BREXIT: the full movie. Why England MUST vote to leave the EU.

Interesting thread, even if England in the title should be replaced with Britain.

Here in Scotland most of us feel we should remain in the E.U. for various reasons (a few of which are Scotland only issues) It's interesting to note a number of my fellow countrymen will strategically vote to leave in hopes we do and trigger a second Scottish referendum. Personally I haven't decided but am veering towards voting to remain as I feel that is best for Scotland.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: 83Liberty
It's not a positive benefit because all the risks to 'science and research,

You seem to be deliberately reading my posts wrong, either that or English is not your first language.
To be absolutely clear.

A positive benefit of the UK's membership of the EU is access to science and research that stems from the European mega-projects and other initiatives. It is positive that the UK's universities also benefit from associated research, ensuring that many remain in the top 10, 25 or 50 internationally.

You have not given a compelling reason why this is not positive. Linking to a bunch of scientists who want to leave the EU is hardly balanced. Try your own words. Explain why this is not a positive. If the field of science, research and academia is outside of your area of knowledge, just say so. There's nothing wrong with that.

I have already explained why it is not a strong positive argument....
We would still have access to and collaborate with the scientists and the research they conduct.
You seem to be linking that our Universities are only good because of the EU, which is a falsehood.

I linked to a bunch of scientists who want to Leave the EU to debunk the myth that scientists overwhelmingly support our membership of the EU.

This referendum is becoming notorious for the amount of obfuscation and misinformation labelled as 'facts', on both sides of the argument. There are economic arguments for both sides which may or may not be true.

What concerns me is the idea that the people will have more power if we leave the EU; I very much doubt that. Isn't it more likely that the government will have more power? Given this is a government which does not have the best reputation for looking after the interests of the people I am concerned at the potential impact this could have. A Tory version of human rights sounds pretty scary to me, and people saying that money saved from leaving the EU (if true) could be used on the NHS seem to be forgetting that this government appears to be trying to destroy it.

Even if leaving the EU saved the country money I have severe doubts that this government would put that money into the country's services. This isn't necessarily an argument to stay in the EU, just a question I have regarding why we should leave.

originally posted by: twfau
This referendum is becoming notorious for the amount of obfuscation and misinformation labelled as 'facts', on both sides of the argument. There are economic arguments for both sides which may or may not be true.

What concerns me is the idea that the people will have more power if we leave the EU; I very much doubt that. Isn't it more likely that the government will have more power? Given this is a government which does not have the best reputation for looking after the interests of the people I am concerned at the potential impact this could have. A Tory version of human rights sounds pretty scary to me, and people saying that money saved from leaving the EU (if true) could be used on the NHS seem to be forgetting that this government appears to be trying to destroy it.

Even if leaving the EU saved the country money I have severe doubts that this government would put that money into the country's services. This isn't necessarily an argument to stay in the EU, just a question I have regarding why we should leave.

Those are very honest concerns.

The thing with the first point though, is this. As a member of the EU we cannot vote for or against the people who draft the laws, the commission, so there is no democratic accountability at all in that regard.
As much as you or I may despise whatever the sitting UK government does, we can vote for someone else every 4 or 5 years, so they do have to check their wilder policies to a degree just incase they get on our nerves too much.

Point two, well, at least we would be able to vote for someone who would spend the saved money how we wanted...Whether enough of our compatriots do the same is something only time will tell.

At least we know that by staying in we won't have any say at all in that money, it will already be allocated, so what do we have to lose in regards to these two points by leaving?

I live in Scotland....

You're the only person I know voting to remain...


a reply to: djz3ro

a reply to: djz3ro

Seriously.... after watching that documentary and you still wanna vote to stay? This mentality must be the reason we r in this mess in the first place! Not seeing the bigger picture!

a reply to: gladtobehere

"The EU is heaven for a bureaucrat/politician, because its power without direct accountability".

Like ... being Tony Blair?

You'll always have the opportunity to be re-assimilated but you can never leave...

And who guarantees that the EU is still there some years after the Brits decided to take their leave? You?

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: djz3ro

Seriously.... after watching that documentary and you still wanna vote to stay? This mentality must be the reason we r in this mess in the first place! Not seeing the bigger picture!

What mess are you referring to.?

a reply to: twfau

I understand your valid concerns.

But the EU is aiming towards neutralising the powers of national elected assemblies and giving ultimate authority to Brussels.

That is the exact opposite of the increased support in the UK for more devolved power to ALL the regions of the UK.

Only then will we be able to free ourselves from Westminster and those that control the upper echelons of UK society.
We will never rid ourselves of them if we remain in the EU.

www.youtube.com...
21:30 onwards demands from the ERT

In those documents were letters from the ERT and demands to the European governments and to European Commision..".

Is this evidence that the EU is a fascist/oligarchy?

“The definition of fascism is The marriage of corporation and state ”
― Benito Mussolini

Limbo

N.B.
it would be great if someone could find a link that that document "Europe Inc."
which is later talked about in the documentary.
I've briskly looked but I can't seem to find an PDF of it.

en.wikipedia.org...

