Caitlyn Jenner considering ‘de-transitioning’ ‘in the next couple years,’ author claims

a reply to: Freija

With all due respect, failing to agree with you is not a personal attack or a sign of intellectual deficiency.

You're living your life the way you see fit. No one else on earth has to give approval nor do you have to care whether or not they do. The only person you have a shred of hope for controlling is you.

At the same time, no anecdote or emotional story will ever convince me that a biological male can become a biological female through some sort of surgical alchemy. And I stand by my conviction that doctors who facilitate these transformations are on shaky ethical ground. This is especially true for doctors and parents considering blocking puberty in a "trans" child or some other irreversible procedure on a child that does not have the full reasoning capacity of an adult.

You don't have to like my opinion, you don't have to agree and you don't have to listen. But I'm not going to forsake my own convictions just to placate others.

I wouldn't debate this topic unbidden and unasked--that would be rude. In daily life I'm happy to live and let live. However, given the forum and the topic it is not at all unreasonable to discuss the topic in an open, honest manner.

Frankly, I disagree with you. Other people disagree with you. And some others agree with you and disagree with me.

That doesn't make either of us stupid, bad or wrong. It makes us individuals with the ability to freely explore ideas and form conclusions.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop

You dont have to agree with me, but just because you think differently does not make my opinion wrong!

I believe you've known some quirky people.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Agit8dChop

You dont have to agree with me, but just because you think differently does not make my opinion wrong!

I believe you've known some quirky people.

Again with the great discussion, I applaud your ability to bring substance to this thread! keep it up!

- before you ask, I'm not religious, I am straight, I am white, I am western (just predicting you next one liners..)

originally posted by: Agit8dChop

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Agit8dChop

You dont have to agree with me, but just because you think differently does not make my opinion wrong!

I believe you've known some quirky people.

Again with the great discussion, I applaud your ability to bring substance to this thread! keep it up!

- before you ask, I'm not religious, I am straight, I am white, I am western (just predicting you next one liners..)

Succinct is often the best course of action.

I did not think you were religious. Nothing you said would indicate that to me. Nor, did I find any interest for what you're offering about yourself.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
a reply to: yuppa

and why is that? why can something not be considered a mental illness?

I think - its because we are so precious and emotionally unbalanced. people want everything, cannot handle criticism, if something can offend someone then it will.

People are too scared to call it what it is.. they'd rather come up excuses why a man born a man is not unstable when he wants to cut his bits off, recreate them surgically, take buckets of hormones and chemicals to be something he is not, was not and never was going to be.

instead we call it nature, instead of illness!

They used to consider communist mentally ill too. Im Gender dysphoric and mentally im fine except for my hatred of crowds. So do not go there about me or people like me being ill.

A mental illness is dibilitating and i get around just fine mentally. I despise this meatsack i cannot change but also realize i do not have the means to change it. but i will defend anyone who wants to do so from people who just do not understand or even really want to because they think they are better than anyone else.
Man id hate to live in a world where everyone is plain.

To those who think God does not make mistakes.. True he does not.BUT what you are failing to see is Trans genders are given a challenge to overcome.God would not have allowwed man to come up with Surgery If he wanted us to just accept our bodies as they are when we can change our lives for th e better when needed.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
a reply to: yuppa

did i say that? women who want children but cannot has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion - but i like your attempt at a smear!

women who cannot have children are women.. maybe its something with their body, their partners sperm, luck.. who knows!

Well if a woman cannot fill her role as a baby machine apparently she has no purpose right?

Do these people get checked for dismorphia???

a reply to: Annee

And you are rabidly in favor of sex reassignment, obviously. Apparently, I've tweaked your nose and caused a nasty case of righteous indignation that I simply will not give way to your clearly more reasonable argument.

From here, I'm guessing some gripe about backwards religious people oppressing others, etc. To which I say: I'm all for freedom. Make mistakes, fall down, skin your knees, and experience life. You can't find any truth if it's force fed to you.

