Transgendered children: should a parent be able to chemically alter a child's sex?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
Weather or not the process would fix her depression exc is hypothetical.

That she would be bullied (assuming you don't home school) is not hypothetical.

Actually you couldn't be more wrong. Your bullying scenarios rely on quite a few "what-ifs". Gender reassignment surgery has a very good chance of helping depressed people with gender dysphoria. It may not be a given, but there is a correlation there that don't rely on fuzzy what-ifs.

Hell even I'm my bs plan, there is a strong likelihood of bullying.

A total swap in grade school would guarentee it, prob putting your kids name at the top of the bully list.

You put too much weight on bullying... It really can be a manageable problem. Especially if you can get the faculty on your side (which they should be). If the faculty is contributing to the problem, then change schools or report it to the school superintendent

As a person who actually actively takes part in anti bullying tactics for youth I can say confidence and posture are huge factors with the most common forms of bullying. Of coarse this isn't true for your psychos but they are fairly rare. I have a 13 year old strait boy he has a trans friend ftm. My son has a blackbelt and is a wrestler. He knows to protect the meek. In fact he flipped a bully who was choking him from behind strait onto his back on the pavement (saio nage) about three weeks ago. The whole group of bullies completely leave his group alone. Luckily a teacher saw the whole thing and he didn't get in trouble.

Most of the time bullies respond to confidence , posture , and language. If that doesn't work well sometimes you either get beat up or you turn it around on the person. I highly recommend basic self defence to any kids with confidence issues. The Gracie Brazilian JiuJitsu schools usually offer a good program. I base mine of of theirs a bit.

Bullying is an issue now because it's been brought to the forefront. It's better than it ever has been except for the following online aspect of it in social media. That can be tricky.
Which is where the confidence aspect of the whole situation comes in.

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Krazysh0t
Doesn't look like either one is going to budge on this .

Guess not.

Merriam Webster
I bet those same people feel equally as discriminated against if not more so .

Hey now. Why did you cut out the last line of that paragraph?

Use regardless instead.

Agreed.

At least we agree on something.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Hey now. Why did you cut out the last line of that paragraph?

LOL, preferences but its still is a word.

a reply to: BlackProject yah the schools are making it such an issue that gender identity awareness is part of the sex ed program for such as the 5th grade so whose lives is that getting involved with?

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: BlackProject yah the schools are making it such an issue that gender identity awareness is part of the sex ed program for such as the 5th grade so whose lives is that getting involved with?

Maybe we can stick our hand in front of the projector and turn the sound off when we get to that part.

originally posted by: clevargenuis
Call me old fashioned but if a child is biologically male i.e born with male organs and male genes, then its MALE. Same applies to a kid born with female organs/genes..Its FEMALE.

Am i a hater and a bigot for having this opinion?

Old fashioned?

I'm 70 and had the open mindedness to research and learn.

Late to the party but there's a reason for that. I logged in yesterday to see the OP had started this thread and it made me very upset. We were having the exact same conversation in another thread and with all the other trans-antogonism, uninformed anti-trans opinions and attitudes and of course the absurd debate of who should be allowed to pee where, it was overwhelming.

As some of you know, I post here as an advocate for transgender children and their families and have spent multiple tens of hours working here to bring some understanding and awareness to this subject. Things I saw here in the last week and then this thread and two others yesterday made me just sit and cry and I simply didn't have the strength to come in here and deal with it. Today is a new day and I would appreciate if folks tried to hear me out with an open mind because I am somewhat of an expert in this subject, perhaps even an authority and my qualifications unimpeachable.

Although folks choose to dismiss the question or the concept entirely when it is asked: At what age were you sure you were a boy or a girl? How about 7? Would there have been anything at that age your parents could have done to convince you that you were not the boy or girl you knew yourself to be? How about at 10? How about 15? Has a single soul here ever questioned what gender or sex they are?


People don't question their gender because it is the underlying basis for personality and who we all are as people to ourselves and to others and this sense of our gender and the feelings about it originates from the mind which is the source of all our feelings, thoughts and perceptions. Without our brains and awareness and consciousness, we are just meat so yeah, being trans is in your head - what isn't?

To illustrate how gender can be separate from the physical sexed anatomy of our bodies, take the soldier who has his genitals blown off in an explosion. Is he suddenly going to feel like a woman and want to put on a dress or because his gender tells him he's a man and he knows it, he's still going to be a man and act like a man?

