Transgendered children: should a parent be able to chemically alter a child's sex?

originally posted by: redshoes
a reply to: JoshuaCox

I think perhaps you are mis informed about the actual medical practice for kids who appear to be living with gender identity disorder.

First off, only about 20% of minors who express a preference to switch genders actually go on to transition into their chosen gender once they are old enough.

Secondly, medical intervention is not prescribed until the child is about to enter puberty. Any medical intervention at that point is limited to delaying puberty in order to allow the child to mature to the point that they are capable of understanding the potential risks and consequences of their actions.

Thirdly, medical intervention is limited by law and WHO recommended practices to hormone treatment that can be easily addressed by stopping treatment and allowing the patient to revert to their birth gender. Surgical treatment is not permitted until the patient has become an adult legally. And any medical intervention must be prescribed by a certified specialist and psychologist.

The guidelines dictated by the WHO for when and how to prescribe treatment are fairly stringent, even in the case of fully matured adults. The underlying principal is that gender dsyphoria is a recognized medical and psychiatric condition and treatment is only prescribed when there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the patients life, or quality of life, is in jeopardy if no intervention is made.

Legally, it is not not possible for a child to consent to changing their gender, even without medical intervention, until they reach the age of maturity. And even then in most countries they need to make a declaration which is judged and validated by a judge.

I live in Ireland, where we recently changed the law to allow adults to legally change their gender by making a declaration. Its one of four countries in the world who provide this legal support to transgendered individuals. It is not possible for a minor to legally change their gender if they are under age without approved assessments made by psychiatric professionals and the approval of a court.

Lastly the vista of parents who actively support or encourage their children to change gender is a myth. I know of no such case actually happening.

As with all medical interventions, there are laws that prevent doctors and parents from following any course of action that might endanger a child's physical well being.

Then you have never watched pageant moms... Sure it's not gender related, but I think the mentality of those mothers could easily transfer.

You have people who kidnap, rape , murder, exc exc, exc their own children, yet the thought that some crazy parent could influence such a thing is impossible??

Parents push their kids to be all kinda stuff constantly, there are 7 billion of us.

Also I have seen many videos of 5 to 10 year olds who's parents have swapped them already. They are almost used as "awe look how sweet he looks" advertisements.

You might be %100 right about the ability for your body to undo hormone therapy, I am not knowledgeable about that, but it seems hard to believe, since puberty is so important to development, and pharm stuff rarely doesnt come with a long list of negatives.

No medical intervention is done to any four year old. The OP is talking out his rear. The only discussion about four year olds involved allowing them to dress according to the gender they identify with and perhaps changing their name. This usually happens after consultations with a mental healthcare professional who recommends it after the child has shown serious signs of distress and depression. In every case I have read about, the child's depression symptoms virtually disappear when they are able to live as the gender they identify with.

No good parent would just ignore their four year old if the child is telling them they want to "go back to heaven" because they are too unhappy to live anymore.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: redshoes
a reply to: JoshuaCox

I think perhaps you are mis informed about the actual medical practice for kids who appear to be living with gender identity disorder.

First off, only about 20% of minors who express a preference to switch genders actually go on to transition into their chosen gender once they are old enough.

Secondly, medical intervention is not prescribed until the child is about to enter puberty. Any medical intervention at that point is limited to delaying puberty in order to allow the child to mature to the point that they are capable of understanding the potential risks and consequences of their actions.

Thirdly, medical intervention is limited by law and WHO recommended practices to hormone treatment that can be easily addressed by stopping treatment and allowing the patient to revert to their birth gender. Surgical treatment is not permitted until the patient has become an adult legally. And any medical intervention must be prescribed by a certified specialist and psychologist.

The guidelines dictated by the WHO for when and how to prescribe treatment are fairly stringent, even in the case of fully matured adults. The underlying principal is that gender dsyphoria is a recognized medical and psychiatric condition and treatment is only prescribed when there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the patients life, or quality of life, is in jeopardy if no intervention is made.

Legally, it is not not possible for a child to consent to changing their gender, even without medical intervention, until they reach the age of maturity. And even then in most countries they need to make a declaration which is judged and validated by a judge.

I live in Ireland, where we recently changed the law to allow adults to legally change their gender by making a declaration. Its one of four countries in the world who provide this legal support to transgendered individuals. It is not possible for a minor to legally change their gender if they are under age without approved assessments made by psychiatric professionals and the approval of a court.

