasons or are we just supposed to guess the whereabouts of those dozens of reasons.?

You know what. With David Cameron, George Osbourne and Tony Blair in the stay Camp, and Nigel Farage, George Galloway and Boris Johnson in the Leave camp I'm seriously torn between which bunch of arseholes i should climb into bed with.
I might just draw a massive cock and balls on my ballot paper.

originally posted by: paraphi
Well, on science, the scientific community and academia would probably think it's a strong positive. I guess you don't because you are not in that field, which merely limits an appreciation of how "strong" a reason this is.

According to Scientists for Britain ...

There is no doubt that the UK Universities line is to support UK membership of the EU, but given that the vast majority of HE funding comes from a determinedly pro-EU government, it would take a brave vice-chancellor to go against the establishment view. You just need to look at what happened to ex-BCC chairman John Longworth to understand the implications of going against the government position in the current climate. In terms of the general view of scientists, however, we believe that the case is far from clear. Whilst we accept that a majority of scientists are indeed concerned about the impact that Brexit may have upon their existing research funding and collaboration arrangements, our own existence shows that support for EU membership is far from overwhelming, and it’s our belief that the two polls conducted so far are clearly not robust enough to support an accurate consensus amongst the UK scientific community.

There is no guarantee that the UK politicians and leaders will fund research and science if we were outside Europe. In fact, the UK political establishment has oft demonstrated a lack of vision and brains when it comes to science. Therefore, I reiterate that access to science and research, often driven by these vast and highly complex mega-projects is a compelling reason to stay. Certainly true if you are a scientist, or one of the world class UK universities that benefit from funding from the EU.

This is no guarantee that the UK politicians and leader won't fund research and science if we left the EU.
Your argument is now speculation and not positive.

According to the Times University Rankings 2016, looking down the top world universities, you have to count off seven UK universities before you come across the first university from another EU country. It is not just tradition that makes a university good, it is £ for research to attract the best talent. There is a clear correlation between research and excellence.

Firstly the number one university on that list is California, so your statement is incorrect. In fact, look at this list again, you're talking complete bull#.
There are many different university rankings anyway not just the Times.

European Research Council chucks tonnes of cash at UK universities. If they did not then where would the funding come from? Certainly not from our own government with its short-termism and pettiness.

This is our own money.
The later part is again speculation and not positive.
Repeating things don't make them correct!

Perhaps you need to come up with a better reason to say why this is not a strong positive for the UKs membership of the EU, rather than dismissing it out of hand.

I haven't dismissed it out of hand. Stop lying.
I said and quote...

Considering you can't give me much detail about this great scientific benefit we receive from the EU, I say it is not a very STRONG reason

a reply to: Soloprotocol

At last, some common ground.

To be honest I'm absolutely sick to the teeth of all the complete bollocks being spouted by both sides.
This 'campaign' has only re-iterated what we already knew; our politicians are nothing but self-serving, self-advancing, egotistical, arrogant, amoral scumbags who have zero credibility and integrity whatsoever.

The first point of order on removing ourselves from the EU should be the radical reformation of our electoral and parliamentary procedures.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: 83Liberty
a reply to: redshoes

Is there any data that even suggests the Scots will vote to Remain in the EU referendum?
Just that two weeks ago on Question Time in Aberdeen, the majority of the audience seemed to support Brexit.

Question time?...BBC Hand picked audience....Really?.

What has that got to with anything in our current debate?
I don't even understand what you are getting at with your reply.

Care to provide a link to those dozens of reasons or are we just supposed to guess the whereabouts of those dozens of reasons.?

Well you have just linked a past post I have made, so you know how to do it yourself. Why act the fool by saying "we just supposed to guess the whereabouts of those dozens of reasons"? when you know how to do it yourself. It doesn't make you big or sound cool you know. In sounds like you need to be spoon fed.

You know what. With David Cameron, George Osbourne and Tony Blair in the stay Camp, and Nigel Farage, George Galloway and Boris Johnson in the Leave camp I'm seriously torn between which bunch of arseholes i should climb into bed with.
I might just draw a massive cock and balls on my ballot paper.

Why vote on who is representing each side? Sounds childish thing to do. Research the facts and make your own conclusion.

a reply to: 83Liberty
Like I said, you need to be less dismissive, otherwise people won't bother responding to your questions.

However, I am not sure you have risen to the challenge to answer why you don't think science and research, and the impact on academia, is not a positive benefit if the UK's relationship with the EU. I your own words, or is it an area you are unfamiliar with?

a reply to: paraphi

The main negative from my perspective is that the EU essentially undemocratic and unrepresentative.

yeah, that's my take on it too more or less, not to mention the power the corporate lobbyist's hold...
1984 much?

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
You know what. With David Cameron, George Osbourne and Tony Blair in the stay Camp, and Nigel Farage, George Galloway and Boris Johnson in the Leave camp I'm seriously torn between which bunch of arseholes i should climb into bed with.
I might just draw a massive cock and balls on my ballot paper.

Haha.
I have to admit that was spot on. Almost as if there wasn't supposed to be an honest campaign and vote.

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: 83Liberty
Like I said, you need to be less dismissive, otherwise people won't bother responding to your questions.

I'm not being dismissive at all, I'm pointing out flaws in your reasonings. To be dismissive would be just to say blah blah blah or something as unproductive, but instead I researched some of the areas and gave you a link, quote and my own comments to counter your argument.

However, I am not sure you have risen to the challenge to answer why you don't think science and research, and the impact on academia, is not a positive benefit if the UK's relationship with the EU. I your own words, or is it an area you are unfamiliar with?

It's not a positive benefit because all the risks to 'science and research, and the impact on academia' if we did Leave, are speculation requiring the EU to either kick us out of the Erasmus programme etc, or that we stop scientist from crossing borders, or stopping student exchanges etc. All which I think would continue to happen.
Your speculation also relies on the government to not continue funding science.

originally posted by: 83Liberty
It's not a positive benefit because all the risks to 'science and research,

You seem to be deliberately reading my posts wrong, either that or English is not your first language.

To be absolutely clear.

A positive benefit of the UK's membership of the EU is access to science and research that stems from the European mega-projects and other initiatives. It is positive that the UK's universities also benefit from associated research, ensuring that many remain in the top 10, 25 or 50 internationally.

You have not given a compelling reason why this is not positive. Linking to a bunch of scientists who want to leave the EU is hardly balanced. Try your own words. Explain why this is not a positive. If the field of science, research and academia is outside of your area of knowledge, just say so. There's nothing wrong with that.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Soloprotocol

The first point of order on removing ourselves from the EU should be the radical reformation of our electoral and parliamentary procedures.

On a scale of one to unicorn farts likely hood of happening is........

While I am not a big fan of the EU a victory would leave would be seen as a victory for a certain brand of conservatism that opposes any change to our electoral system and wants us to revert back to some idealised 1950's (or possibly 1850's) way of life.

While I agree to some extent with 83Libertys point about not voting based on personalties it is also important to be realistic about what the political outcome of a leave vote would be. If you look at who the perceived victors would be do you really think that they would represent a positive force in British politics?