Where does this feeling of "being a man" i.e. gender come from if not from the mind and from our personalities that form in early childhood. If this makes sense, then it shows a person's sense of what gender they are isn't necessarily contingent upon what is between their legs and the above question shows most people solidly know what gender they are even as kids. Agreed so far?

Transgender children can have their own deeply held knowledge of what gender they are and is not the result of confusion about gender identity or pretense. Research: Transgender Kids Show Consistent Gender Identity Across Measures

One thing that's been entirely left out of this discussion and something all you well meaning folks seem to discount or don't think matters is what your kids might have to say about all this. Most have given the impression that kids know absolutely nothing, couldn't possibly know what they're talking about and that you as parents are entirely in charge of how your kids turn out. Try giving kids a little more credit. They aren't all as dumb as you think and many transgender kids show a certain wisdom and clarity in these things that far exceed their years.
Let's take a look at one person's perspective

originally posted by: JadeStar
I told my parents the same thing when I was 3.. This lasted until age 7 when my parents finally allowed me to live as I was meant to.

My parents didn't start believing me until I was 5 or 6 and I was finally allowed to be the girl I am at home at least at 7 and publicly starting at 12. I wish my parents had believed me at age 3. The years I was forced to live as a boy were among my saddest years

Today, I'm a 20 year old young woman who is in college and living a pretty normal life. In my day to day life, no one even knows I was born any different unless I say so.

Her story as well as posts by both her mother and father on the things they had to deal with, go through and learn about begins HERE If you don't know the story of Jade and her family, please take the time to read it and see if you as parents have the strength and courage to help your child like they did.

I also know of another very young boy that told his parents the same thing persistently, consistently and insistently over time that he was a girl. He was punished for speaking his truth and silenced but actions spoke louder than words. He was a girl anyway that had nothing to do with toys or sparkly dresses.

As he entered school, life became nothing but bullying and ridicule. At 9, he was savagely beaten and stripped naked by older kids wanting to check if he was really a boy or a girl. At 12, he was expelled for having hair too long. At 14, a group attacked again with shouts of faggot and queer with broken bones and stitches and cops and hospitals. At 15 his parents finally started to get it. At 16/17, people couldn't really tell if "it" was a he or a she. In 1973 at 18, her parents welcomed their new daughter unconditionally. At 19, she began her career and no one knew of her past. At 22, she took the final steps to became fully female. At 30, she was married. At 42, divorced. At 61, she sat writing this post on a message board.

If your child says they are not the gender you think they are because of their parts, LISTEN. Get help. Do whatever it takes but support your children because if you don't they will suffer in great pain, want to die and live in misery. If your child's quality of life will be better by socially transitioning, let them - it can't be any worse. If you can prevent natal puberty, do it because it will prevent pain and great expense to un-do and not leave residual artifacts.

Please, make some efforts to understand this and don't brand parents and kids as monsters.

M edical Intervention in Transgender Adolescents Appears to be Safe and Effective
Why Do We Delay Puberty for Trans-Identifying Kids?
Transgender teens become happy, healthy young adults
Born this way: Stories of young transgender children

originally posted by: redshoes
Number of children who are treated at an early age for gender dsyphoria who then go on to seek full transition once they are old enough = approx 20%

The earlier a child enters treatment and supervision for gender dysphoria, the LESS likely they are to go on to seek / require full or partial transition in later life.

I appreciate the comments you have made in this thread but the 80% desist number has been proven to be a fallacy. Gender clinics across the country that treat children actually say by adolescence, very few of these kids actually desist.

The End of the Desistance Myth

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: redshoes
Number of children who are treated at an early age for gender dsyphoria who then go on to seek full transition once they are old enough = approx 20%

The earlier a child enters treatment and supervision for gender dysphoria, the LESS likely they are to go on to seek / require full or partial transition in later life.

I appreciate the comments you have made in this thread but the 80% desist number has been proven to be a fallacy. Gender clinics across the country that treat children actually say by adolescence, very few of these kids actually desist.

The End of the Desistance Myth

Good source, I can buy that the 80% study used jacked up factors. Seemed too low to me as well, which is why I BS'd it to 50%.


But there was some stuff I really didn't like...


A: it provided no new stat. It claimed the 80% stat was garbage, but I could site no specific study with competing results. Instead using words like "few and most." Words never found in a scientific study.

B: the Dr. The article villified, in the article , was not responsible for the initial study, but it kinda makes it seem like he was. I had to re read it, before I caught the part where it said he was "a big fan of this theory." Then went on for the majority of the article, about this really biased POS dr. Who has no bearing on the initial study...I think, huff Po is trying to "Iraq war" the bad dr...making the reader think he did the study, to devalue it.....even if the study is horribly wrong (which I don't doubt) the Dr. Highlighted had nothing to do with it.