Lastly the vista of parents who actively support or encourage their children to change gender is a myth. I know of no such case actually happening.

As with all medical interventions, there are laws that prevent doctors and parents from following any course of action that might endanger a child's physical well being.

Then you have never watched pageant moms... Sure it's not gender related, but I think the mentality of those mothers could easily transfer.

You have people who kidnap, rape , murder, exc exc, exc their own children, yet the thought that some crazy parent could influence such a thing is impossible??

Parents push their kids to be all kinda stuff constantly, there are 7 billion of us.

Also I have seen many videos of 5 to 10 year olds who's parents have swapped them already. They are almost used as "awe look how sweet he looks" advertisements.

You might be %100 right about the ability for your body to undo hormone therapy, I am not knowledgeable about that, but it seems hard to believe, since puberty is so important to development, and pharm stuff rarely doesnt come with a long list of negatives.

You can safeguard issues like your concerns but you will never eliminate them. Thay can't be a reason to deny good parents and drs from helping their kids. I don't believe that is a good arguement. It's like saying we shouldn't have cars because people drive under the influence.

The switches parents are doing for the most part of these young children you describe are done with the aid of therapists and non paermanent changes. The few that do this as a pet project are always going to happen in any realm of medicine. Parents who think there kids are allergic to everything (with no medical assement), pagentry as you say, theater dance math anything parents do the wrong thing sometimes. That is not a reason not to help the kids that need help.

I agree though there should be a system that has redundant safeguards in the medical system to help alleviate misdiagnosis and to get parents involved and educated.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: JoshuaCox

These issues are decided by medical proffessionals who have spent their careers dealing with people with these problems. They do have tests that determine whether these kids are acctually fit for such procedures.

Do you understand the physical differences that can be observed in people who are fit for such procedures? There are plenty. You cannot fool the hormone tests and the brain functionality measures that must be undertaken to determine whether a person is a valid candidate.

The truth is that there are millions of people who feel that they were born with the wrong bits. That makes it a natural phenomenon. This is as old as the written word. Science is just now catching up.

The studies show that there is a much better rate of success when they go through this transition at a young age than if they wait till after puberty.

We thought that about add. Turns out the tests aren't accurate. Hell the NEJM did a report on the amount of drug trials that had been peer reviewed that were flawed, had conflicts of interest, or were completely false when retried. 1/3 of drug trials were false and half had left out important findings.

I definitely would not just trust DR's and pharma to decide the guidelines without serious thought and education by the parents.

For instance in Australia you have to have five drs agree on any permanent changes. It may be the same for hormone blockers.

I have been evolving with this issue talking to advocates and having had a trans boy highschool wrestler student on our highschool team.

I do not think though that the medical profession alone should be guiding the decisions in the US. I think if the parents are baligerant or blocking the children's identity they probably won't do the research in which case something like Australia should be set up.

Most findings show its not just hormone blockers but good useful therapy is also needed. We are such a quick fix society I don't think it's out of question to be cautious of medical trends.

Thay being said if the child has been thoroughly evaluated I don't think hormone blockers before the first stage of puberty is a bad thing.

I don't know where the whole 4 year old thing came from. But that obviously is an age you still want to evaluate and allow the child to have the gender they ide tify with. There is no need for chemical or other procedures other than therapy. There are some early examples of Drs I believe went to far to young but they are not accepted by the medical community as whole.

I don't think there is any psyc evaluation you can take at 9 or 10 that can tell you how you will want to live your life at 20 or 30.

And as far as I know, that is literally the only measuring stick.

If there were DNA tests or brain scans that confirmed it, I'm all in.

I don't like making life altering changes to grade school children by using 100% subjective means....

originally posted by: kaylaluv
No medical intervention is done to any four year old. The OP is talking out his rear. The only discussion about four year olds involved allowing them to dress according to the gender they identify with and perhaps changing their name. This usually happens after consultations with a mental healthcare professional who recommends it after the child has shown serious signs of distress and depression. In every case I have read about, the child's depression symptoms virtually disappear when they are able to live as the gender they identify with.

No good parent would just ignore their four year old if the child is telling them they want to "go back to heaven" because they are too unhappy to live anymore.

I never said medical changes were done to 4 year olds....

I said a 4 year olds opinion is used to "swap" them, then at 9ish they begin hormone therapy to block puberty...

