Transgendered children: should a parent be able to chemically alter a child's sex?

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Krazysh0t

because what characterizes the differences between genders is VASTLY different than what characterizes being a different species

Why is that? They are physically not what they think they are. Why does it matter if one thinks they are an animal vs the opposite of their physical sex? They both feel they are something they are not physically.

The only difference I see is that society is more accepting of one over the other, but give it time.

Keep in mind that age 4 trans cases are extreme cases. Most of these cases happen later in a child's childhood.

I have no problem with adults being what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others.

Actually there is a much more clearly defined difference. Changing a male's legal identity to female, or female to male, has no implications on the basic human rights of that individuals. There are international codes and laws which enshrine basic sets of human rights which do not apply to non humans and it is not legally possible for any individual to surrender these rights of their own accord.

Its a facile argument to compare gender identity to species identity and to be honest displays a fundamental ignorance of the complexities of not just trans issues but mental health issues. Isn't the code of this site to 'deny ignorance'? Yet through out this post I've seen plenty of examples of people expressing as fact, what is not true in reality based on, you guessed it ignorance.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I might be wrong here, but I think the first legal case of a kid getting hormone blockers was in 2013?!?!

That's when California passed the law allowing it, so wouldn't that be the first legal instance?

So , at least where kids are concerned this is 3 year old science?!?!

Not true. Kids have been receiving puberty blockers a lot longer than that, for other issues like early onset puberty.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I might be wrong here, but I think the first legal case of a kid getting hormone blockers was in 2013?!?!

That's when California passed the law allowing it, so wouldn't that be the first legal instance?

I dunno. You'll have to look it up.

So , at least where kids are concerned this is 3 year old science?!?!

Gotta be a ground floor to any science.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Krazysh0t
Why is that? They are physically not what they think they are. Why does it matter if one thinks they are an animal vs the opposite of their physical sex? They both feel they are something they are not physically.

For one animals cannot think rationally. Unless you lobotomized someone you wouldn't be able to achieve such a feet, but then that wouldn't work either since they'd have no animal instincts either. Animals have different senses and appendages too. Even our dna is dissimilar. You are doing the equivalent of comparing a small crevice to a canyon and saying that are both cracks in the ground it should be no problem getting through them.

The only difference I see is that society is more accepting of one over the other, but give it time.

That's because you are being obtuse here.

I have no problem with adults being what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others.

I'm more talking about children in the 8-12 year old range.

A Trans boy does not become a girl after hormone blockers or even a surgery. They are just the best facsimile of a girl that we can turn a boy into.

So I think the first point about some one wanting to be an animal is fair. Because, no we couldn't make them an animal, but we could make them the closest facsimile of an animal a human can get. Exactly the same as making a boy the closest facsimile of a girl we can.



But I'm not agreeing with the fact that because of this people are going to start trying to become animals....

That quote reeked of the "if we let gays marry, what's next, marrying animals!!" And I don't want any part of that one.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Some people mired in propaganda do not know the following about Russia... in Russia you dont even have to identify as human... you can legally Identify as a Hobbit, Elf, Vampire or anything else you accept as your personal identity... also theres propaganda saying Putin is anti homosexual... well hes not, he just thinks it inappropriate to be hoisting such identies on children as sexual beings when they are obviously not of an age to be sexualized it extremely perverse to sexualize children their gender shouldnt even matter in equality and non bias... as they grow they will find and choose their identies themselves... but of course Western propaganda has twisted it saying Putin is anti homosexual.

Agendas are sometimes just as important to notice when following the money trails... to route out corruption.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I might be wrong here, but I think the first legal case of a kid getting hormone blockers was in 2013?!?!

That's when California passed the law allowing it, so wouldn't that be the first legal instance?

I dunno. You'll have to look it up.

So , at least where kids are concerned this is 3 year old science?!?!

Gotta be a ground floor to any science.

You don't use children to test ground floor science when only using feelings as a measurement of diagnosis....