Which is fairly obvious propaganda...

I mean come on, they put the worst case scenerio psychologist in an article refuting a study, when that dr. didn't do the study....

I'm guessing the Dr. who actually did the study, must be pretty reputable...not to say he didn't blow the study...just that I bet they left him out of it on purpose...



"

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Why do you even care about this anyway? What's it to you?

Oh gee, here's another Huff Po article if you liked that one. Ignore the title but please do read it. Several may apply?

How to Spot Anti-Trans Concern Trolls

a reply to: Annee

Annee I know you think that was terribly clever but maybe a mirror would help you reflect.

a reply to: Freija

Sadly anything from Huffpo is leftist propaganda
Here's the worthy opponent to your huffpo www.thenewamerican.com...

The ultra-leftist Southern Poverty Law Center, described by critics as a radical anti-Christian hate group, was recently implicated in a federal terrorism case after a deranged homosexual activist, citing SPLC hate propaganda, tried to massacre employees at a pro-family group's headquarters. Now, the self-styled “civil rights” outfit is stepping up its campaign to indoctrinate your children. The controversial Alabama-based group, widely ridiculed and criticized even by left-wing leaders for shady practices and deception, recently unveiled a new Common Core-aligned “educational” campaign. It is designed to inject even more pro-homosexual, pro-transgender propaganda into school classrooms across America, along with identity politics, collectivism, “white privilege,” “social justice,” and more. However, the “Teaching Tolerance” materials, which the SPLC claims are used by schools and educators reaching “millions of students,” are attracting scrutiny and outrage. Indeed, the propaganda would likely upset just about any parent, regardless of their political views. Under the guise of promoting what the intolerant SPLC calls “tolerance,” for example, students in kindergarten through second grade subjected to the SPLC “anti-bias” propaganda will learn, among other things, to ignore their parents and become cross-dressers if they feel like they were born in the wrong body. That lesson comes from the book 10,000 Dresses by Marcus Ewert, one of several SPLC-recommended texts for K-2 “teaching tolerance” lessons on “gender” highlighted by activists and media reports.

So how fun is that.... They are deliberately teaching the kids to ignore their parents. That's always been the goal of Marxist secular humanist values clarification and this current trend is values clarification on steroids.

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
Sadly anything from Huffpo is leftist propaganda

An intelligent person looks at both sides of an issue before making a decision or judgement so guess you don't fall into that category. I also didn't know we were limited to using only using right-wing conservative fundamental propaganda or statements from identified hate groups like the American College of Pediatricians you linked.

Hey! I can edit too!
Your thenewamerican.com is nothing but right wing spittle

Some sites like:
glenbeck.com
billoreilly.com
rushlimbaugh.com
renewamerica.com

Anybody with a lick of sense can see right through the bs in your quote. Sorry

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: Annee

Annee I know you think that was terribly clever but maybe a mirror would help you reflect.

On what?

Don't have time to read the whole thread but the simple answer is NO...

When the child is mentally old enough to be judged competent to understand the ramifications of the swap then and only then must the choice be allowed to the young adult.

Anything less would be a failure of science and protection of the mind.

originally posted by: amicktd
I think it would be sick and disgusting to alter the sex of your child before they became an adult.

Age of majority... Then they can make their own decisions about their sexuality when it comes to chemical alterations.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Its clear from your posts on this topic that you are largely ignorant of the adopted procedures for dealing with such cases.

Specifically, hormone treatment would not be prescribed for anyone who identifies as gender fluid.

Gender fluidity is not something you 'suffer' from. It's a state of expression, not a medically recognized condition. That's exactly the reason that hormone therapy is not automatically prescribed when a child behaves gender non conformingly. (I think i made that new word up - hope I'm being clear.)

Many princes, poets, and generals were dressed in petticoats and so forth as young children. Bruce Lee was as well. So how a prepubescent child is dressed does not have much impact on their capacity to lead or succeed, or historically make them deviants with no examples to look up to, although if done incorrectly, the effect can lead to bullying and associated psychological trauma.

The real issue is medical intervention. A child hits puberty between 10 and 12. Girls sooner than boys. By then, you should already have the decision made. Once puberty starts, secondary sex characteristics begin and it becomes increasingly difficult for the child to make successful transition as an adult. By the time they hit the age of Bruce Jenner, their hopes of becoming like Harisu are dead. For girls becoming boys, the fat distribution in the hips and the development of breast tissue create lasting problems. Special shirts have to be worn and these shirts compress the chest causing all sorts of problems.

