Transgendered children: should a parent be able to chemically alter a child's sex?

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: amicktd


If this happened to me, I'd tell my kids that when they become an adult I will support them in making whatever decision it is that they want to do to their body. Not that I have anything against transgenders, just have something against making a huge decision that will effect the rest of their lives.

By the time they are an adult, the permanent effects of puberty are done. Now, no matter how much hormones they take, they will have secondary characteristics of the sex they were born with that won't go away. This is one of the primary issues with depression and suicide among transgender adults.

Sooooo, you make them wait until they are an adult, you may not have to worry about the rest of their lives, because they will have already ended their life.

How about this gem though:

However, the use of puberty blockers to treat transgender children is what’s considered an “off label” use of the medication — something that hasn’t been approved by the Food and Drug Administration. And doctors say their biggest concern is about how long children stay on the medication, because there isn’t enough research into the effects of stalling puberty at the age when children normally go through it.

The Endocrine Society’s guidelines suggest starting puberty blockers for transgender children when they hit a stage of development known as Tanner stage 2 — usually around 10 or 11 years old for a girl and 11 or 12 years old for a boy. The same guidelines suggest giving cross sex hormones — estrogen for transgender girls and testosterone for transgender boys — at age 16. However, doctors caution that estrogen and testosterone, the hormones that are blocked by these medications, also play a role in a child’s neurological development and bone growth.

Source

ETA: That was my opinion I shared that you replied to, but there are other things to consider. Yes, what you stated is a risk, but the same can be said about what I sourced. Food for thought I guess.

a reply to: seagull

thanks for the reply, my main concern is long term psychological problems... the idea of the blockers doesn't bother me much.

My wife's best friend from childhood is starting the process to become a man, and she has said when we discussed it that if she had done this much earlier in life she probably would have regretted it, because she had much happiness while being how she was born.

She feels she will be happier now going forward in life but, she has memories she never would have had if she had changed earlier... if that makes sense.

But that's it for my anecdotal evidence... ultimately people must decide for themselves what makes them happy.

But then I am not planning on having kids, only maybe adopting... and then me and the wife are looking at trying to give a home to people that are considered to old to be adoptable... and I am rambling peace...

Children, no matter how "intelligent" they are, have brains that aren't developed enough to judge the impact of their own actions; they also aren't aware enough of the environment to discern which thoughts are their own, among the sea of external stimuli present in modern society.

"Feelings" come and go... try explaining the implications of this thought process over a long enough period of time to allow real world examples to present themselves, which can help the child process everything.

Any parent who seriously considers the trans option after "consistent insistence from a 4-10 year old", probably has little to no control in their child's life and/or involvement in the environment he/she is being raised in.

IMO this is bad parenting - it is a parent's duty to establish a certain amount of control over their child's developing life.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: luthier

www.nbcnews.com...

This (from nbc news, not some insane Christian conspiracy site) says science can't tell a male from female brain scan, let alone trans from non...

You should read the study.

If you follow the link NBC provides you will see it clearly says there are male and female aspects to the brain.
Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.

www.newscientist.com...

This article talks about trans brains.

Very nice!!

But I'm assuming this is cutting edge science. So that means they are still a good decade away from a reliable test, IF their research is found to show significant markers.

However, that ain't today.

Today it is all subjective speculation while trying to interpret the feelings of a five year old....

So there is no test today then huh?

Answer this .

Your child is 3 the sex is male she believes the gender is female. This continues to 4. Than 5. Now she is getting depressed and withdrawn. Then 6. More depressed. 7 even worse 8 starts to talk about suicide.

What do you do? Continue to ignore reality? Does it really matter what can be scie tifically proven or do you just try and understand what your child is going through?

This is what parents of these kids deal with. Some of them realize what's going on early enough to avoid there kids being torchered by other adults and peers and protect them by letting them become what they are.

What would you do personally if from 3-9 no matter what therapy or religious teachings had no effect on the identity and the depression continued to get worse. That is the reality of what parents of trans kids have to deal with.

There are a lot of teens with mental, body, social and emotional problems.

Feelings are not real. They are how we precieve what is real.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: seagull

thanks for the reply, my main concern is long term psychological problems... the idea of the blockers doesn't bother me much.