That's what "swap" means...changing their name and swapping dress. You must have only skimmed the posts. Because that has been mentioned repeatedly...

Then he'll what should you do when your child "wants to go back I heaven, because they can't be a ninja turtle? "

Today's top story:

4 year olds have almost no understanding of adult issues, and say crazy stuff!

Followed by:

Water, found to be wet!

a reply to: JoshuaCox

They don't begin hormone treatments at 9ish either.

Please. Get your facts straight.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

I've heard about/seen on documentaries/read about some of these "studies" on both sides (kids are racist vs kids are not). I'm definitely not willing to say "it's a pretty well known fact" because for me, since the tie-breaker for me is what I see and experience (along with all the other parents that I've discussed this with).

"Once they grow up" means that they are already being taught to hate on certain things by various combinations of media and what they may hear their parents/aunts/uncles/cousins saying.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: JoshuaCox

These issues are decided by medical proffessionals who have spent their careers dealing with people with these problems. They do have tests that determine whether these kids are acctually fit for such procedures.

Do you understand the physical differences that can be observed in people who are fit for such procedures? There are plenty. You cannot fool the hormone tests and the brain functionality measures that must be undertaken to determine whether a person is a valid candidate.

The truth is that there are millions of people who feel that they were born with the wrong bits. That makes it a natural phenomenon. This is as old as the written word. Science is just now catching up.

The studies show that there is a much better rate of success when they go through this transition at a young age than if they wait till after puberty.

We thought that about add. Turns out the tests aren't accurate. Hell the NEJM did a report on the amount of drug trials that had been peer reviewed that were flawed, had conflicts of interest, or were completely false when retried. 1/3 of drug trials were false and half had left out important findings.

I definitely would not just trust DR's and pharma to decide the guidelines without serious thought and education by the parents.

For instance in Australia you have to have five drs agree on any permanent changes. It may be the same for hormone blockers.

I have been evolving with this issue talking to advocates and having had a trans boy highschool wrestler student on our highschool team.

I do not think though that the medical profession alone should be guiding the decisions in the US. I think if the parents are baligerant or blocking the children's identity they probably won't do the research in which case something like Australia should be set up.

Most findings show its not just hormone blockers but good useful therapy is also needed. We are such a quick fix society I don't think it's out of question to be cautious of medical trends.

Thay being said if the child has been thoroughly evaluated I don't think hormone blockers before the first stage of puberty is a bad thing.

I don't know where the whole 4 year old thing came from. But that obviously is an age you still want to evaluate and allow the child to have the gender they ide tify with. There is no need for chemical or other procedures other than therapy. There are some early examples of Drs I believe went to far to young but they are not accepted by the medical community as whole.

I don't think there is any psyc evaluation you can take at 9 or 10 that can tell you how you will want to live your life at 20 or 30.

And as far as I know, that is literally the only measuring stick.

If there were DNA tests or brain scans that confirmed it, I'm all in.

I don't like making life altering changes to grade school children by using 100% subjective means....

There are no grade school children that are permanently changed. Not legally. There have been a few cases of quack drs allowing this.

The earliest time cross hormones are introduced is 13-14.

If you knew any trans kids I guarantee you would change your mind. They are absolutely torchered by being trapped in their body. It's undeniable.

I don't think it should be taken lightly or just done for convienance to have a solution to the torment but it's very real.

If they don't make it to their 20's and 30's it doesn't much matter. The suicide rates are pretty bad for kids not allowed to transition.

There are some new studies on brain activity and trangenger youth. For a while the studies were post mortem but they have come up with new studies using the subtle differences of brain responses to sound and sight between men and women. They are used because they can't be fabricated by the brains cognition they are environmental reflexes.

They found the trans children showed brain activity of the gender they identified with.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

I guess since we're busy turning so many children into lifelong speed addicts with ADD meds, why not give children drugs which will drastically alter their mental and physical selves for the rest of their lives, before they're even considered mature enough to decide whether to smoke, drink, drive a car, etc.?

I'm not opposed to people trans-gendering at all, but I am opposed to people chemically altering the basis of a child's bodily functions. I doubt they're even aware of the dangers of hormone alterations, such as increased estrogen leading to increased cancer rates, etc. No turning back kids - you can go off the meds, even try to reverse the effects, but there will have been permanent changes before you're even 18 years old - not to mention the dangers of messing with the body's chemistry so drastically.