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Some people mired in propaganda do not know the following about Russia... in Russia you dont even have to identify as human... you can legally Identify as a Hobbit, Elf, Vampire or anything else you accept as your personal identity... also theres propaganda saying Putin is anti homosexual... well hes not, he just thinks it inappropriate to be hoisting such identies on children as sexual beings when they are obviously not of an age to be sexualized it extremely perverse to sexualize children their gender shouldnt even matter in equality and non bias... as they grow they will find and choose their identies themselves... but of course Western propaganda has twisted it saying Putin is anti homosexual.

Agendas are sometimes just as important to notice when following the money trails... to route out corruption.

Except regular relationships are not regulated in Russia.....so no gay adult can be gay in front of children, but all straight people can be straight in front of children...with prison as a penalty...

Year that's fair...

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Animals have different senses and appendages too. Even our dna is dissimilar.

The same differences exist between males and females.

That's because you are being obtuse here.

A lycanthropy and a transgender individual both FEEL that they are something that they aren't physically. Perhaps its more ,that it doesn't fit into your narrative ?

I'm more talking about children in the 8-12 year old range.

Not saying I have the right answer, but it I would still be hesitant thinking that a 8-12 year old is able to make such life altering decisions .

Like I said I really do feel for families that have to deal with this and I only hope they chose the best option for the child.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I might be wrong here, but I think the first legal case of a kid getting hormone blockers was in 2013?!?!

That's when California passed the law allowing it, so wouldn't that be the first legal instance?

So , at least where kids are concerned this is 3 year old science?!?!

Not true. Kids have been receiving puberty blockers a lot longer than that, for other issues like early onset puberty.

Taking it to hold off puberty for a year or so, then allowing it to progress while still within the bodies normal cycle, is not the same as blocking puberty forever.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

If a child is present and impressionable do you think two people should be making out or bumping uglies in front of them? If a child is present and the focus is on some stages leading to coitus then obviously one needs to hire a baby sitter...

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
A Trans boy does not become a girl after hormone blockers or even a surgery. They are just the best facsimile of a girl that we can turn a boy into.

Maybe so, but he or she can certainly pass for the other gender. Moreso when the reassignment operation is done during childhood.

So I think the first point about some one wanting to be an animal is fair. Because, no we couldn't make them an animal, but we could make them the closest facsimile of an animal a human can get. Exactly the same as making a boy the closest facsimile of a girl we can.

Not even on the same level. Attempting to make a human into an animal will just result in them looking like a human with animal features. They wouldn't be able to pass for that animal. EVER. Again. A transperson can still pass for the opposite gender since they are still human.

But I'm not agreeing with the fact that because of this people are going to start trying to become animals....

That quote reeked of the "if we let gays marry, what's next, marrying animals!!" And I don't want any part of that one.

Yes, it comes off the same way to me too.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

You do if children are the ultimate demographic of who is going to be using them. At some point you have to take the plunge from clinical trials to humans. That's how all medicine works, Holmes. Even pediatric meds.

a reply to: redshoes

None of that changes the fact that both individuals FEEL that they are something which they are not physically.

BTW I love how the deny ignorance is thrown around when asking hard questions. Isn't that part of the process to ask questions and challenge conventional thinking ? Or is Deny Ignorance only used when it doesn't meet your predefined notions?

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Krazysh0t
The same differences exist between males and females.

Yes because the difference between having boobs or a penis is TOTALLY the same as not having eye stalks, long ears, a tail, multiple eyes, multiple legs, or any other number of vastly non-human features animals can have. And that doesn't even touch on animal behaviors or senses that they have that we don't (a human would never be able to smell like a wolf or fly like a bird for instance). Even our diets are dissimilar.

A lycanthropy and a transgender individual both FEEL that they are something that they aren't physically. Perhaps its more ,that it doesn't fit into your narrative ?

The point is that FAR more than just outward physical appearances need to be altered to pass for an animal.

Not saying I have the right answer, but it I would still be hesitant thinking that a 8-12 year old is able to make such life altering decisions .

That's why it is reversible.

Like I said I really do feel for families that have to deal with this and I only hope they chose the best option for the child.

Hence why families are required to go through extensive counseling before going through with this procedure.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I might be wrong here, but I think the first legal case of a kid getting hormone blockers was in 2013?!?!