My wife's best friend from childhood is starting the process to become a man, and she has said when we discussed it that if she had done this much earlier in life she probably would have regretted it, because she had much happiness while being how she was born.

She feels she will be happier now going forward in life but, she has memories she never would have had if she had changed earlier... if that makes sense.

But that's it for my anecdotal evidence... ultimately people must decide for themselves what makes them happy.

But then I am not planning on having kids, only maybe adopting... and then me and the wife are looking at trying to give a home to people that are considered to old to be adoptable... and I am rambling peace...

I am seriously asking here....

If some one holds off ever starting puberty, for years! Then say at 18 revert. Is there literally no side effects for that?!?!



Also why is the the only issue where emotional want, plays ANY factor tward anything???

If you really want to be with a chic, and she doesn't want you. Does emotional damage matter at all? To anyone?

That's just the best example of something people can put LOADS into.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: luthier

www.nbcnews.com...

This (from nbc news, not some insane Christian conspiracy site) says science can't tell a male from female brain scan, let alone trans from non...

You should read the study.

If you follow the link NBC provides you will see it clearly says there are male and female aspects to the brain.
Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.

www.newscientist.com...

This article talks about trans brains.

Very nice!!

But I'm assuming this is cutting edge science. So that means they are still a good decade away from a reliable test, IF their research is found to show significant markers.

However, that ain't today.

Today it is all subjective speculation while trying to interpret the feelings of a five year old....

So there is no test today then huh?

Answer this .

Your child is 3 the sex is male she believes the gender is female. This continues to 4. Than 5. Now she is getting depressed and withdrawn. Then 6. More depressed. 7 even worse 8 starts to talk about suicide.

What do you do? Continue to ignore reality? Does it really matter what can be scie tifically proven or do you just try and understand what your child is going through?

This is what parents of these kids deal with. Some of them realize what's going on early enough to avoid there kids being torchered by other adults and peers and protect them by letting them become what they are.

What would you do personally if from 3-9 no matter what therapy or religious teachings had no effect on the identity and the depression continued to get worse. That is the reality of what parents of trans kids have to deal with.

There are a lot of teens with mental, body, social and emotional problems.

Feelings are not real. They are how we precieve what is real.

Feelings are not real?

They are how we perceive what is real?

No our senses are how we perceive what is real through a mental process of emperical data, instinct, or emotion.

What is real is not possible of knowing. We constitute our own reality. If society agrees it's OK to wear feathers by consensus that is reality

You didn't answer my question though. What would you do?

Are you considering that there are studies that show these "feelings" last throoghout the child's life if they are persistent throughout childhood. Some kids revert back to their birth sex. They aren't the ones spending years ide tidying as the opposite sex.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: seagull

thanks for the reply, my main concern is long term psychological problems... the idea of the blockers doesn't bother me much.

My wife's best friend from childhood is starting the process to become a man, and she has said when we discussed it that if she had done this much earlier in life she probably would have regretted it, because she had much happiness while being how she was born.

She feels she will be happier now going forward in life but, she has memories she never would have had if she had changed earlier... if that makes sense.

But that's it for my anecdotal evidence... ultimately people must decide for themselves what makes them happy.

But then I am not planning on having kids, only maybe adopting... and then me and the wife are looking at trying to give a home to people that are considered to old to be adoptable... and I am rambling peace...

I am seriously asking here....

If some one holds off ever starting puberty, for years! Then say at 18 revert. Is there literally no side effects for that?!?!



Also why is the the only issue where emotional want, plays ANY factor tward anything???

If you really want to be with a chic, and she doesn't want you. Does emotional damage matter at all? To anyone?

That's just the best example of something people can put LOADS into.

Does wanting a chick and wanting to be one really have the same meaning? One requires another person's consent. The other is your own person.

One is a wanting the other is a core personal belief.

a reply to: prepared4truth

Jazz was really lucky. She had parents who loved her enough to help her.







That was when Jazz was 11 and just getting ready to go on puberty blockers. Here is Jazz at 15, getting ready for High School.



I'd say she was doing pretty well, thanks to her parents.

a reply to: Irishhaf

As for long term studies on the psychological effects? I don't know, and won't claim to. There are others herein who are much more versed in the topic than I am.

