Transgendered children: should a parent be able to chemically alter a child's sex?

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In a previous forum, I was discussing the (ridiculous) NC bathroom law, which lead me to debating Trans-children, and if and when parents should be allowed to "swap" them over, and when they should be allowed to begin hormone theropy and/or be surgically altered. So there is our topic.....


I'm a very liberal guy, I don't give on flying flip what any concenting adults do when not hurting some one else....however, I'm also a science guy, who has way less respect for feelings and emotions, than I do facts and measurable metrics.


In the previous post, I was debating a couple ATSers who's personal opinion was:

" That if a child consistently insists they are the opposite sex for years, and this insistence is validated by a medical professional. Then you should be "swapping" a kid over as early as 4, and then should begin hormone therapy as early as 9 or 10, it blunt the effects puberty will have on the child's body."

Is it just me, or is that the most insane timeline imaginable??


So we would be letting a 4 YEAR OLD make a life long decision?!?! Then we would be letting an 8 year old chemically alter their bodies natural growth?!?! All without a single physical test to confirm the child's condition?!?! There are no brain scans, DNA tests, blood tests, exc. every inch of this decision is made soley on the merit of a 4 year old's feelings?!??!

Now I personally believe sexual/gender orientation IS a biological issue. That some people are born wired "wrong" meaning their brains are born wired as the opposite sex as they were born. So I got no issue with people changing as adults, and using whatever bathroom they want.

But chemically altering children without any measurable test?!?!

Children are sooooo impressionable!!! What is to stop some "pageant mom", who always wanted a girl to dress up like a princess, from brainwashing, then chemically altering her son??? How would we know that was the case? There is no test, every bit of this is subjective. It's only based off how a (beep)ing 5 year old thinks!!!!

Look at feral children...the poor little girl from Russia, who was thrown in a dog pen with a dozen dogs, from 3 to 13. She "became a dog!" Now that is not a comparison or equating a trans kids parents, with the "dog girl's" monsterous parents. It is an example of how malleable a child's mind is.


Feral child


So seeing how "brainwashed" a person can be, how could we know what was the child's own (future )wishes as an adult will be, and what is being programmed into them by environmental elements?

If a kid is raised from 4 as the opposite sex, then continues to believe that way. how do we know that the kid would have still been trans if not for living that way since early childhood.


The burden of proof for socially and chemically altering a CHILDS life cycle, should be very high. Way higher than:

"he has said he was a girl from the time he was 2, and now he is 4. I'm going dress shopping!!"

In no other way do we trust a 4 year old's opinion, on that topic of that magnitude...

That would be the same as :

giving an overwieght 5 year old liposuction, because they feel like they are skinny.

Surgically implanting a turtle shell because " he really thinks he is ninja turtle.

Forcing the world to acknowledge an invisible friend,


Thoughts???



a reply to: JoshuaCox

Keep in mind that all prepubescent gender swapping procedures are just hormone blockers to keep the child from maturing. This is done for a few years right before the onset of puberty while the child decides if it wants to actually change genders or not. If they still want to go through with it then they start taking the hormones to develop their body with their preferred gender. If not, then they just stop taking the blockers and mature normally. Before puberty is even a thing, they just wear the opposite gender's clothing.

I really see nothing wrong with this procedure. It allows the child to grow up with their preferred gender's secondary sex characteristics and body definitions while also allowing the child to change their mind if they realized they made a mistake and were just going through a phase.

I think it would be sick and disgusting to alter the sex of your child before they became an adult. If they want a sex change, I'd say minimum age of consent at the very least. This is equivalent to allowing a child to enter into a home loan as a child, it just makes no sense to me. Why let them make a huge decision that will effect their entire life at such a young age?

No, they shouldn't.

In short.




TL;DR
It is insane...
I have no problems with gender indentity issues...

I believe people should be free to do what their brain tells them, ie that their genitalia doesn't match their chemistry.


But when you start altering children, as young as 4 no less, you start treading into dirty waters.


It should be a decision made by an adult, whether they want to lower that from 18 to 16 shouldn't cause too many problems.

But between 4-9 is just downright atrocious in my opinion.


You could argue who am I to decide what parents do...
But this isn't about parents...

It's about how the child will live out adulthood, and should be a sovereign decision of he individual when they reach an age where they understand.