Yes, I am religious. I don't think that's the smear you think it is.

I'll agree that rigid gender roles are limiting, as well. And that gender is, to some extent, down to the fashion and customs of the age one lives in. I've always thought it stupid to push girls to dress/act in one strict, prescribed manner and boys another. And it's especially harmful to make boys feel wrong for being nurturing or girls wrong for being adventurous.

But it's a big jump from there to agreeing with surgical efforts to alter one's anatomy.

Sorry I can't give you the agreement you desire, but there's no need to jab at each other over it.

originally posted by: SisterDelirium
a reply to: Annee

And you are rabidly in favor of sex reassignment, obviously. Apparently, I've tweaked your nose and caused a nasty case of righteous indignation that I simply will not give way to your clearly more reasonable argument.

From here, I'm guessing some gripe about backwards religious people oppressing others, etc. To which I say: I'm all for freedom. Make mistakes, fall down, skin your knees, and experience life. You can't find any truth if it's force fed to you.

Yes, I am religious. I don't think that's the smear you think it is.

I'll agree that rigid gender roles are limiting, as well. And that gender is, to some extent, down to the fashion and customs of the age one lives in. I've always thought it stupid to push girls to dress/act in one strict, prescribed manner and boys another. And it's especially harmful to make boys feel wrong for being nurturing or girls wrong for being adventurous.

But it's a big jump from there to agreeing with surgical efforts to alter one's anatomy.

Sorry I can't give you the agreement you desire, but there's no need to jab at each other over it.

Question. Are you God? Ill answer that for you No you arent. Also How do you know that it isnt a challenge God has set for these people to overcome? not every Woman can have children naturally Either. Remember God dont make mistakes right? SO he dictated that be a challenge for them to overcome. So why cant you see Transgenderism the same way?

WHat you see as illness i see as a challenge.SO do alot of others.

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
a reply to: yuppa

did i say that? women who want children but cannot has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion - but i like your attempt at a smear!

women who cannot have children are women.. maybe its something with their body, their partners sperm, luck.. who knows!

Well if a woman cannot fill her role as a baby machine apparently she has no purpose right?

your words, not mine!

a reply to: yuppa

My main concern is, again, what if the person gets their new genitalia and wants to go back? What if the pursuit causes health issues or shortens their life? Is the risk worth the cost?

Wearing women's clothes and living a feminine existence is one thing. You can change your mind without injury. Once you add hormones and scalpels there's serious risk involved. Hormones can injure or kill. Estrogen, in particular, can be a beast on the body.

originally posted by: SisterDelirium
With all due respect, failing to agree with you is not a personal attack or a sign of intellectual deficiency.

I didn't say anyone was intellectually deficient. I said they are ignorant of the facts of accepted and proven scientific and medical research and therapeutic protocols.

At the same time, no anecdote or emotional story will ever convince me that a biological male can become a biological female through some sort of surgical alchemy. And I stand by my conviction that doctors who facilitate these transformations are on shaky ethical ground. This is especially true for doctors and parents considering blocking puberty in a "trans" child or some other irreversible procedure on a child that does not have the full reasoning capacity of an adult.

What is this "biology" you speak of? Chromosomes? Yeah, I have an XY combination or at least I think, it has never been tested but what the hell does something completely invisible in day-to-day life have to do with jack? Your inaccuracy claiming blocking puberty is irreversible clearly demonstrates you do not actually know what you're talking about so it is my right to consider your conclusions invalid.

You don't have to like my opinion, you don't have to agree and you don't have to listen. But I'm not going to forsake my own convictions just to placate others.

I don't need to be placated but I do try to help people understand and when your own convictions are not factually based and you choose to remain willfully ignorant and closed-minded, as Annee suggested based of religious beliefs, then have a nice day and go on about your merry way with your "opinions" because I'm not the only one here that thinks you are mistaken. I find myself less than tolerant toward those that that spread misinformation and your posts stand out in that respect.

