Caitlyn Jenner considering ‘de-transitioning’ ‘in the next couple years,’ author claims

I was watching about that girl that dresses up like a baby for 12 hrs a day and she is like in her twenties, and the video also adds with almost an asterisk, oh yeah she is also trans-gender.
And people say for me to call it as it really is, would be something_phobic, but it really isn't.
If I am a 25 year old guy and I think I am a horse, that is what it is...mental illness, society by by enabling all this isn't helping those that are mentally ill.
Encouraging it and promoting it might make us feel better, but it sure isn't helping that person long term, even if they feel better in the moment because they get to feel supported.

originally posted by: SisterDelirium
a reply to: redshoes

It may very well be a condition, but it's far from settled "science" in terms of what can or should be done about it. Beyond that, as this deals with minds and wills, the whole question rests at the outer limits of what science can accurately answer

I think maybe you are looking for a simple answer where there isn't one. Treatment for any psychological condition is based on the needs of the individual patient and patients tend to vary from one to another. The medical practices that are 'recommended' are always supposed to followed in the context of the case in question. That's how medicine works. That's also why the DSVM is edited and renewed on a continual basis.

Where the grey lines occur tend to be in the areas of social policy which seek to establish a norm for a given society.

An anatomical male will never be an anatomical female. Ever. When they die and their bones are dug out of the earth hundreds of years later, their bones will identify them as physically male, whatever their soft parts were altered to be or social experience was.

And one woman's experience of what it means to be a woman will vary from person to person based on their experience. There are also many cases of intersex individuals and chromosome mis matched individuals. There are cases of boys and girls who are born with phsyical abnormalities and genetics that don't gain expression until puberty.

I'm not saying this experience isn't distressing or that it is impossible to LIVE ( socially ) as a female. It's just not possible to fully become a true, physical female when one has been born male. A trans woman will never know the full extent of what it means to be born a "cis" woman. I'm sure that's frustrating for someone who truly believes they are female, but that doesn't make it any less true.

I'm inclined to agree with you. The social construct of a binary sense of gender doesn't always match individual cases. There is an obvious complication when a person is required to identify as either male or female without any other option. Also I wonder would you agree that the life experience of a biological female who is born and raised in the USA differs greatly from the life experience of a female born in Saudi Arabia or Somalia.

There are countries where a third gender is given legal recognition (Malta & Argentina for example) and to me that seems like the simplest way for a society to deal with these exceptions to the norm. However in most countries the legal system that defines rights is based on a purely binary basis and introducing a new legal definition of 'trans-gendered' or 'other' would require laws to be changed such a labour rights laws and equality legislation which brings with it a whole truck load of complications.

However just because I can see the logic myself, I don't have any expectation that others would agree, or indeed if that would be the 'right' thing to do.

Let me go out on a limb here and let you know that I identify as transgender. I have no intention at present of transitioning to a physical representation opposite to my birth gender as I don't think that would be the right option for me. However if do at some point in the future decide to undergo medical transition, I don't think that I would see myself as a female. In the same sense, I don't at the moment, not have I ever truly felt like a male.

Its easy to simplify these experiences down to what a person feels like or how they choose to dress. Its not so easy to fully understand what its like to live your entire life when you look in the mirror and don't recognize the person that's looking back at you. And it's harder when i'm faced with people who have no knowledge or appreciation of my own circumstances tell me how I should behave. It would be easier if I felt that there were more people who at least had the capacity to understand and show some degree of compassion.

a reply to: kaylaluv

So what? Why is it so important that a transgender female has male chromosomes? So what if their bones say they are a certain biological sex? Why is it so important if a trans woman won't ever know the full extent of what it means to be born a cis-gender female (whatever that even means). So what is your point? That because they will still have male chromosomes, they shouldn't bother living the life as the gender they identify with? What good will it do them to live a life that is not true to their identity? What good will it do them to be miserable in the bodies they feel have betrayed them? That might make you feel better, but it won't make them feel better. Why do you want them to be miserable their whole lives in bodies that don't match at all with their identities. At least with sexual reassignment surgery, they can look down and not see the penis that feels so foreign to them. If that makes them a happier person, what difference does it make that they still have male chromosomes?

I've already said that SOCIALLY it's possible to be whatever you like. It's just not PHYSICALLY possible to be whatever you like.