That's when California passed the law allowing it, so wouldn't that be the first legal instance?

So , at least where kids are concerned this is 3 year old science?!?!

Not true. Kids have been receiving puberty blockers a lot longer than that, for other issues like early onset puberty.

Taking it to hold off puberty for a year or so, then allowing it to progress while still within the bodies normal cycle, is not the same as blocking puberty forever.

You said kids didn't start getting puberty blockers until 2013. Kids have been getting puberty blockers since before then. Just correcting your initial statement.

We had a (former) member here on ATS who received puberty blockers at age 12 for gender dysphoria issues, and she is now 21 (so, it was almost 10 years ago) and is doing great.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I might be wrong here, but I think the first legal case of a kid getting hormone blockers was in 2013?!?!

That's when California passed the law allowing it, so wouldn't that be the first legal instance?

So , at least where kids are concerned this is 3 year old science?!?!

Not true. Kids have been receiving puberty blockers a lot longer than that, for other issues like early onset puberty.

Taking it to hold off puberty for a year or so, then allowing it to progress while still within the bodies normal cycle, is not the same as blocking puberty forever.

You said kids didn't start getting puberty blockers until 2013. Kids have been getting puberty blockers since before then. Just correcting your initial statement.

We had a (former) member here on ATS who received puberty blockers at age 12 for gender dysphoria issues, and she is now 21 (so, it was almost 10 years ago) and is doing great.

Trans kids (what we are talking about) didn't start getting medicated until then.....

Semantics much?

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Well technically the long term effects would be the same, no?

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: JoshuaCox

If a child is present and impressionable do you think two people should be making out or bumping uglies in front of them? If a child is present and the focus is on some stages leading to coitus then obviously one needs to hire a baby sitter...

Making out, sure..

No one is advocating bumping uglies in public...

But that wasn't the point, the point is if a straight couple makes out in public it is legal, if a gay couple does it illegal...

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Krazysh0t
The same differences exist between males and females.

Yes because the difference between having boobs or a penis is TOTALLY the same as not having eye stalks, long ears, a tail, multiple eyes, multiple legs, or any other number of vastly non-human features animals can have. And that doesn't even touch on animal behaviors or senses that they have that we don't (a human would never be able to smell like a wolf for instance).

A lycanthropy and a transgender individual both FEEL that they are something that they aren't physically. Perhaps its more ,that it doesn't fit into your narrative ?

The point is that FAR more than just outward physical appearances need to be altered to pass for an animal.

Not saying I have the right answer, but it I would still be hesitant thinking that a 8-12 year old is able to make such life altering decisions .

That's why it is reversible.

Like I said I really do feel for families that have to deal with this and I only hope they chose the best option for the child.

Hence why families are required to go through extensive counseling before going through with this procedure.[/quote
Yep.

Nature already created duel sex and more rare no sex humans.

Not to mention if you study domestic scale culture in anthropology. These are the oldest long living cultures in the world, all kinds of sexual practices, gender roles, and even sex organ manipulation is prevelant. (The yanamami men make there penis look like a vagina...ouch)

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I might be wrong here, but I think the first legal case of a kid getting hormone blockers was in 2013?!?!

That's when California passed the law allowing it, so wouldn't that be the first legal instance?

So , at least where kids are concerned this is 3 year old science?!?!

Not true. Kids have been receiving puberty blockers a lot longer than that, for other issues like early onset puberty.

Taking it to hold off puberty for a year or so, then allowing it to progress while still within the bodies normal cycle, is not the same as blocking puberty forever.

You said kids didn't start getting puberty blockers until 2013. Kids have been getting puberty blockers since before then. Just correcting your initial statement.

We had a (former) member here on ATS who received puberty blockers at age 12 for gender dysphoria issues, and she is now 21 (so, it was almost 10 years ago) and is doing great.

Trans kids (what we are talking about) didn't start getting medicated until then.....

Semantics much?

Well we know it's been at least 10 years (did you read the rest of my post?) - and I'd be willing to bet it's been done longer than that in places like Europe.