Transgendered children: should a parent be able to chemically alter a child's sex?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
A Trans boy does not become a girl after hormone blockers or even a surgery. They are just the best facsimile of a girl that we can turn a boy into.

Maybe so, but he or she can certainly pass for the other gender. Moreso when the reassignment operation is done during childhood.

So I think the first point about some one wanting to be an animal is fair. Because, no we couldn't make them an animal, but we could make them the closest facsimile of an animal a human can get. Exactly the same as making a boy the closest facsimile of a girl we can.

Not even on the same level. Attempting to make a human into an animal will just result in them looking like a human with animal features. They wouldn't be able to pass for that animal. EVER. Again. A transperson can still pass for the opposite gender since they are still human.

But I'm not agreeing with the fact that because of this people are going to start trying to become animals....

That quote reeked of the "if we let gays marry, what's next, marrying animals!!" And I don't want any part of that one.

Yes, it comes off the same way to me too.

This emotional impact on either group isn't measurable.

Blocking puberty will not mean they cannot , nor guarentee they can, pass for the opposite sex as an adult. They will still have to tell any potential partners they were born the opposite.

They sure as hell won't pass in grade/highschool where the swap will guarentee them being made into a pin cushion for every bully in the area.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
A Trans boy does not become a girl after hormone blockers or even a surgery. They are just the best facsimile of a girl that we can turn a boy into.

Maybe so, but he or she can certainly pass for the other gender. Moreso when the reassignment operation is done during childhood.

So I think the first point about some one wanting to be an animal is fair. Because, no we couldn't make them an animal, but we could make them the closest facsimile of an animal a human can get. Exactly the same as making a boy the closest facsimile of a girl we can.

Not even on the same level. Attempting to make a human into an animal will just result in them looking like a human with animal features. They wouldn't be able to pass for that animal. EVER. Again. A transperson can still pass for the opposite gender since they are still human.

But I'm not agreeing with the fact that because of this people are going to start trying to become animals....

That quote reeked of the "if we let gays marry, what's next, marrying animals!!" And I don't want any part of that one.

Yes, it comes off the same way to me too.

This emotional impact on either group isn't measurable.

Blocking puberty will not mean they cannot , nor guarentee they can, pass for the opposite sex as an adult. They will still have to tell any potential partners they were born the opposite.

They sure as hell won't pass in grade/highschool where the swap will guarentee them being made into a pin cushion for every bully in the area.

I work with high school and middle school kids after school. The tides are definitely changing. It is far more excepted than ever before. The fact that you even hear about the bullying of trans kids is a big step. It used to just get hushed and swept under the rug.

I also twice a year do an after school week long antibullying /self defence class. Most of it is based in posture, psychology, and language but there are physical self defence aspects. Best way to deal with bullys is confidence. They prey on the weak.

So a trans kid feeling confident not looking like the opposite sex of their gender identity (remaining androgenous before puberty) is a big step in confidence.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
This emotional impact on either group isn't measurable.

Emotional impacts by their nature aren't measurable. So this was an obvious statement.

Blocking puberty will not mean they cannot , nor guarentee they can, pass for the opposite sex as an adult. They will still have to tell any potential partners they were born the opposite.

There are no guarantees in life, but that shouldn't be a reason not to try. Plus I'm sure the downside of telling your sex partner your original gender is a small sacrifice to these people compared to what they were feeling before transition.

They sure as hell won't pass in grade/highschool where the swap will guarentee them being made into a pin cushion for every bully in the area.

This isn't the 1980's anymore.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yes because the difference between having boobs or a penis is TOTALLY the same as not having eye stalks, long ears, a tail, multiple eyes, multiple legs, or any other number of vastly non-human features animals can have. And that doesn't even touch on animal behaviors or senses that they have that we don't (a human would never be able to smell like a wolf for instance).

You keep trying to make it about the severity of the physical changes while ignoring the fact that it boils down to both individuals feeling like something they are not physically.

Irregardless with technology,biomed and surgical advancement those things can or will be overcome.

That's why it is reversible.

Physically to some extent but mentally not so sure.

Hence why families are required to go through extensive counseling before going through with this procedure.

That is a good thing. Like I said I feel for the families having to go through it and hope they make the best decision for the child.

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Krazysh0t
You keep trying to make it about the severity of the physical changes while ignoring the fact that it boils down to both individuals feeling like something they are not physically.