Children are impressionable...
& also susceptible to peer pressure from guardians.




In short, no.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox



Is it just me, or is that the most insane timeline imaginable??

Yes, it's insane. What gets me is that there is significant portion of mental health professionals who are on board with this which is even more insane. Even a rudimentary understanding of childhood development would tell you that no child of 4, or 6 or 10 or maybe even 12 can make that decision. Even for adolescents it should be approached carefully. My jaw has been on the floor for the last year over this.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

These issues are decided by medical proffessionals who have spent their careers dealing with people with these problems. They do have tests that determine whether these kids are acctually fit for such procedures.

Do you understand the physical differences that can be observed in people who are fit for such procedures? There are plenty. You cannot fool the hormone tests and the brain functionality measures that must be undertaken to determine whether a person is a valid candidate.

The truth is that there are millions of people who feel that they were born with the wrong bits. That makes it a natural phenomenon. This is as old as the written word. Science is just now catching up.

The studies show that there is a much better rate of success when they go through this transition at a young age than if they wait till after puberty.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Our son is 4 years old.

Sometimes he "consistently insists" he is an Octonaut. Sometimes he "consistently insists" that he is Super Mario.

First of all, in the lifespan of a person 4 years is a blink of the eye so I don't know how "consistently insists" can be a "thing."

Second, a 4 year old, like you said, is incredibly impressionable. If I had the desire, I could question my son and lead him to say that he was born on Jupiter.

Third, while I have seem some 4 year old girls that are sort of "tom boys" and some 4 year old boys that are sort of "feminine," to say that a 4 year old can contemplate sex/gender/whatever is ridiculous (unless the parents are driving that point home all the time rather than focusing on other things like, lets say, I dunno, LEARNING how to read and problem solve and about nature and science). Even then, the 4 year old is only saying what he/she thinks the parents WANT to hear.

Leave the friggen kids alone with this stuff. It's like I often say about racism. I know it will never happen but if you want to end racism in a single generation.... LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE! My son's Pre-K class (as was his nursery school class) was very diverse. A little bit of almost everything in there. Guess what? NONE of the kids cared. The recognize that people look different from them (color of skin, taller kids, shorter kids, skinnier kids, fatter kids, etc) but it was no different than realizing that people have different faces. It's just a way for them to recognize each other. NONE of these 3 year olds (now 4 year olds) are racist in any way whatsoever. It's something that (unfortunately) is going to be taught to them.

Again, leave the friggen kids alone please. If an adolescent approaches a parent and has issues with gender or sexual orientation or whatever, I would hope that the parents are open to the discussion. BUT.... they should not be pushing any of this onto their kids.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Keep in mind that all prepubescent gender swapping procedures are just hormone blockers to keep the child from maturing. This is done for a few years right before the onset of puberty while the child decides if it wants to actually change genders or not. If they still want to go through with it then they start taking the hormones to develop their body with their preferred gender. If not, then they just stop taking the blockers and mature normally. Before puberty is even a thing, they just wear the opposite gender's clothing.

I really see nothing wrong with this procedure. It allows the child to grow up with their preferred gender's secondary sex characteristics and body definitions while also allowing the child to change their mind if they realized they made a mistake and were just going through a phase.

I'm highly doubtful that using hormone blockers throughout puberty would have little to no effect on the end result of the kid.... Puberty is a pretty big biological change and the long term use of almost no pharmaceuticals are "free." For example such as with opiates, you pay by detoxing.


But putting that aside , the parents still (in this scenerio) made this decision on the feelings of a 4 year old, who prob doesn't know the alphabet, let alone the long term consequences of even the swap. Then the kid was reinforced by the parents as the oppisite sex from 4 to 10....

Ok so how is that different from if the Russian girl (feral child) had begged her parents to live as a dog, before they put her in the kennel?

Wouldn't you have roughly the same level of ingrained mannerisms as a kid raised as trans?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Keep in mind that all prepubescent gender swapping procedures are just hormone blockers to keep the child from maturing. This is done for a few years right before the onset of puberty while the child decides if it wants to actually change genders or not. If they still want to go through with it then they start taking the hormones to develop their body with their preferred gender. If not, then they just stop taking the blockers and mature normally. Before puberty is even a thing, they just wear the opposite gender's clothing.