And yes, it does matter that someone has male chromosomes, at some point the social, lived experience runs up against the wall of physical reality. It would, I'd imagine, be somewhat ill-advised for a trans woman to tell their doctor that they're a cis woman, because there's more to being female (or male) than just appearances.

With that in mind, it just doesn't strike me as inherently good to cut and paste healthy body parts. If it helps to illuminate where I'm coming from, I tend to disagree with plastic surgery and/or circumcision for much the same reason--excluding reconstructive purposes or surgery necessary for the physical health of the person.

This is, again, personal opinion, in a thread talking about the hypothetical re-transitioning of a transwoman in the news. If it's possible, at all, for regret, it just seems like SRS is risky to the point of being potentially unethical on the part of doctors who perform the surgery. Ultimately, it's not my call and I'm not about to run out to do some massive campaign against allow men to chop off their members if they see fit. I just can't imagine a world in which I would truly believe it to be an intrinsically good thing.

And by the way, if you saw a naked transgender female whose transition was complete and very successful, you would never, ever, ever know that she was born a male without making her submit a chromosome test. And that transgender female would say she was close enough to being a real female to have made it worth the surgeries, hormones etc. And that's all that really matters here.

I'm not about to go around doing a check for accuracy. But, again, this DOES raise some interesting questions. If it's so impossible to tell the birth-gender of the person after the work of a competent surgeon...at what point would the trans person need to disclose their birth-gender to a potential mate? Ethically, morally, they'd have to sooner or later. At some point, where the rubber meets the road, physical reality has to be acknowledged...whether it's in working with a medical professional in charge of managing one's healthcare or with a potential spouse. At some point there's no escaping the biological fact of having been born with a specific, "binary", set of reproductive organs.

It doesn't "matter" in the sense of workaday life. It shouldn't matter in how we treat people (hopefully with as much respect and courtesy as possible). But I know I'm not alone in the conviction that someone physically born male will never be truly/completely/totally female.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33

If I am a 25 year old guy and I think I am a horse, that is what it is...mental illness, society by by enabling all this isn't helping those that are mentally ill.
Encouraging it and promoting it might make us feel better, but it sure isn't helping that person long term, even if they feel better in the moment because they get to feel supported.

Bogus argument. If you really think you are a horse and you live your life as a horse, then you don't speak (horses can't talk, unless you are Mr. Ed) and you can't work at a job (unless someone can ride you, which they can't), and you are going to get arrested if you poop where you stand. That makes you non-functional in society, which makes it a mental illness.

Transgender people are fully functioning people. They go to school, they work jobs, they drive cars - they are teachers, managers, soldiers, etc. They are just living a normal human life as the gender they identify with. And there are transgenders who have lived long lives, so, yeah - long term success.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
I was watching about that girl that dresses up like a baby for 12 hrs a day and she is like in her twenties, and the video also adds with almost an asterisk, oh yeah she is also trans-gender.

Hey! Have you seen that Naked Cowboy in New York? He represents all heterosexual males.

Love when someone takes an extreme case as their blanket representative argument of transgenders.

Yeah, whatever. Sell your story Bruce, the tabloids are waiting.

The 10 million dollar question is.... Which bathroom?

originally posted by: SisterDelirium
a reply to: kaylaluv


And yes, it does matter that someone has male chromosomes, at some point the social, lived experience runs up against the wall of physical reality. It would, I'd imagine, be somewhat ill-advised for a trans woman to tell their doctor that they're a cis woman, because there's more to being female (or male) than just appearances.

Transgender people going through transition deal with LOTS of doctors who know full well their patient's history. They know they are not a cis-gender woman. What makes you think they will try to lie to their doctor? Have you heard of this happening? I think you are making up issues where there are none.

With that in mind, it just doesn't strike me as inherently good to cut and paste healthy body parts. If it helps to illuminate where I'm coming from, I tend to disagree with plastic surgery and/or circumcision for much the same reason--excluding reconstructive purposes or surgery necessary for the physical health of the person.