Frankly, I disagree with you. Other people disagree with you. And some others agree with you and disagree with me.

What is it you disagree with? That I exist? Here, lemme pinch myself. Yup! I'm as real as the chair I'm sitting in and you can hardly disagree with my experience because well, my experience, my 61 years on this planet and my entire life seems to disagree with your opinion of what it is.

That doesn't make either of us stupid, bad or wrong. It makes us individuals with the ability to freely explore ideas and form conclusions.

And if you wish to base those opinions on something less than fact, that's perfectly your right to do so but don't expect me or anyone that knows what science and medicine has to say about this to do anything but criticize your conclusions.

originally posted by: SisterDelirium

My main concern is, again, what if the person gets their new genitalia and wants to go back? What if the pursuit causes health issues or shortens their life?

Are we supposed to believe your "concern" is altruism? That you are so worried that 2 out of 100 may have some regret that you wish to deny treatments to the 98 others that will benefit? That sounds more like meddling than concern?

Is the risk worth the cost?

Is that up to you decide? Some people have two clear options. One of them is suicide. Would you prefer that over risk of having a normal life? Hardly seems like a decision to me. (and it wasn't)

Wearing women's clothes and living a feminine existence is one thing. You can change your mind without injury. Once you add hormones and scalpels there's serious risk involved. Hormones can injure or kill. Estrogen, in particular, can be a beast on the body.

More concern trolling without question. You say you have a live and let live attitude but it certainly isn't coming across.

a reply to: yuppa

OK...well, I never claimed to be God, but thanks for keeping me humble? I guess?

Theologically speaking, I doubt either view is correct from an orthodox standpoint. It would be difficult to delve into the specifics of "God don't make mistakes" and people being faced with challenges. There are significant barriers, theologically, to using IVF...depending on your tradition, as well. This crosses the questions of "why do people suffer" and "why does a loving God allow for illness".... I couldn't hope to do either question any justice here. The short answer, for me, is that ...you've essentially done the equivalent of attempting to theologically divide by zero...my only answer, therefore, is to say "does not compute, syntax error"

I'd also say everyone is suffering from some illness or defect. Just because one has cancer and another violent thoughts and the other drug addiction and still another sexual troubles doesn't make much difference in the end. Like the Cheshire Cat said, we're all mad here.

originally posted by: SisterDelirium
a reply to: yuppa

My main concern is, again, what if the person gets their new genitalia and wants to go back? What if the pursuit causes health issues or shortens their life? Is the risk worth the cost?

Wearing women's clothes and living a feminine existence is one thing. You can change your mind without injury. Once you add hormones and scalpels there's serious risk involved. Hormones can injure or kill. Estrogen, in particular, can be a beast on the body.

COulda shoulda woulda. Also God allowed such methods to be developed so how can you absolutly say they are in th e wrong to do what makes them happy? you live your own truth you dont let others do it for you.

Nothing will happen unless it is going to happen. We cannot know when our deaths will happen. we cannot know th e future. Its why You remember the log in your own eye before the mote in mine.

ALso.. Life IS risk. If you dont risk things your life will be very boring. As to being worth th e cost? thats something only YOU can say for yourself. Not dictate unto others.

a reply to: Freija

I didn't say anyone was intellectually deficient. I said they are ignorant

People on ATS think ignorant is a nice way of saying stupid. Because they're ignorant of the word (and probably stupid).

-----

I'm completely over this issue. You stubborn pains in my ass convinced me. Creepy bastards flashing kids will be dealt with. Rape is still rape. Assault is still assault.

It's a non issue.

What country are we in? Just do you, and protect others that aren't hurting anyone (even if you think they're weird).

Most of us got over the gay thing. We're going to get over the transgender thing too.

-----

This article seems like BS. I also don't really give a f if Caitlyn switches back. I don't know why she's the face of transgender issues. Seems like the Al Sharpton of transgender people. Not the best spokesperson.