I really see nothing wrong with this procedure. It allows the child to grow up with their preferred gender's secondary sex characteristics and body definitions while also allowing the child to change their mind if they realized they made a mistake and were just going through a phase.

I'm highly doubtful that using hormone blockers throughout puberty would have little to no effect on the end result of the kid.... Puberty is a pretty big biological change and the long term use of almost no pharmaceuticals are "free." For example such as with opiates, you pay by detoxing.


But putting that aside , the parents still (in this scenerio) made this decision on the feelings of a 4 year old, who prob doesn't know the alphabet, let alone the long term consequences of even the swap. Then the kid was reinforced by the parents as the oppisite sex from 4 to 10....

Ok so how is that different from if the Russian girl (feral child) had begged her parents to live as a dog, before they put her in the kennel?

Wouldn't you have roughly the same level of ingrained mannerisms as a kid raised as trans?

Double

Have there been studies yet ? to see the effects mentally for people that went through the procedure at a young age... I would be interested to see if there were regrets (its not the right word but closest I can grab at the moment), or even suicidal thoughts etc as a result of having the procedure done.

I do not doubt that there are people in the wrong bodies for the way their brain is wired.... I have doubts that a 4 year old can come to grips with such a decision.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

When it's YOUR child, YOU can decide what should be done. You can dress them how YOU want, call them what YOU want, get them the medical care YOU want (altering their bodies), feed them what YOU want (altering their bodies), pierce their ears if YOU want (altering their bodies), get them braces (altering their bodies)... You get the idea.

If they are DIAGNOSED as gender dysphoric, their parents and doctors should decide the course of action, just as they would if the child is diagnosed as ADHD, having type I diabetes, or any other medical issue.

The public (including you, by some of the things you've said) is largely ignorant about gender dysphoria and should NOT decide... Unless you want the public to decide how you raise YOUR child... Leave it to the professionals. It's really not our business.

originally posted by: amicktd
I think it would be sick and disgusting to alter the sex of your child before they became an adult. If they want a sex change, I'd say minimum age of consent at the very least. This is equivalent to allowing a child to enter into a home loan as a child, it just makes no sense to me. Why let them make a huge decision that will effect their entire life at such a young age?

My thoughts exactly, we don't trust ANYTHING a 4 year old says, to the same level as this one issue. Like this one issue is soooo important for the ones who are legitimately Mis-wired, that it is worth any misdiagnosis or any other negative effects on non trans kids, as long as this relatively small group feels good about themselves....


All of that ignores the target you make your child. Like it or not, from the day your kid swaps, they are at the towns face of a social and political issue.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Parents of children are tasked with ensuring they bring them up to lead as healthy and vibrant a life as is possible, this is why parents assume responsibility to sign-off on dental care and other aspects of the child's life.

However, deciding to alter a child's sex is something quite different insofar that there are broad ramifications to consider prior to the child reaching full maturity.

So, if a law was enacted which allowed parents to make this decision on behalf of the child then this same law should have a facility which allows the child to seek compensation / disbursement and/or corrective surgery at their parents expense if they so desire upon reaching adulthood.

After all, it is literally a life-changing decision more so than a life-saving one.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

I'm highly doubtful that using hormone blockers throughout puberty would have little to no effect on the end result of the kid.... Puberty is a pretty big biological change and the long term use of almost no pharmaceuticals are "free." For example such as with opiates, you pay by detoxing.

Puberty blockers have been around for a while now. We have a good idea of their side effects.
Puberty blockers

But putting that aside , the parents still (in this scenerio) made this decision on the feelings of a 4 year old, who prob doesn't know the alphabet, let alone the long term consequences of even the swap. Then the kid was reinforced by the parents as the oppisite sex from 4 to 10....

So? Kids go through phases all the time. My cousin was a tomboy as a child. She grew up and is married now. Her brother would play with her barbies (before she became a tomboy that is). He's about to be married this August to a lovely lady. Kids will be kids. If the kid was truly going through a phase, then wearing dresses for a few years isn't going to destroy them as they become an adult.

Ok so how is that different from if the Russian girl (feral child) had begged her parents to live as a dog, before they put her in the kennel?

Wouldn't you have roughly the same level of ingrained mannerisms as a kid raised as trans?