There will be those who will regret undergoing the change. That stands to reason. Humans are a fickle bunch at the best of times.

She feels she will be happier now going forward in life but, she has memories she never would have had if she had changed earlier... if that makes sense.

It actually does, though I'm not sure how to express that understanding... I suppose it's about life changes. She's reached the point where it works for her.

That's why, this shouldn't be done without lots of thought beforehand. What's that old saying? Act in haste, repent at leisure.

This change isn't going to be for everyone. But it should be an option, and no ones business but those involved in the process.

Oh noes they get depression, welcome to the world of every single child that with a differentiating characteristic lives in. It is not just trans children that have body issues.

Growing up I was always 6-12 inches taller than everyone, and hated it. No one gave a crude about that, it did not stop everyone from bulling the gentle giant. So bouts of suicide attempts and massive depression over the years has led to a wonderful life where I cannot stand to look at myself and hope every day is one I do not wake up for.

So, please tell my why I should care at all about these children. The world is a cruel place and the sooner they learn that the sooner they can exist until their time ends.

Welcome to the world that will chew you up and spit you out and not care one way or the other.

originally posted by: Azdraik
Oh noes they get depression, welcome to the world of every single child that with a differentiating characteristic lives in. It is not just trans children that have body issues.

Growing up I was always 6-12 inches taller than everyone, and hated it. No one gave a crude about that, it did not stop everyone from bulling the gentle giant. So bouts of suicide attempts and massive depression over the years has led to a wonderful life where I cannot stand to look at myself and hope every day is one I do not wake up for.

So, please tell my why I should care at all about these children. The world is a cruel place and the sooner they learn that the sooner they can exist until their time ends.

Welcome to the world that will chew you up and spit you out and not care one way or the other.

Really. That makes for good parenting. Hey bud there is a cure for your depression but I am gonna let you tough it out to make sure you are as miserable as I am.

a reply to: luthier

Lol the fact you think there is a cure for their depression is funny. Because no matter what they do with current technology they will never... ever be the opposite gender. Sure some will be placated with that but others will not be. How can a FTM ever know what it is like to be a father or, a MTF knowing she created life. That is a cannot, at this time, be changed.

Let me know the a MTF has his own genetic functioning ovaries or a FTM has working sperm producing testicles. Until then anything that is done is just dressing on the windows.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: seagull

thanks for the reply, my main concern is long term psychological problems... the idea of the blockers doesn't bother me much.

My wife's best friend from childhood is starting the process to become a man, and she has said when we discussed it that if she had done this much earlier in life she probably would have regretted it, because she had much happiness while being how she was born.

She feels she will be happier now going forward in life but, she has memories she never would have had if she had changed earlier... if that makes sense.

But that's it for my anecdotal evidence... ultimately people must decide for themselves what makes them happy.

But then I am not planning on having kids, only maybe adopting... and then me and the wife are looking at trying to give a home to people that are considered to old to be adoptable... and I am rambling peace...

I am seriously asking here....

If some one holds off ever starting puberty, for years! Then say at 18 revert. Is there literally no side effects for that?!?!



Also why is the the only issue where emotional want, plays ANY factor tward anything???

If you really want to be with a chic, and she doesn't want you. Does emotional damage matter at all? To anyone?

That's just the best example of something people can put LOADS into.

Does wanting a chick and wanting to be one really have the same meaning? One requires another person's consent. The other is your own person.

One is a wanting the other is a core personal belief.

I used that example because it is one people will commit suicide , be destraught for years exc.

I was just looking for an example of something that can have an incredible emotional impact. I'm not relating it to puppy love or a crush, more "true love" or a crazy stalker.

originally posted by: Azdraik
a reply to: luthier

Lol the fact you think there is a cure for their depression is funny. Because no matter what they do with current technology they will never... ever be the opposite gender. Sure some will be placated with that but others will not be. How can a FTM ever know what it is like to be a father or, a MTF knowing she created life. That is a cannot, at this time, be changed.

Let me know the a MTF has his own genetic functioning ovaries or a FTM has working sperm producing testicles. Until then anything that is done is just dressing on the windows.