I think people need to face the fact that we don't have an "Ideal Life" pill - and certainly not one without consequences. It seems to me that proponents of this aren't willing to fully consider the consequences, and aren't willing to accept that some children (such as one with gender identity issues), might just have to learn to cope with their differences, and should wait until at least 18 before making MAJOR and PERMANENT medical decisions about altering their bodies (whether chemically or surgically.)

I think it is wrong. I think it is unethical.

If my 3 year old daughter began telling me she was a boy I would laugh it off and tell her to continue playing, just like I did when she told me she was a dinosaur 2 weeks ago.

All this new-age nonsense is growing arms and legs, to the point that some kids at school now have a list of genders to choose from when it used to be 'boy' or 'girl', remember those?

Sorry if I just offended anyone. Given the world we live in I probably did.

4 year old's (as referred to in the op) are smart, they really are, but in essence they don't have a bloody clue what they want to be or do when they grow older.

originally posted by: angryhulk
I think it is wrong. I think it is unethical.

If my 3 year old daughter began telling me she was a boy I would laugh it off and tell her to continue playing, just like I did when she told me she was a dinosaur 2 weeks ago.

All this new-age nonsense is growing arms and legs, to the point that some kids at school now have a list of genders to choose from when it used to be 'boy' or 'girl', remember those?

Sorry if I just offended anyone. Given the world we live in I probably did.

4 year old's (as referred to in the op) are smart, they really are, but in essence they don't have a bloody clue what they want to be or do when they grow older.

I don't think you really have understanding of the situation.

I live in SC so all the NC bathroom stuff is pretty close to home. There was a marine dad and his wife with a trans 6 year old who had to come to terms with his kids is not just pretending to be a dinosaur as you say. This is a real issue. The suicide rates of trans kids is not acceptable.

originally posted by: dogstar23
a reply to: JoshuaCox


It seems to me that proponents of this aren't willing to fully consider the consequences, and aren't willing to accept that some children (such as one with gender identity issues), might just have to learn to cope with their differences, and should wait until at least 18 before making MAJOR and PERMANENT medical decisions about altering their bodies (whether chemically or surgically.)

Transgender people who wait until after puberty to start make those changes have much higher rates of depression and suicide then those who started the transition before puberty. Fact.

a reply to: angryhulk

What if your 3 year old told you she didn't want to be here anymore? What if she stopped playing, stopped eating, stopped sleeping? What if she became withdrawn and listless? Would you just laugh it off?

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: redshoes
a reply to: JoshuaCox

I think perhaps you are mis informed about the actual medical practice for kids who appear to be living with gender identity disorder.

First off, only about 20% of minors who express a preference to switch genders actually go on to transition into their chosen gender once they are old enough.

Secondly, medical intervention is not prescribed until the child is about to enter puberty. Any medical intervention at that point is limited to delaying puberty in order to allow the child to mature to the point that they are capable of understanding the potential risks and consequences of their actions.

Thirdly, medical intervention is limited by law and WHO recommended practices to hormone treatment that can be easily addressed by stopping treatment and allowing the patient to revert to their birth gender. Surgical treatment is not permitted until the patient has become an adult legally. And any medical intervention must be prescribed by a certified specialist and psychologist.

The guidelines dictated by the WHO for when and how to prescribe treatment are fairly stringent, even in the case of fully matured adults. The underlying principal is that gender dsyphoria is a recognized medical and psychiatric condition and treatment is only prescribed when there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the patients life, or quality of life, is in jeopardy if no intervention is made.

Legally, it is not not possible for a child to consent to changing their gender, even without medical intervention, until they reach the age of maturity. And even then in most countries they need to make a declaration which is judged and validated by a judge.

I live in Ireland, where we recently changed the law to allow adults to legally change their gender by making a declaration. Its one of four countries in the world who provide this legal support to transgendered individuals. It is not possible for a minor to legally change their gender if they are under age without approved assessments made by psychiatric professionals and the approval of a court.

Lastly the vista of parents who actively support or encourage their children to change gender is a myth. I know of no such case actually happening.

As with all medical interventions, there are laws that prevent doctors and parents from following any course of action that might endanger a child's physical well being.

Then you have never watched pageant moms... Sure it's not gender related, but I think the mentality of those mothers could easily transfer.