And you keep trying to ignore the severity of the differences, regardless of feelings. All so you can conflate the two conditions. YOU are the one trying to oversimplify the two situations to enable your comparison. You are trying to compare a mountain to an anthill in differences and trying to say that JUST because they are piles of dirt they are the same thing.

Irregardless with technology,biomed and surgical advancement those things will be overcome?

Irregardless isn't a word, and if they are overcome. Good for those people, but it still isn't the same thing as being transgendered.

Physically to some extent but mentally not so sure.

You are comparing hypothetical mental damage to very REAL mental damage the person will be experiencing living in the wrong gender that has been proven to lead to an elevated risk for suicide? Yea. I don't think that comparison is really valid. I'm sure there are some trans people who regret their change, but there is no evidence to suggest that the number is large enough for it to be a widespread problem where we need to alter the way we permit the go ahead to receive this procedure.

That is a good thing. Like I said I feel for the families having to go through it.

I just want to mind my own business. If a family feels it is the right course of action, who am I to say no?

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
A Trans boy does not become a girl after hormone blockers or even a surgery. They are just the best facsimile of a girl that we can turn a boy into.

Maybe so, but he or she can certainly pass for the other gender. Moreso when the reassignment operation is done during childhood.

So I think the first point about some one wanting to be an animal is fair. Because, no we couldn't make them an animal, but we could make them the closest facsimile of an animal a human can get. Exactly the same as making a boy the closest facsimile of a girl we can.

Not even on the same level. Attempting to make a human into an animal will just result in them looking like a human with animal features. They wouldn't be able to pass for that animal. EVER. Again. A transperson can still pass for the opposite gender since they are still human.

But I'm not agreeing with the fact that because of this people are going to start trying to become animals....

That quote reeked of the "if we let gays marry, what's next, marrying animals!!" And I don't want any part of that one.

Yes, it comes off the same way to me too.

This emotional impact on either group isn't measurable.

Blocking puberty will not mean they cannot , nor guarentee they can, pass for the opposite sex as an adult. They will still have to tell any potential partners they were born the opposite.

They sure as hell won't pass in grade/highschool where the swap will guarantee them being made into a pin cushion for every bully in the area.

So, You see 'Passing' as being the assumed goal of any person undergoing transition?
Sorry to inform you but this is not a measure that is accepted by medical professions or even by a majority of trans individuals. This kind of thinking is decades out of date not to mention insulting to non trans individuals who might in other peoples eyes look like they were someone in the wrong gender.

Also, by saying that it's a bad idea because it would open up that kid to bullying you are by subtext legitimizing the bullying and discrimination against trans people, regardless of their medical, hormonal or psychological status.

Proposing that someone not address their own mental health for fear of what other might think or how they might act is likely to increase any distress or anxiety for any child.

a reply to: luthier

Of course anyone who goes against the current radical trend is going to have the radicals complain that their work is misused misrepresented or whatever. Also could you supply a link please. On second thought if it's from
Salon Huffpo MoveOn or ThinkProgress or some other Progressive site don't bother.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Point of information:

Number of people who come to regret or seek to reverse a medical transition = approx 2%

Number of children who are treated at an early age for gender dsyphoria who then go on to seek full transition once they are old enough = approx 20%

The earlier a child enters treatment and supervision for gender dysphoria, the LESS likely they are to go on to seek / require full or partial transition in later life.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
A Trans boy does not become a girl after hormone blockers or even a surgery. They are just the best facsimile of a girl that we can turn a boy into.

Maybe so, but he or she can certainly pass for the other gender. Moreso when the reassignment operation is done during childhood.

So I think the first point about some one wanting to be an animal is fair. Because, no we couldn't make them an animal, but we could make them the closest facsimile of an animal a human can get. Exactly the same as making a boy the closest facsimile of a girl we can.

Not even on the same level. Attempting to make a human into an animal will just result in them looking like a human with animal features. They wouldn't be able to pass for that animal. EVER. Again. A transperson can still pass for the opposite gender since they are still human.

But I'm not agreeing with the fact that because of this people are going to start trying to become animals....

That quote reeked of the "if we let gays marry, what's next, marrying animals!!" And I don't want any part of that one.

Yes, it comes off the same way to me too.

This emotional impact on either group isn't measurable.

Blocking puberty will not mean they cannot , nor guarentee they can, pass for the opposite sex as an adult. They will still have to tell any potential partners they were born the opposite.

They sure as hell won't pass in grade/highschool where the swap will guarentee them being made into a pin cushion for every bully in the area.