So women and men who have issues with their sex organs are not men or women either? Good to know.

Trans parents would adopt just like birth sex couples without working sex organs.

a reply to: luthier

Pretty sure there are studies which show people with sexual defects, feel less than whole. In fact recently there was work done to try to use artificial vaginal implants for women born without a vagina and the subject stated "Truly I feel very fortunate because I have a normal life, completely normal". There has also been plenty of research showing men with sexual disorders like ED feel like less of a man. Hence the research in developing drugs and artificial organs.

originally posted by: Azdraik
a reply to: luthier

Pretty sure there are studies which show people with sexual defects, feel less than whole. In fact recently there was work done to try to use artificial vaginal implants for women born without a vagina and the subject stated "Truly I feel very fortunate because I have a normal life, completely normal". There has also been plenty of research showing men with sexual disorders like ED feel like less of a man. Hence the research in developing drugs and artificial organs.

I think you should spend more times with your thoughts. I think you are contradicting yourself some. If a kid can grow up to be a happy trans adult what is wrong with that?

Are you just afraid of it?

a reply to: luthier

You asked if I see people with sexual disabilities as less than a man/woman and my response is there has been research to show that individuals with those disabilities believe they are less due to them.

I am all for any body modifications that an adult wants to make. I do not think we should be frankensteining children. I and thousands other got to deal with depressing childhoods and so they can tough it out as well and once they are an adult do whatever they want to do to themselves.

And what is to be afraid of. If I had it my way I would be both sexes, but that is not feasible at this time and is another topic.

originally posted by: Azdraik
a reply to: luthier

You asked if I see people with sexual disabilities as less than a man/woman and my response is there has been research to show that individuals with those disabilities believe they are less due to them.

I am all for any body modifications that an adult wants to make. I do not think we should be frankensteining children. I and thousands other got to deal with depressing childhoods and so they can tough it out as well and once they are an adult do whatever they want to do to themselves.

And what is to be afraid of. If I had it my way I would be both sexes, but that is not feasible at this time and is another topic.

Your projecting your own situation on everybody as if that is the only state of being.

I am a judo and wrestling coach for kids. I have been more than a decade. I have had trans children on my team. I teach kids how to deal with adversity and how to persevere. If you know anything about folk, freestyle, and Greco wrestling you know its a tough sport.

I don't baby kids or think they shouldn't have to deal with the real world.

This is not a situation like that. These kids have real torment that is far beyound your normal teenager stuff. This is core self and societal rejection. It's getting better.

Yeah I think we should be very careful with drugs and kids. I think the process should have redundant safeguards. More than one Dr. Diagnosis. But it should be available.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Azdraik
a reply to: luthier

Pretty sure there are studies which show people with sexual defects, feel less than whole. In fact recently there was work done to try to use artificial vaginal implants for women born without a vagina and the subject stated "Truly I feel very fortunate because I have a normal life, completely normal". There has also been plenty of research showing men with sexual disorders like ED feel like less of a man. Hence the research in developing drugs and artificial organs.

I think you should spend more times with your thoughts. I think you are contradicting yourself some. If a kid can grow up to be a happy trans adult what is wrong with that?

Are you just afraid of it?

No one here cares what adults do.

The question is, should we be making these medical and social changes to CHILDREN, without some form of definitive, confirmed diagnosis. It is all based on testimonials....


Vaguely similar to religion, testimonials are not a measurable thing. They don't count as proof of anything....and we arnt talking about adult testimonials...we are talking about the testimonial of 4 year olds!!!


People should wait till 17ish to start actual hormon theropy, and wait to swap names and clothes until at least 12 or 13. If the trans person doesn't end up quite as feminine as they might have if puberty had been blocked. That's life...

There are women born as women who look like men....mustaches, back hair, the build of a gorilla. There is no massive social justice effort for gorilla shaped, back haired, mustached women... No one is fighting to get them liposuction and face lift...

Same thing with really ugly dudes and both sexes can have major self esteem issues from it , up to suicidal thoughts.

a reply to: luthier

But how can you verify the diagnosis.

You don't need proof to NOT get prescriptions/surgery.

You need proof TO have a medical procedure.

Especially if doing it to a kid.