You have people who kidnap, rape , murder, exc exc, exc their own children, yet the thought that some crazy parent could influence such a thing is impossible??

Parents push their kids to be all kinda stuff constantly, there are 7 billion of us.

Also I have seen many videos of 5 to 10 year olds who's parents have swapped them already. They are almost used as "awe look how sweet he looks" advertisements.

You might be %100 right about the ability for your body to undo hormone therapy, I am not knowledgeable about that, but it seems hard to believe, since puberty is so important to development, and pharm stuff rarely doesnt come with a long list of negatives.

You can safeguard issues like your concerns but you will never eliminate them. Thay can't be a reason to deny good parents and drs from helping their kids. I don't believe that is a good arguement. It's like saying we shouldn't have cars because people drive under the influence.

The switches parents are doing for the most part of these young children you describe are done with the aid of therapists and non paermanent changes. The few that do this as a pet project are always going to happen in any realm of medicine. Parents who think there kids are allergic to everything (with no medical assement), pagentry as you say, theater dance math anything parents do the wrong thing sometimes. That is not a reason not to help the kids that need help.

I agree though there should be a system that has redundant safeguards in the medical system to help alleviate misdiagnosis and to get parents involved and educated.

I think the crux of the argument isn't the potential for bad parents, Drs or misdiagnosis. It is allowing a 4 year old to make this kind of call. I think any parent would agree that at 4, their kid shouldn't have been making decisions that will effect them until that are at least 18.

There is nothing measurable about this diagnosis..it's based on no more then a questionnaire and a few psyc evaluations...psyc evaluations of a 4 year old....at least where swapping is concerned.. And the hormone decisions are made on a questionnaire and the psyc evaluation of an 8 year old!!!!


For people to make these kind of decisions for a child, I want some form of definitive test. Maybe they find the gene that controls it, and a DNA test would work. Maybe they find a brain scan that can diagnosis it.

If gender identity and sexual orientation is genetic/biological (and I think it is) we will find a test one day.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: angryhulk
I think it is wrong. I think it is unethical.

If my 3 year old daughter began telling me she was a boy I would laugh it off and tell her to continue playing, just like I did when she told me she was a dinosaur 2 weeks ago.

All this new-age nonsense is growing arms and legs, to the point that some kids at school now have a list of genders to choose from when it used to be 'boy' or 'girl', remember those?

Sorry if I just offended anyone. Given the world we live in I probably did.

4 year old's (as referred to in the op) are smart, they really are, but in essence they don't have a bloody clue what they want to be or do when they grow older.

I don't think you really have understanding of the situation.

I live in SC so all the NC bathroom stuff is pretty close to home. There was a marine dad and his wife with a trans 6 year old who had to come to terms with his kids is not just pretending to be a dinosaur as you say. This is a real issue. The suicide rates of trans kids is not acceptable.

Well, I look at it all very differently and will continue to do so. So in the spirit of not offending anyone I will depart the conversation.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: dogstar23
a reply to: JoshuaCox


It seems to me that proponents of this aren't willing to fully consider the consequences, and aren't willing to accept that some children (such as one with gender identity issues), might just have to learn to cope with their differences, and should wait until at least 18 before making MAJOR and PERMANENT medical decisions about altering their bodies (whether chemically or surgically.)

Transgender people who wait until after puberty to start make those changes have much higher rates of depression and suicide then those who started the transition before puberty. Fact.

[/quote
That is what made me change my opinion of the issue. Sometimes you have great thoughts and ideas that don't translate into reality. I used to think 18 was the age to do it.

I don't feel comfortable with cross hormone therapy at 13-14 I think hormone blockers are better but I am learning I don't really know.

I do think more studies have to be done on any dangers to hormone blockers and brain development at least for the sake of explaining all the side effects for the most informed choices.

Man such a tough issue. I do think you should be cautious of the medical industrial complex and be an informed parent to make sure your getting good advice.

originally posted by: angryhulk
If my 3 year old daughter began telling me she was a boy I would laugh it off and tell her to continue playing, just like I did when she told me she was a dinosaur 2 weeks ago.

What if she was saying she was a boy at three, and EVERY DAY thereafter? EVERY time you said her name, she would scream, "THAT'S NOT MY NAME! THAT'S A GIRL'S NAME!" What if she cried every day and went into a depression because you make her wear "girl clothes" and her teachers put her with the girls' for gym? What if she went into a funk and wouldn't come out of her room? What if she stopped eating?