Yes, because a man acting more effeminate than most or a female acting more masculine than most is SUCH a big deal in society versus a person wanting to live in a kennel. /sarc

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: JoshuaCox

These issues are decided by medical proffessionals who have spent their careers dealing with people with these problems. They do have tests that determine whether these kids are acctually fit for such procedures.

Do you understand the physical differences that can be observed in people who are fit for such procedures? There are plenty. You cannot fool the hormone tests and the brain functionality measures that must be undertaken to determine whether a person is a valid candidate.

The truth is that there are millions of people who feel that they were born with the wrong bits. That makes it a natural phenomenon. This is as old as the written word. Science is just now catching up.

The studies show that there is a much better rate of success when they go through this transition at a young age than if they wait till after puberty.

Medical officials are not infallible, and usually have hundreds of patients. Also I'm sure there are plenty of health care professionals willing to use a patient to make a political point, weather liberal or conservative.

I tried to find some reference to the brain scans and hormone tests you mentioned, but have found none. Could you please post a link?

If there were a brain scan that proved the child was born wired wrong, that is different. We can't change brain wiring, but we can change the gender stuff. So I got no problem with it then...

That said, I'm pretty sure there is no such tests. Definatly not one that is anything resembling definitive.

originally posted by: eluryh22
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Our son is 4 years old.

Sometimes he "consistently insists" he is an Octonaut. Sometimes he "consistently insists" that he is Super Mario.

First of all, in the lifespan of a person 4 years is a blink of the eye so I don't know how "consistently insists" can be a "thing."

Second, a 4 year old, like you said, is incredibly impressionable. If I had the desire, I could question my son and lead him to say that he was born on Jupiter.

Third, while I have seem some 4 year old girls that are sort of "tom boys" and some 4 year old boys that are sort of "feminine," to say that a 4 year old can contemplate sex/gender/whatever is ridiculous (unless the parents are driving that point home all the time rather than focusing on other things like, lets say, I dunno, LEARNING how to read and problem solve and about nature and science). Even then, the 4 year old is only saying what he/she thinks the parents WANT to hear.

Leave the friggen kids alone with this stuff. It's like I often say about racism. I know it will never happen but if you want to end racism in a single generation.... LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE! My son's Pre-K class (as was his nursery school class) was very diverse. A little bit of almost everything in there. Guess what? NONE of the kids cared. The recognize that people look different from them (color of skin, taller kids, shorter kids, skinnier kids, fatter kids, etc) but it was no different than realizing that people have different faces. It's just a way for them to recognize each other. NONE of these 3 year olds (now 4 year olds) are racist in any way whatsoever. It's something that (unfortunately) is going to be taught to them.

Again, leave the friggen kids alone please. If an adolescent approaches a parent and has issues with gender or sexual orientation or whatever, I would hope that the parents are open to the discussion. BUT.... they should not be pushing any of this onto their kids.

Actually migo it's pretty well known fact kids are born "racist" and kinda have to be taught otherwise...

I don't mean KKK extremist racist, but they almost always prefer people who look similar and we all know how mean kids can be once they group up.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

I think perhaps you are mis informed about the actual medical practice for kids who appear to be living with gender identity disorder.

First off, only about 20% of minors who express a preference to switch genders actually go on to transition into their chosen gender once they are old enough.

Secondly, medical intervention is not prescribed until the child is about to enter puberty. Any medical intervention at that point is limited to delaying puberty in order to allow the child to mature to the point that they are capable of understanding the potential risks and consequences of their actions.

Thirdly, medical intervention is limited by law and WHO recommended practices to hormone treatment that can be easily addressed by stopping treatment and allowing the patient to revert to their birth gender. Surgical treatment is not permitted until the patient has become an adult legally. And any medical intervention must be prescribed by a certified specialist and psychologist.

The guidelines dictated by the WHO for when and how to prescribe treatment are fairly stringent, even in the case of fully matured adults. The underlying principal is that gender dsyphoria is a recognized medical and psychiatric condition and treatment is only prescribed when there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the patients life, or quality of life, is in jeopardy if no intervention is made.

Legally, it is not not possible for a child to consent to changing their gender, even without medical intervention, until they reach the age of maturity. And even then in most countries they need to make a declaration which is judged and validated by a judge.