I work with high school and middle school kids after school. The tides are definitely changing. It is far more excepted than ever before. The fact that you even hear about the bullying of trans kids is a big step. It used to just get hushed and swept under the rug.

I also twice a year do an after school week long antibullying /self defence class. Most of it is based in posture, psychology, and language but there are physical self defence aspects. Best way to deal with bullys is confidence. They prey on the weak.

So a trans kid feeling confident not looking like the opposite sex of their gender identity (remaining androgenous before puberty) is a big step in confidence.

I agree it's getting better, and hopefully one day we will know enough to invent some form of test to ensure we get it right....but that isn't today.

So if you make that decision today. Then you are no question putting your child at the center of a tornado of @$$ holes.

My way to handle it, to recap:

Let your kid be themselves at home, but at school dress the kid some what unisex and maybe come up with a unisex version of their name. If there name is Keven Collins, go by KC instead.

That way your child can complete school work and such without being a target.

I would explain how no one gets to be themselves in public. We all play a role. If not I would go to work in my boxers and smoke pot at my desk .but instead I iron my shirt and wait till the ride home to smoke.

The earlier your kid learns that almost none of being an adult involves "what you want to do" and the vast majority requires you to do stuff you don't" the better off the kid will be.

I do not see a crazy amount of mental anguish comming from this plan. The kid doesn't have to play a role constantly, just where it is in the kids best interest.

And no I would not punish them for being discovered or telling people. But I would not send my male sone dressed as a pretty pretty princess, when I KNOW he is likely to be assaulted, just because I want to make a political statement about right and wrong.

a reply to: redshoes

Those are some good statistics to consider. As you are showing the counseling part of the transition process (which most naysayers conveniently ignore or skip over) is a key part in making sure the correct decision is reached.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
Kids have ganged up and bullied any kid that was different, for all of human history.

And even though it isn't right, you will even have parents, teachers and such gang up on your kid today in 2016.

Right and wrong don't mean much to the reality of a situation.

Plus, until there is some form of definitive test, the parents will face ALOT of push back from employers, neighbors and family members, and be looked at as horrible parents....and not just by religious crazies.

originally posted by: redshoes
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Point of information:

Number of people who come to regret or seek to reverse a medical transition = approx 2%

Number of children who are treated at an early age for gender dsyphoria who then go on to seek full transition once they are old enough = approx 20%

The earlier a child enters treatment and supervision for gender dysphoria, the LESS likely they are to go on to seek / require full or partial transition in later life.

That's pretty great info!!!

But the 2% can't include trans children who took hormones, because none of them have reached 20 yet.

And ONLY 20% actually complete the process!?!?

That's not a good number at all!

So that means that 80% of people treated as children for being transgendered, do not continue living as the opposite sex for their whole life?!?

Or am I understanding that wrong?

a reply to: JoshuaCox

So just add transgender to the long list of stupid things kids pick to bully other kids over. We both know that that list is completely arbitrary and up to the kid anyways. People get bullied for being too pretty, too ugly, too fat, too skinny, too smart, too dumb, too anything. So there is no point in sitting there saying, "well we shouldn't go through with this. Think about the bullying?" # the bullying. It is part of being a kid. If it wasn't transgendered, they'd be making fun of the kid because he was too effeminate for a boy or something else equally stupid.

Plus, until there is some form of definitive test, the parents will face ALOT of push back from employers, neighbors and family members, and be looked at as horrible parents....and not just by religious crazies.

Hence the counseling.

PS: Have you heard of Jazz Jennings?
Transge nder Teen Jazz Jennings Talks Bullying and Suicide Prevention on The Meredith Vieira Show—Watch

a reply to: redshoes

Link please

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: redshoes

Those are some good statistics to consider. As you are showing the counseling part of the transition process (which most naysayers conveniently ignore or skip over) is a key part in making sure the correct decision is reached.

Actually I got the opposite from those numbers.....

I got that the original diagnosis being correct , can't be above 50%...because only 20% complete the transition...

So assuming say 30% do continue to live as the opposite sex, but don't get the operation. That means they are only getting the diagnosis right 50% of the time!!!

So we should be stopping a kids growth cycle, for a 50% success rate?!?!

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Again. Reversibility.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: JoshuaCox

So just add transgender to the long list of stupid things kids pick to bully other kids over. We both know that that list is completely arbitrary and up to the kid anyways. People get bullied for being too pretty, too ugly, too fat, too skinny, too smart, too dumb, too anything. So there is no point in sitting there saying, "well we shouldn't go through with this. Think about the bullying?" # the bullying. It is part of being a kid. If it wasn't transgendered, they'd be making fun of the kid because he was too effeminate for a boy or something else equally stupid.