We're not talking about a passing mention of being the other gender...

This just shows the ignorance that most people have about it. I KNOW the OP has barely scratched the surface of self-education on this topic, if that. LOTS of information is available about real cases, but I guess it's just too much to ask that people educate themselves about something before starting an ignorance-embracing thread like this...

I notice the OP didn't answer my post... Why bother with facts when you can IGNORE them. IGNORING the facts is the definition of IGNORANCE.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: redshoes
a reply to: JoshuaCox

I think perhaps you are mis informed about the actual medical practice for kids who appear to be living with gender identity disorder.

First off, only about 20% of minors who express a preference to switch genders actually go on to transition into their chosen gender once they are old enough.

Secondly, medical intervention is not prescribed until the child is about to enter puberty. Any medical intervention at that point is limited to delaying puberty in order to allow the child to mature to the point that they are capable of understanding the potential risks and consequences of their actions.

Thirdly, medical intervention is limited by law and WHO recommended practices to hormone treatment that can be easily addressed by stopping treatment and allowing the patient to revert to their birth gender. Surgical treatment is not permitted until the patient has become an adult legally. And any medical intervention must be prescribed by a certified specialist and psychologist.

The guidelines dictated by the WHO for when and how to prescribe treatment are fairly stringent, even in the case of fully matured adults. The underlying principal is that gender dsyphoria is a recognized medical and psychiatric condition and treatment is only prescribed when there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the patients life, or quality of life, is in jeopardy if no intervention is made.

Legally, it is not not possible for a child to consent to changing their gender, even without medical intervention, until they reach the age of maturity. And even then in most countries they need to make a declaration which is judged and validated by a judge.

I live in Ireland, where we recently changed the law to allow adults to legally change their gender by making a declaration. Its one of four countries in the world who provide this legal support to transgendered individuals. It is not possible for a minor to legally change their gender if they are under age without approved assessments made by psychiatric professionals and the approval of a court.

Lastly the vista of parents who actively support or encourage their children to change gender is a myth. I know of no such case actually happening.

As with all medical interventions, there are laws that prevent doctors and parents from following any course of action that might endanger a child's physical well being.

Then you have never watched pageant moms... Sure it's not gender related, but I think the mentality of those mothers could easily transfer.

You have people who kidnap, rape , murder, exc exc, exc their own children, yet the thought that some crazy parent could influence such a thing is impossible??

Parents push their kids to be all kinda stuff constantly, there are 7 billion of us.

Also I have seen many videos of 5 to 10 year olds who's parents have swapped them already. They are almost used as "awe look how sweet he looks" advertisements.

You might be %100 right about the ability for your body to undo hormone therapy, I am not knowledgeable about that, but it seems hard to believe, since puberty is so important to development, and pharm stuff rarely doesnt come with a long list of negatives.

You can safeguard issues like your concerns but you will never eliminate them. Thay can't be a reason to deny good parents and drs from helping their kids. I don't believe that is a good arguement. It's like saying we shouldn't have cars because people drive under the influence.

The switches parents are doing for the most part of these young children you describe are done with the aid of therapists and non paermanent changes. The few that do this as a pet project are always going to happen in any realm of medicine. Parents who think there kids are allergic to everything (with no medical assement), pagentry as you say, theater dance math anything parents do the wrong thing sometimes. That is not a reason not to help the kids that need help.

I agree though there should be a system that has redundant safeguards in the medical system to help alleviate misdiagnosis and to get parents involved and educated.

I think the crux of the argument isn't the potential for bad parents, Drs or misdiagnosis. It is allowing a 4 year old to make this kind of call. I think any parent would agree that at 4, their kid shouldn't have been making decisions that will effect them until that are at least 18.

There is nothing measurable about this diagnosis..it's based on no more then a questionnaire and a few psyc evaluations...psyc evaluations of a 4 year old....at least where swapping is concerned.. And the hormone decisions are made on a questionnaire and the psyc evaluation of an 8 year old!!!!


For people to make these kind of decisions for a child, I want some form of definitive test. Maybe they find the gene that controls it, and a DNA test would work. Maybe they find a brain scan that can diagnosis it.

If gender identity and sexual orientation is genetic/biological (and I think it is) we will find a test one day.

It's not a questionnaire. It's evaluation by psychologists and medical drs.

No 4 year olds are doing permanent changes. This article is a hoax.