This is, again, personal opinion, in a thread talking about the hypothetical re-transitioning of a transwoman in the news. If it's possible, at all, for regret, it just seems like SRS is risky to the point of being potentially unethical on the part of doctors who perform the surgery. Ultimately, it's not my call and I'm not about to run out to do some massive campaign against allow men to chop off their members if they see fit. I just can't imagine a world in which I would truly believe it to be an intrinsically good thing.

You can have whatever opinion you want, of course, but understand that for some people with gender dysphoria, surgery IS intrinsically a good thing.

I'm not about to go around doing a check for accuracy. But, again, this DOES raise some interesting questions. If it's so impossible to tell the birth-gender of the person after the work of a competent surgeon...at what point would the trans person need to disclose their birth-gender to a potential mate? Ethically, morally, they'd have to sooner or later. At some point, where the rubber meets the road, physical reality has to be acknowledged...whether it's in working with a medical professional in charge of managing one's healthcare or with a potential spouse. At some point there's no escaping the biological fact of having been born with a specific, "binary", set of reproductive organs.

Agreed, people should be honest with their lifetime mate, no matter what their situation is. This doesn't mean that sexual reassignment surgery isn't intrinsically a good thing for many transgender people.

But I know I'm not alone in the conviction that someone physically born male will never be truly/completely/totally female.

Again, that's not a good argument against sexual reassignment surgery for transgender people who want it.

a reply to: redshoes

I think maybe you are looking for a simple answer where there isn't one. Treatment for any psychological condition is based on the needs of the individual patient and patients tend to vary from one to another. The medical practices that are 'recommended' are always supposed to followed in the context of the case in question. That's how medicine works. That's also why the DSVM is edited and renewed on a continual basis. Where the grey lines occur tend to be in the areas of social policy which seek to establish a norm for a given society.

I'm not looking for a simple answer. I am questioning the "correctness", if you will, of altering sensitive, healthy body parts. Certainly, forcing people to live contrary to some deeply held, core sense of "self" is not kind or helpful. Conformity for conformity's sake isn't right or true. If someone is threatened with death, ostracism or some other cruelty if they won't "play along" then that person isn't able to freely explore the truth. Without freedom, truth becomes a pantomime or a collection of empty gestures. Definitely "be straight or we'll kill you or withhold love/affection from you" is a load of bunk. At the same time, caring about others and disagreeing aren't the same thing. It's completely possible to love people you disagree with totally and completely.

And one woman's experience of what it means to be a woman will vary from person to person based on their experience. There are also many cases of intersex individuals and chromosome mis matched individuals. There are cases of boys and girls who are born with phsyical abnormalities and genetics that don't gain expression until puberty.

True. One of the worst things on earth as a cis-female is to visit a female OBGYN who believes their experience of being female is the be-all-end-all. I'm pretty sure every woman with PMDD eventually runs into at least one OBGYN who genuinely believes PMDD isn't real or serious because they've never experienced it personally. Another example: I was actually told that "all labor is bad" and therefore to "pick my drugs" and not be "foolish"...in response to preferring natural childbirth. And had a female doctor argue that my second pregnancy couldn't possibly be to the same father because I had preeclampsia again, which "everyone knows" can only happen if you've got a different father in the mix. Literally arguing that somehow I had no idea how or with whom I became pregnant. Point being, individuals are individuals. It's really important to respect that. Still, there are some physical aspects that generally go along with having one physiological sex or another--generally--that won't be experienced by the opposite sex. Mercifully, PMDD, PCOS, menstruation, etc. are not experienced by males, for example. That's kind of a lucky break, really.

I'm inclined to agree with you. The social construct of a binary sense of gender doesn't always match individual cases. There is an obvious complication when a person is required to identify as either male or female without any other option. Also I wonder would you agree that the life experience of a biological female who is born and raised in the USA differs greatly from the life experience of a female born in Saudi Arabia or Somalia. There are countries where a third gender is given legal recognition (Malta & Argentina for example) and to me that seems like the simplest way for a society to deal with these exceptions to the norm. However in most countries the legal system that defines rights is based on a purely binary basis and introducing a new legal definition of 'trans-gendered' or 'other' would require laws to be changed such a labour rights laws and equality legislation which brings with it a whole truck load of complications. However just because I can see the logic myself, I don't have any expectation that others would agree, or indeed if that would be the 'right' thing to do.