Particularly dangerous for either child is the exposure to public nudity, such as in a gym shower, or while swimming in a public location. The water causes a form compression against the surface of the body making it very obvious. Material also becomes translucent when wet. This can be disconcerting if the child is already on hormone replacement therapy as they will exhibit both sex characteristics, leading to confusion and bullying.

Later in life, the adult will have to deal with things like public showers in the military, translucent clothing in religious full submersion baptisms, Japanese and European style bath houses, fraternity and sorority hazing, sexual encounters during dating and marriage, infertility counseling, and uncomfortable questions at the fitting room for formal attire, just to name a few.

An artificial environment, a safe space is necessary to protect a child in transition until medical intervention can secure a relatively normal life. Without intervention, however, the prospect for a normal life decreases exponentially with every year after puberty. Half measures, such as hormones or electrolysis without surgical intervention actually increase the risks to the person's livelihood and sanity.

originally posted by: skynet2015
Many princes, poets, and generals were dressed in petticoats and so forth as young children. Bruce Lee was as well. So how a prepubescent child is dressed does not have much impact on their capacity to lead or succeed, or historically make them deviants with no examples to look up to, although if done incorrectly, the effect can lead to bullying and associated psychological trauma.

The real issue is medical intervention. A child hits puberty between 10 and 12. Girls sooner than boys. By then, you should already have the decision made. Once puberty starts, secondary sex characteristics begin and it becomes increasingly difficult for the child to make successful transition as an adult. By the time they hit the age of Bruce Jenner, their hopes of becoming like Harisu are dead. For girls becoming boys, the fat distribution in the hips and the development of breast tissue create lasting problems. Special shirts have to be worn and these shirts compress the chest causing all sorts of problems.

Particularly dangerous for either child is the exposure to public nudity, such as in a gym shower, or while swimming in a public location. The water causes a form compression against the surface of the body making it very obvious. Material also becomes translucent when wet. This can be disconcerting if the child is already on hormone replacement therapy as they will exhibit both sex characteristics, leading to confusion and bullying.

Later in life, the adult will have to deal with things like public showers in the military, translucent clothing in religious full submersion baptisms, Japanese and European style bath houses, fraternity and sorority hazing, sexual encounters during dating and marriage, infertility counseling, and uncomfortable questions at the fitting room for formal attire, just to name a few.

An artificial environment, a safe space is necessary to protect a child in transition until medical intervention can secure a relatively normal life. Without intervention, however, the prospect for a normal life decreases exponentially with every year after puberty. Half measures, such as hormones or electrolysis without surgical intervention actually increase the risks to the person's livelihood and sanity.

1) being dressed kinda effeminatly by your mother is NOT, being dressed totally like the opposite sex AND expecting everyone to pretend the person that was a boy yesterday, is a girl today.

A trans kid swapping, isn't even on the same planet as "my mother dressed me in a petty coat" when calculating how big of a target a kid could be....the petty coat thing will not "scar" you socially, nor dominate nearly every interaction the child has.

2) I'm not sure what the definition of a normal life is. That's pretty damn subjective. Pair that with the fact NONE of the trans kids given hormone blockers, have even reached 40. I don't know where the hell people are getting all those type stats.


There are no studies on the long term effects of blocking puberty indefinitely, nor blocking puberty until adulthood. All the studies that say it's not very invasive, are based on kids they took off puberty blockers at 13 (normal puberty age).

So every bit of that "it won't hurt a kid if they change their minds later", are false.

Blocking puberty ATLEAST causes bone mass loss and chemical changes to the brain that could have a psychological effect on the kid....at least.

originally posted by: redshoes
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Its clear from your posts on this topic that you are largely ignorant of the adopted procedures for dealing with such cases.

Specifically, hormone treatment would not be prescribed for anyone who identifies as gender fluid.

Gender fluidity is not something you 'suffer' from. It's a state of expression, not a medically recognized condition. That's exactly the reason that hormone therapy is not automatically prescribed when a child behaves gender non conformingly. (I think i made that new word up - hope I'm being clear.)

I'm with you, it's not a medical condition nor did I think your post meant only trans kids have a fluid gender.

What I'm saying is that if gender is fluid for nearly everyone, which I thought was your posts point. Then there is no way we should be making changes with life long effects, to children.....