The absolute earliest time hormones are given is 13.

Are you making any of your analysis based on suicide rates?

originally posted by: angryhulk
So in the spirit of not offending anyone I will depart the conversation.

Disagreement is not offense. You just can't take being disagreed with and presented with facts. Go ahead. Run away from the facts and stick firmly in your ignorance...

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: redshoes
a reply to: JoshuaCox

I think perhaps you are mis informed about the actual medical practice for kids who appear to be living with gender identity disorder.

First off, only about 20% of minors who express a preference to switch genders actually go on to transition into their chosen gender once they are old enough.

Secondly, medical intervention is not prescribed until the child is about to enter puberty. Any medical intervention at that point is limited to delaying puberty in order to allow the child to mature to the point that they are capable of understanding the potential risks and consequences of their actions.

Thirdly, medical intervention is limited by law and WHO recommended practices to hormone treatment that can be easily addressed by stopping treatment and allowing the patient to revert to their birth gender. Surgical treatment is not permitted until the patient has become an adult legally. And any medical intervention must be prescribed by a certified specialist and psychologist.

The guidelines dictated by the WHO for when and how to prescribe treatment are fairly stringent, even in the case of fully matured adults. The underlying principal is that gender dsyphoria is a recognized medical and psychiatric condition and treatment is only prescribed when there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the patients life, or quality of life, is in jeopardy if no intervention is made.

Legally, it is not not possible for a child to consent to changing their gender, even without medical intervention, until they reach the age of maturity. And even then in most countries they need to make a declaration which is judged and validated by a judge.

I live in Ireland, where we recently changed the law to allow adults to legally change their gender by making a declaration. Its one of four countries in the world who provide this legal support to transgendered individuals. It is not possible for a minor to legally change their gender if they are under age without approved assessments made by psychiatric professionals and the approval of a court.

Lastly the vista of parents who actively support or encourage their children to change gender is a myth. I know of no such case actually happening.

As with all medical interventions, there are laws that prevent doctors and parents from following any course of action that might endanger a child's physical well being.

Then you have never watched pageant moms... Sure it's not gender related, but I think the mentality of those mothers could easily transfer.

You have people who kidnap, rape , murder, exc exc, exc their own children, yet the thought that some crazy parent could influence such a thing is impossible??

Parents push their kids to be all kinda stuff constantly, there are 7 billion of us.

Also I have seen many videos of 5 to 10 year olds who's parents have swapped them already. They are almost used as "awe look how sweet he looks" advertisements.

You might be %100 right about the ability for your body to undo hormone therapy, I am not knowledgeable about that, but it seems hard to believe, since puberty is so important to development, and pharm stuff rarely doesnt come with a long list of negatives.

You can safeguard issues like your concerns but you will never eliminate them. Thay can't be a reason to deny good parents and drs from helping their kids. I don't believe that is a good arguement. It's like saying we shouldn't have cars because people drive under the influence.

The switches parents are doing for the most part of these young children you describe are done with the aid of therapists and non paermanent changes. The few that do this as a pet project are always going to happen in any realm of medicine. Parents who think there kids are allergic to everything (with no medical assement), pagentry as you say, theater dance math anything parents do the wrong thing sometimes. That is not a reason not to help the kids that need help.

I agree though there should be a system that has redundant safeguards in the medical system to help alleviate misdiagnosis and to get parents involved and educated.

I think the crux of the argument isn't the potential for bad parents, Drs or misdiagnosis. It is allowing a 4 year old to make this kind of call. I think any parent would agree that at 4, their kid shouldn't have been making decisions that will effect them until that are at least 18.

There is nothing measurable about this diagnosis..it's based on no more then a questionnaire and a few psyc evaluations...psyc evaluations of a 4 year old....at least where swapping is concerned.. And the hormone decisions are made on a questionnaire and the psyc evaluation of an 8 year old!!!!


For people to make these kind of decisions for a child, I want some form of definitive test. Maybe they find the gene that controls it, and a DNA test would work. Maybe they find a brain scan that can diagnosis it.

If gender identity and sexual orientation is genetic/biological (and I think it is) we will find a test one day.

They are already finding these things which just shows you haven't looked into the issue.

Like I said the studies are finding the kids diagnosed with GD or trans kids do have brain indicators that show the brain is responding to the gender of identification. That is showing the analysis by drs is correct.