Frankly, if I had to live the "gender role" demanded by Saudi Arabia or Somalia, I'd probably to my damnedest to run for the hills, live in a cave, and survive on a diet of locusts. Or maybe I'd just jump in the Atlantic and start swimming for the US.

I remember reading about a woman physician in the 1800's who dressed as a male and caught all kinds of flak for being both non-conformist and having the nerve to think she could practice medicine as well as a male could. That's simply awful. Wearing pants and caring for the sick was considered somehow "evil" at the time. I've also read that, during a similar time frame, educated women were considered "useless hybrids" or that reading would shrink reproductive organs.

Growing up, I used to be very angry that women never got to be strong or adventurous in movies or books. The hero's journey always belonged to the boys. Boys got the Fellowship of the Ring, the Jungle Book, and Star Wars. Girls, here's a copy of Little House on the Prairie, Anne of Green Gables or Little Women. I heard a lot of "you can't do that because you're a girl"....especially when I wanted to play hockey. I got handed a spandex tutu and tights instead.

Again, I can't help thinking that some of the trans situation is a result of our silly, rigid concept of gender roles. Hearth angels and stoic manly men are all, to an extent, make believe. And holding to the make-believe seems to be the thing that causes harm...not the genitals a person is born with or their reproductive role. It's the crazy idea that a piece of cloth, a personality trait, a book, sport or a hobby has a "sex" that appears make people feel uncomfortable in their own skin.

Having a third designation does seem to make sense. I've read about indigenous groups who handle things that way, as well. If we're going to live in a pluralistic society, these kinds of accommodations are reasonable, even in light of differing philosophies and religious convictions. There's nothing wrong with giving people space to figure themselves out and breathe.

Its not so easy to fully understand what its like to live your entire life when you look in the mirror and don't recognize the person that's looking back at you. And it's harder when i'm faced with people who have no knowledge or appreciation of my own circumstances tell me how I should behave. It would be easier if I felt that there were more people who at least had the capacity to understand and show some degree of compassion.

Getting to know and accept the person in the mirror is a hard thing to do all around. No doubt feeling like a girl and seeing a boy is unpleasant. I'm all for allowing the freedom to make peace with the person in the mirror and seek the truth. Again, if we're not free to figure it out, we never will. It's a lifelong process. As for transitioning, I'd just personally hope that any doctor assisting with a transition (surgical/medical) would very clearly outline the risk/benefits for informed consent and place ethics ahead of profit. As with sterilization, there's a real potential for heartache or regret as a result.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Transgender people going through transition deal with LOTS of doctors who know full well their patient's history. They know they are not a cis-gender woman. What makes you think they will try to lie to their doctor? Have you heard of this happening? I think you are making up issues where there are none.

I'm just pointing out that there are some physical aspects that will never disappear. If there are aspects that will never disappear, why not accept the body as-is and simply live socially as a woman rather than undergo risky surgery? I'm just not seeing where it's a huge benefit to surgically alter ones genitals in the face of potential risks.

You can have whatever opinion you want, of course, but understand that for some people with gender dysphoria, surgery IS intrinsically a good thing.

I think reaching a point of acceptance is probably healthier than the risk posed by hormones and scar tissue. If it were my son or daughter, I'd be afraid for their long-term health. I'd also advise them against any surgery that was not medically necessary for life (plastic surgery, etc). I'd never advocate for elective surgery conducted on healthy tissue for no other reason than psychological satisfaction.

Agreed, people should be honest with their lifetime mate, no matter what their situation is. This doesn't mean that sexual reassignment surgery isn't intrinsically a good thing for many transgender people.

From my vantage point, it SRS just seems like an unnecessary risk with limited benefits and something which has the potential to make surgeons rich rather than people physically healthier.

Again, that's not a good argument against sexual reassignment surgery for transgender people who want it.

I just don't see how someone can become "more authentic" by altering their body to be something "inauthentic". It still seems healthier, in the long run, in a physical sense, to accept being a physical male that lives socially as a female than to have potentially damaging surgery to "look the part".

a reply to: SisterDelirium

I'm just pointing out that some transgender people feel that there is an enormous benefit to surgically changing their bodies to match their identity. Other transgender people don't feel the need to undergo surgery. The important thing is to have the choice.