Really, who cares? This is one of those things where it's been difficult for me to come around, especially since I don't know any transgender people. It's like back in the day how there were good n*ggers and now not many people think that way anymore. It reminds me of people saying well at least he's not a mincing fairy, he's a good gay. You meet a black person or a mincing fairy, realize they're a person and don't want to do you wrong, and then it's easier to accept other mincing fairies and black people. Problem is there aren't enough transgender people out there for all of us to meet and change our minds.

I don't get it either. At all. That doesn't mean it's not a valid thing. I doubt there are many people so obsessed with attention they go full on transgender (I'm highly skeptical of some of the other gender/species identifiers). Can you imagine how terrible it would be to come out as transgender? If you're willing to put yourself through that I doubt you're faking it (except for a few times when I've seen it done for attention on the internet).

Leave people alone if they aren't hurting you. You like your guns? I love mine. Some people go on shooting sprees. Should we ban all guns? There's a lot more solid evidence for gun owners being murderers than transgender people being bathroom rapists. Maybe we should abandon the broad brush.

ETA: I'm sorry I went to the bathroom. It always goes to the bathroom. Point is leave people alone unless they're hurting you.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
a reply to: yuppa

did i say that? women who want children but cannot has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion - but i like your attempt at a smear!

women who cannot have children are women.. maybe its something with their body, their partners sperm, luck.. who knows!

Well if a woman cannot fill her role as a baby machine apparently she has no purpose right?

your words, not mine!

derived from your previous post so youre not copping out on responsibility here.

You originally said to Annee

Agit8dChop:"But the human body is made a very specific way for the concept of creation. There are a few very very very rare and unique cases where nature probably got it wrong ( and im talking extremely rare )

But when people like Bruce Jenner decide on a whim they want to be the opposite sex than go through with all kinds of chemical transitions and operations.. its a mental illness plain and simple."

SO IF a woman cannot have babies for the concept of creation according to your own words shes specifically useless to the human race right? So barren women and transgenders fall into this category of useless breathers creationally speaking right?

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
a reply to: yuppa

and why is that? why can something not be considered a mental illness?

I think - its because we are so precious and emotionally unbalanced. people want everything, cannot handle criticism, if something can offend someone then it will.

People are too scared to call it what it is.. they'd rather come up excuses why a man born a man is not unstable when he wants to cut his bits off, recreate them surgically, take buckets of hormones and chemicals to be something he is not, was not and never was going to be.

instead we call it nature, instead of illness!

To those who think God does not make mistakes.. True he does not.BUT what you are failing to see is Trans genders are given a challenge to overcome.God would not have allowwed man to come up with Surgery If he wanted us to just accept our bodies as they are when we can change our lives for th e better when needed.

Yes, I'm sure "God", whatever that is, gave mankind the intellectual ability to come up with surgery so people can go through cosmetic surgery, as that's what a sex change is, cosmetic surgery. Some women apparently "identify" as having bigger hooters, but "God" gave them a hurdle to overcome with their A cups. Solution; implants or for the less committed, padded bras.

I however don't mind if a grown adult wants to splash thousands down on having a sex change. Their choice. Some of the more loony folks in here though want to hand that choice and decision over to five year old children which is asinine at all levels and from all angles.

BTW, are you suggesting transgendered people weren't around for thousands of years before the medical ability to replace a penis? I mean, if your "God" wanted people to handle obstacles in life by simply paying a visit to the hospital, then wouldn't he have done so for all those transgendered roaming the plains in 3000 BC?

a reply to: yuppa

I missed that "Bruce Jenner decide on a whim" part.

Doesn't seem to be the case.

originally posted by: MysticPearl

Some of the more loony folks in here though want to hand that choice and decision over to five year old children which is asinine at all levels and from all angles.

Here we go again. Don't these people read the "millions" of other transgender threads?

The only thing a 5 year old transgender child needs is loving, supportive, understanding parents.