I live in Ireland, where we recently changed the law to allow adults to legally change their gender by making a declaration. Its one of four countries in the world who provide this legal support to transgendered individuals. It is not possible for a minor to legally change their gender if they are under age without approved assessments made by psychiatric professionals and the approval of a court.

Lastly the vista of parents who actively support or encourage their children to change gender is a myth. I know of no such case actually happening.

As with all medical interventions, there are laws that prevent doctors and parents from following any course of action that might endanger a child's physical well being.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

I'm highly doubtful that using hormone blockers throughout puberty would have little to no effect on the end result of the kid.... Puberty is a pretty big biological change and the long term use of almost no pharmaceuticals are "free." For example such as with opiates, you pay by detoxing.

Puberty blockers have been around for a while now. We have a good idea of their side effects.
Puberty blockers

But putting that aside , the parents still (in this scenerio) made this decision on the feelings of a 4 year old, who prob doesn't know the alphabet, let alone the long term consequences of even the swap. Then the kid was reinforced by the parents as the oppisite sex from 4 to 10....

So? Kids go through phases all the time. My cousin was a tomboy as a child. She grew up and is married now. Her brother would play with her barbies (before she became a tomboy that is). He's about to be married this August to a lovely lady. Kids will be kids. If the kid was truly going through a phase, then wearing dresses for a few years isn't going to destroy them as they become an adult.

Ok so how is that different from if the Russian girl (feral child) had begged her parents to live as a dog, before they put her in the kennel?

Wouldn't you have roughly the same level of ingrained mannerisms as a kid raised as trans?

Yes, because a man acting more effeminate than most or a female acting more masculine than most is SUCH a big deal in society versus a person wanting to live in a kennel. /sarc

So a straight kid wearing a dress and living life as a girl, with all the teasing and social pressure that kid would face, will not be detrimental to a "straight" child.

But dressing up as your birth sex and not being the center of attention for every bully in your area, can be incredibly detrimental to a legitimately trans kid?


I'm not talking about nor comparing being trans vs. being a feral child, in the social sense nor in how negative the long term effects would be. I'm using it as an example of how impressionable a child is....

If you watch that video, her movements are unnerving. The poor girls mannerisms and such are so doglike, it would be impossible for someone else to replicate them or pretend to be that way. She also was abused for exactly the same time scale we are discussing. Showing exactly how all in compassing a child's environment can be on their adulthood.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: JoshuaCox

These issues are decided by medical proffessionals who have spent their careers dealing with people with these problems. They do have tests that determine whether these kids are acctually fit for such procedures.

Do you understand the physical differences that can be observed in people who are fit for such procedures? There are plenty. You cannot fool the hormone tests and the brain functionality measures that must be undertaken to determine whether a person is a valid candidate.

The truth is that there are millions of people who feel that they were born with the wrong bits. That makes it a natural phenomenon. This is as old as the written word. Science is just now catching up.

The studies show that there is a much better rate of success when they go through this transition at a young age than if they wait till after puberty.

We thought that about add. Turns out the tests aren't accurate. Hell the NEJM did a report on the amount of drug trials that had been peer reviewed that were flawed, had conflicts of interest, or were completely false when retried. 1/3 of drug trials were false and half had left out important findings.

I definitely would not just trust DR's and pharma to decide the guidelines without serious thought and education by the parents.

For instance in Australia you have to have five drs agree on any permanent changes. It may be the same for hormone blockers.

I have been evolving with this issue talking to advocates and having had a trans boy highschool wrestler student on our highschool team.

I do not think though that the medical profession alone should be guiding the decisions in the US. I think if the parents are baligerant or blocking the children's identity they probably won't do the research in which case something like Australia should be set up.

Most findings show its not just hormone blockers but good useful therapy is also needed. We are such a quick fix society I don't think it's out of question to be cautious of medical trends.

Thay being said if the child has been thoroughly evaluated I don't think hormone blockers before the first stage of puberty is a bad thing.

I don't know where the whole 4 year old thing came from. But that obviously is an age you still want to evaluate and allow the child to have the gender they ide tify with. There is no need for chemical or other procedures other than therapy. There are some early examples of Drs I believe went to far to young but they are not accepted by the medical community as whole.