If you were a transgender person and you opted not to have the surgery, I would support your decision. Just as I support a transgender person who opts for the surgery. I know a few transgender people who opted for the surgery and have lived happy lives with no regrets for many years. Just because it's not right for you doesn't mean it's not right for someone else. Could we at least agree on that?

Ha ha ha ha... lets have another look at the title ....shall we..

Caitlyn Jenner considering ‘de-transitioning in the next couple years' hmmm..... Can't decide if he likes his role in his little sexcapades ?

Or stalling for time, book deals, or what little publicity he might secure ? If he can stretch out the whole fiasco to milk what ever $ he can out of this debauchery. The whole family are media whores, that's how they make their money primarily.
Frankly Bruce, no one cares about you or your clan....

a reply to: kaylaluv

Transgender is a personality disorder. There could be many causes, such as abuse at a young age (the most common source) , chemical imbalances in the brain, social conditioning that teaches an attention starved child that such behavior is an easy way to get attention. Other than when nature actually screws up with hermaphrodites, these are all mental disorders and were treated as such until Democrats found it an easy way to divide the population and score new voters.

The reclaimed Q in LGBTQ+ has always been against the politicizing and legislating of these issues, and still is. But they do not fit the typical LGBT agenda narrative, and so they even ostracize those within who are against these media circuses and political showboating.

Bruce Jenner needs to recant his entire circus and just admit he was financially compensated by powerful rich anti-humans to polarize the population for Democratic votes.

a reply to: kaylaluv

I'm just pointing out that some transgender people feel that there is an enormous benefit to surgically changing their bodies to match their identity. Other transgender people don't feel the need to undergo surgery. The important thing is to have the choice. If you were a transgender person and you opted not to have the surgery, I would support your decision. Just as I support a transgender person who opts for the surgery. I know a few transgender people who opted for the surgery and have lived happy lives with no regrets for many years. Just because it's not right for you doesn't mean it's not right for someone else. Could we at least agree on that?

I'll agree there are people who truly believe that surgery is the answer to their problem. I'll also agree that being cruel to anyone is not OK. Beating up or harassing anyone because of their way of being is simply not OK--not ever.

I will not agree that SRS seems in any way healthy. I will not endorse it as intrinsically good. I would not want it done to my son or daughter or loved one. And beyond that, I'd encourage people to accept themselves as they physically are and do they best they can with what they've got.

a reply to: AmericanRealist

Bruce Jenner needs to recant his entire circus and just admit he was financially compensated by powerful rich anti-humans to polarize the population for Democratic votes.

How most sane people feel about the Kardashians:

s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...

Lmao! So Bruce is considering switching back now eh? Lmao! Yeah once he bleeds this hoax dry for every cent.

I feel really sorry for the dummies who fell for this scam, that the Kardashians are in on by the way. ~$heopleNation

originally posted by: SheopleNation
Lmao! So Bruce is considering switching back now eh? Lmao! Yeah once he bleeds this hoax dry for every cent.

Snopes: FALSE

There is no truth to the article. Huzlers is one of many fake news sites that aims to drive traffic by penning fictitious articles about trending issues:

www.snopes.com...

a reply to: Annee

That certainly may be the case Annee, but that does not change the truth of the matter, which is that this is a hoax that was orchestrated by Bruce & the Kardashians.

I seen Bruce speak up in Seattle back in 2003, and believe me this a very intelligent man we are dealing with here. ~$heopleNation

It's really quite fantastical.

How non-transgenders, non-gender dysphoria individuals, that are not even involved with a child/close friend/relative have become such experts - - that they blatantly argue with and dismiss actual transgender poster's viewpoints.

Kind of reminds me of those years I was Mormon. I had people ask me questions straight to my face, which I would directly answer. They would then proceed to tell me I was wrong, and correct me by telling me the "truth".

That left me shaking my head too.

originally posted by: SheopleNation
a reply to: Annee

That certainly may be the case Annee, but that does not change the truth of the matter, which is that this is a hoax that was orchestrated by Bruce & the Kardashians.

I seen Bruce speak up in Seattle back in 2003, and believe me this a very intelligent man we are dealing with here. ~$heopleNation

You do know she talked about her Gender Dysphoria long before she knew the Kardashians. right?

Her first effort to transition was before she was involved with the Kardashians.

Kris Kardashian is the real shark.