Plus, until there is some form of definitive test, the parents will face ALOT of push back from employers, neighbors and family members, and be looked at as horrible parents....and not just by religious crazies.

Hence the counseling.

Those things don't ensure your kid is the primary target of bullies, every single grade, every single school, every single town.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: JoshuaCox

So just add transgender to the long list of stupid things kids pick to bully other kids over. We both know that that list is completely arbitrary and up to the kid anyways. People get bullied for being too pretty, too ugly, too fat, too skinny, too smart, too dumb, too anything. So there is no point in sitting there saying, "well we shouldn't go through with this. Think about the bullying?" # the bullying. It is part of being a kid. If it wasn't transgendered, they'd be making fun of the kid because he was too effeminate for a boy or something else equally stupid.

Plus, until there is some form of definitive test, the parents will face ALOT of push back from employers, neighbors and family members, and be looked at as horrible parents....and not just by religious crazies.

Hence the counseling.

Those things don't ensure your kid is the primary target of bullies, every single grade, every single school, every single town.

Yes, because people go around announcing their transgenderism to the whole school in every school they move to. /sarc

a reply to: Krazysh0t

www.pbs.org...


The first case was in 2007, here is a good article showing the pluses and negatives.

It is nearly unknown what the long term effects of blocking puberty both for life, and during its normal phases. All the long term studies, the kids stopped taking them at normal puberty time.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
A Trans boy does not become a girl after hormone blockers or even a surgery. They are just the best facsimile of a girl that we can turn a boy into.

Maybe so, but he or she can certainly pass for the other gender. Moreso when the reassignment operation is done during childhood.

So I think the first point about some one wanting to be an animal is fair. Because, no we couldn't make them an animal, but we could make them the closest facsimile of an animal a human can get. Exactly the same as making a boy the closest facsimile of a girl we can.

Not even on the same level. Attempting to make a human into an animal will just result in them looking like a human with animal features. They wouldn't be able to pass for that animal. EVER. Again. A transperson can still pass for the opposite gender since they are still human.

But I'm not agreeing with the fact that because of this people are going to start trying to become animals....

That quote reeked of the "if we let gays marry, what's next, marrying animals!!" And I don't want any part of that one.

Yes, it comes off the same way to me too.

This emotional impact on either group isn't measurable.

Blocking puberty will not mean they cannot , nor guarentee they can, pass for the opposite sex as an adult. They will still have to tell any potential partners they were born the opposite.

They sure as hell won't pass in grade/highschool where the swap will guarentee them being made into a pin cushion for every bully in the area.

I work with high school and middle school kids after school. The tides are definitely changing. It is far more excepted than ever before. The fact that you even hear about the bullying of trans kids is a big step. It used to just get hushed and swept under the rug.

I also twice a year do an after school week long antibullying /self defence class. Most of it is based in posture, psychology, and language but there are physical self defence aspects. Best way to deal with bullys is confidence. They prey on the weak.

So a trans kid feeling confident not looking like the opposite sex of their gender identity (remaining androgenous before puberty) is a big step in confidence.

I agree it's getting better, and hopefully one day we will know enough to invent some form of test to ensure we get it right....but that isn't today.

So if you make that decision today. Then you are no question putting your child at the center of a tornado of @$$ holes.

My way to handle it, to recap:

Let your kid be themselves at home, but at school dress the kid some what unisex and maybe come up with a unisex version of their name. If there name is Keven Collins, go by KC instead.

That way your child can complete school work and such without being a target.

I would explain how no one gets to be themselves in public. We all play a role. If not I would go to work in my boxers and smoke pot at my desk

.but instead I iron my shirt and wait till the ride home to smoke.

The earlier your kid learns that almost none of being an adult involves "what you want to do" and the vast majority requires you to do stuff you don't" the better off the kid will be.

I do not see a crazy amount of mental anguish comming from this plan. The kid doesn't have to play a role constantly, just where it is in the kids best interest.

And no I would not punish them for being discovered or telling people. But I would not send my male sone dressed as a pretty pretty princess, when I KNOW he is likely to be assaulted, just because I want to make a political statement about right and wrong.

It doesn't matter what you see it matters what reality is. If your plan didn't work what would you do? I have to constantly adjust my plan to get a positive result with my son. Thats just being a parent. The parents with rigid plans often have the most trouble adapting to challenges.