Why are Brexiters in a permanent state of anger.? Every time you hear a debate on TV or even talk to a Brexiter on the street they always have the big angry head on, Foreigners this, asylum seekers that, bloody immigrants coming over here stealing our jobs. bloody immigrants stealing our benefits.

Now it seems the Brexiter is trying hard to distance him/herself from their own xenophobia by claiming it's all about corruption in Europe and Money. They never seem to mention race any more.

New Word for there condition. Permarage!!!. It's a fascist trait.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Why are Brexiters in a permanent state of anger.? Every time you hear a debate on TV or even talk to a Brexiter on the street they always have the big angry head on, Foreigners this, asylum seekers that, bloody immigrants coming over here stealing our jobs. bloody immigrants stealing our benefits.

Now it seems the Brexiter is trying hard to distance him/herself from their own xenophobia by claiming it's all about corruption in Europe and Money. They never seem to mention race any more.

New Word for there condition. Permarage!!!. It's a fascist trait.

That's just the ignorant ones.
The whole idea behind the EU was to take power away from stupid nationalists.

Also notice that stereotypes are used to justify all kinds of icky controversial weirdness.
The only thing that matters is the truth.

Limbo

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Why are Brexiters in a permanent state of anger.? Every time you hear a debate on TV or even talk to a Brexiter on the street they always have the big angry head on, Foreigners this, asylum seekers that, bloody immigrants coming over here stealing our jobs. bloody immigrants stealing our benefits.

Now it seems the Brexiter is trying hard to distance him/herself from their own xenophobia by claiming it's all about corruption in Europe and Money. They never seem to mention race any more.

New Word for there condition. Permarage!!!. It's a fascist trait.

It wasn't brexit that used violent disorder to shut down the debate in Northamptonshire the other day.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Why are Brexiters in a permanent state of anger.?

How ironic is that coming from such an obsessed Scottish Nationalist who is consumed with bitterness and bigotry?

Every time you hear a debate on TV or even talk to a Brexiter on the street they always have the big angry head on,...

Err, see above.

Foreigners this, asylum seekers that, bloody immigrants coming over here stealing our jobs. bloody immigrants stealing our benefits.

Many British people have genuine concerns relating to immigration etc.
Some of those are planning on voting Remain.
Current policies simply are not working and are only serving to keep wages low and increase profit for the highest earners in our society - the very people you suppose to dislike so much.

Only a complete idiot would say what we have at present is working.

Now it seems the Brexiter is trying hard to distance him/herself from their own xenophobia by claiming it's all about corruption in Europe and Money. They never seem to mention race any more.

Like many immigration is a concern.
However, my primary concern has always been about the transfer of sovereignty from elected national assemblies to Brussels.
The UK seems to be moving towards increased devolved power to all the regions - something I passionately support.
That is the diametric opposite to the openly stated aim of the EU which seeks to govern and dictate to all constituent nations.

I can not, and will not, accept that.

For me it really is that simple.

New Word for there condition. Permarage!!!. It's a fascist trait.

A fascist trait?
No, more like the obsessed and the bigoted....now who would that describe?

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Why are Brexiters in a permanent state of anger.? Every time you hear a debate on TV or even talk to a Brexiter on the street they always have the big angry head on, Foreigners this, asylum seekers that, bloody immigrants coming over here stealing our jobs. bloody immigrants stealing our benefits.

Now it seems the Brexiter is trying hard to distance him/herself from their own xenophobia by claiming it's all about corruption in Europe and Money. They never seem to mention race any more.

New Word for there condition. Permarage!!!. It's a fascist trait.

But that's exactly how many Scots came across during the independence debate; BIG angry heads on.

It must be something to do with wanting to be free from the shackles of an ever evolving Federal Europe, just like many Scots wanted freedom from the shackles of Westminster.

We want our country back, plain and simple.

a reply to: Cobaltic1978
I think it's more complicated than that.

If you listen to the Scottish Nationalists, or rather Ms Sturgeon, the Scots want to be free of the English, but want to be shackled to Europe, and it's the English who want to be free from Europe but want the Scottish oil, or as is the reality Scottish no-oil.

Nothing's simple.

Who makes the laws that we have to live by and how accountable are they to us?
if you can't remove the people who govern you then you live in a dictatorship.

a reply to: Freeborn
Unbelievable.

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: Cobaltic1978
I think it's more complicated than that.

If you listen to the Scottish Nationalists, or rather Ms Sturgeon, the Scots want to be free of the English, but want to be shackled to Europe, and it's the English who want to be free from Europe but want the Scottish oil, or as is the reality Scottish no-oil.

Nothing's simple.

Plenty Oil mate. You've just not been paying attention.

Clair Ridge

A further development phase, called 'Clair Ridge', aims to develop other areas of the field with further fixed platforms. The field contains an estimated 8 billion barrels of oil, with an estimated 120,000 barrels per day production at peak levels.[3] The UK government approved the £4.5billion Clair Ridge development in October 2011[4] and production is scheduled to begin in 2016 and continue until 2050

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Straight talking and detail please.